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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by mair on March 30, 2005, at 11:23:47
In reply to Re: being told to believe something » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 10:00:27
I think where matters of faith are involved, there is a very fine line between stating something as a fact (the Rider told me or God spoke to me) and creating an inference that someone else will find offensive. Don't then you become the messenger of faith?
Imagine that an evangelist got up and started relating his personal experience - what his life was like before he became a believer, and how he came to become a believer and what his life has been like since he had this wonderful religious experience. I contend that he could stop right there and whatever proseletyzing message he wanted to make would be totally evident to those listening to him relate his personal "experience."
mair
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 12:33:49
In reply to It's too fine a line, posted by mair on March 30, 2005, at 11:23:47
But the faith board currently doesn't disallow those things at all.
Indeed if it did, there'd be no reason for a faith board.
(Although I still believe the real purpose of the faith board is to get faith off the other boards.)
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 12:58:32
In reply to It's too fine a line, posted by mair on March 30, 2005, at 11:23:47
And we're also allowed to post our positive experiences with medication or therapy and how they've changed our lives. That's a form of proselytizing too, I guess.
I don't think religion should be penalized. Just as we wouldn't say that anyone who wasn't in therapy or anyone who wasn't taking Cymbalta was doomed, we shouldn't say that anyone who isn't doing what works for us religion-wise is doomed. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to say what does work for us.
Especially on the faith board.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2005, at 23:00:24
In reply to Re: being told to believe something » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 10:00:27
> Imagine that an evangelist got up and started relating his personal experience - what his life was like before he became a believer, and how he came to become a believer and what his life has been like since he had this wonderful religious experience. I contend that he could stop right there and whatever proseletyzing message he wanted to make would be totally evident to those listening to him relate his personal "experience."
>
> mair> But the faith board currently doesn't disallow those things at all.
>
> DinahRight, I think her point was that what's currently allowed is enough and that it's not necessary to say things like:
> "The tenets of my faith (or the Rider) say that those of my faith should xxx".
Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 23:25:20
In reply to Re: being told to believe something, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2005, at 23:00:24
Sigh.
Well, I tried.
I'm on record saying that I think that allowing Lou to relate his experience with the Rider, and the change to the Faith board in general, would be a positive thing for the board in general. And lead to less perceived inequality in administrative decisions.
Best I can do.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2005, at 0:26:50
In reply to Re: being told to believe something » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 23:25:20
Okay, either I had a psychotic break or I dreamed this, or Lou's account of his experience with the Rider is in the archives, isn't it?
gg
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 4:25:08
In reply to Re: being told to believe something, posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2005, at 0:26:50
Not all of it. He felt he couldn't go forward with it because of the rules.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2005, at 11:57:19
In reply to Re: being told to believe something » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 4:25:08
Oh my, there's more? I didn't realize.
gg
Posted by rayww on April 1, 2005, at 11:22:23
In reply to Another request, Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 12:49:49
Lou, like many of us, needs a place where he can write safely. I realize you had intended the Faith board to be that safe place, but under general guidelines, it can't work. Lou wants to write. A reason he criticizes others is because of the way he perceives he has been treated by us. I have compassion for people who have needs like his.
You have quite a few new boards, and all seem to be successful. I'd like to propose one more just for people like Lou who have had an experiance they would like to share, but can't anywhere else. I would name the new board, "Experiance", because with the "a" instead of "e" it opens up the word to include things that may not be quite right with the world.
Guidelines:
- A board for the sharing of spiritual experiences that are or seem real.
- You may ask questions for clarification, but please do not criticize or put down what is very real and sacred to the writer.
Posted by 10derHeart on April 1, 2005, at 17:13:28
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on April 1, 2005, at 11:22:23
I'm - obviously - not Dr. Bob, rayww, but I was thinking - couldn't Lou (and others) post these experiences on the Writing board?
It seems to fit into the guidelines stated at the top...?
Posted by rayww on April 1, 2005, at 17:52:10
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob » rayww, posted by 10derHeart on April 1, 2005, at 17:13:28
> I'm - obviously - not Dr. Bob, rayww, but I was thinking - couldn't Lou (and others) post these experiences on the Writing board?
>
> It seems to fit into the guidelines stated at the top...?
I suppose Lou (and others) might share a short poem or something about the experience on the Writing Board, just as they might relate it to some of the other boards, but not to share the whole book.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 1, 2005, at 21:23:40
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on April 1, 2005, at 17:52:10
Not the whole book???
I have posted pretty lengthy stuff...
I hope I aren't just cluttering up the server...
But unless I get asked to stop I quite like putting stuff up there...
Why couldn't Lou post a book (in parts) over on writing to share his experience???
I think it is a nice idea.
I had suggested that he share over on social because the faith board added restrictions didn't apply there.
But writing.
Perfect.
Posted by Spoc on April 1, 2005, at 23:20:57
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob » rayww, posted by alexandra_k on April 1, 2005, at 21:23:40
> I think it is a nice idea.
> writing.
> Perfect.That occured to me too and I also think it sounds like a good solution. So I thought maybe since he hasn't, it may involve a principle for Lou...
Posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 3:16:30
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob, posted by Spoc on April 1, 2005, at 23:20:57
I'm not sure, Spoc. Sometimes people like to post their messages on certain boards because they feel like they know the people more of a particular board and want to share their experiences with those people. Maybe Lou wanted to share his experiences with the people he knows off the faith board.
But I don't know.
Posted by Spoc on April 2, 2005, at 11:32:32
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob » Spoc, posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 3:16:30
> I'm not sure, Spoc. Sometimes people like to post their messages on certain boards because they feel like they know the people more of a particular board and want to share their experiences with those people. Maybe Lou wanted to share his experiences with the people he knows off the faith board.
I thought it may partly be that, and/or that in his opinion, he is seeking what he feels is equal latitude, in that very specific place. But I also know I am definitely not up to speed enough on this matter to be surmising.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 16:33:50
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob » alexandra_k, posted by Spoc on April 2, 2005, at 11:32:32
I don't know much about it either - but that has never stopped me speculating before ;-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2005, at 20:39:54
In reply to Re: Another request, Dr. Bob » rayww, posted by 10derHeart on April 1, 2005, at 17:13:28
> couldn't Lou (and others) post these experiences on the Writing board?
>
> It seems to fit into the guidelines stated at the top...?It's nice to see Lou getting some support, but I'm afraid those guidelines include being civil...
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 20:58:08
In reply to Re: Another request, posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2005, at 20:39:54
> I'm afraid those guidelines include being civil...
Oh. I didn't realise there was a more general problem with incivility. I thought it was more to do with the added restrictions that were specific to the faith board...
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 21:00:05
In reply to Re: Another request, posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2005, at 20:39:54
Couldn't you have found a more sensitive way to put that?
Saying that Lou relating his experience doesn't conform to Faith board guidelines, or Babble guidelines is surely more sensitive than saying that it is uncivil? After all, Lou is speaking of an intensely personal religious experience that changed his life.
I take it you have abandoned the idea of modifying Faith board guidelines?
Can you help us, Dr. Bob? We wish to convey to Lou that we understand his feelings and wish to hear what he wants to communicate. But we're stymied, and you're in the best position to help us come up with solutions.
Posted by 10derHeart on April 2, 2005, at 21:03:38
In reply to Re: Another request, posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2005, at 20:39:54
>> It's nice to see Lou getting some support, but I'm afraid those guidelines include being civil...
>
> BobOkay. So...then there is something that will be inherently un-civil in what Lou would post about the Rider on Writing, correct? The same issue that's been discussed before about why it can't be said on Faith....? (trying to catch up here :))
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 21:10:25
In reply to Re: Another request » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on April 2, 2005, at 21:03:38
Only insofar as it relates to what the Rider told Lou that he must do, in the form of worshipping him, that Dr. Bob believes might put down other people who worship a god or gods differently, or don't worship a god or gods at all.
I disagree, since the Rider, to my knowledge, did not say that everyone must do what he's telling Lou to do. Or that anyone who didn't do what he's telling Lou to do would go to Hell or anything.
And if the Rider did say either of those things, I agree that Lou shouldn't post them. Not because they're inherently uncivil (because many religions claim that they're the Only Path) but because they violate Faith board guidelines of claiming the Only Path. Not that I'm aware that the Rider did claim that the Gates were the Only Path...
Posted by alexandra_k on April 2, 2005, at 21:16:45
In reply to Re: Another request » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2005, at 21:10:25
> And if the Rider did say either of those things, I agree that Lou shouldn't post them. Not because they're inherently uncivil (because many religions claim that they're the Only Path) but because they violate Faith board guidelines of claiming the Only Path. Not that I'm aware that the Rider did claim that the Gates were the Only Path...
Yup. I am confused. I have posted about atheism on different boards. Not explicitly on the faith board (because of the special guidelines there) but on other boards. I don't see how Lou's stuff is uncivil, and I think it is questionable as to whether it is even against the faith board guidelines (as Dinah has been saying).???
Dr Bob???
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2005, at 7:29:11
In reply to Re: being told to believe something, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2005, at 5:22:35
Dr. Hsiung,
You wrote in this thread which has to do in some way with why you will not allow me to post the post in question, [...i'm afraid if people post... God telling them to believe things, then others might think that it applies to them, too?...].
There is a section by you in your FAQ that addresses as to who to believe, which could easily be interpreted that there are differnt points of view expressed here and that expressing different points of view is encouraged.. The FAQ also writes that [...different points of view are encouraged here...] and also writes something like that you do not endorse what others write, only what you write.
The post of the {quoting} of the song,[...{nothing but} the blood of Jesus will wash away my sins...] is the foundation of popular Christianity for the poster also has the quote on the link to the song,[...{without} the shedding of blood, there is {no} remission of sins...]. That is the pont of view of most popular christiandom denominations.
Could not others think that [...{only} the blood of Jesus will wash away sins ...] when they read the quote of the song, mean that it could apply to them in as much as you write that you have a fear that others will think what I propose to write will in some way cause them to think that it applies to them even though others here write that [...nothing but the blood of Jesus...] is to (him) like my proposed quote applies to me?
As far as your {fear} goes, are you saying that you will allow the Christian perspective to be posted here in a quote of a song without you haveing a fear of others thinking that it applies to them, and that you will restrain the Jewish perspective, and others that have the same perspective, in my proposed post, in a quote of a spiritual experiance, so that your fear is that others could think that the Jewish perspective could apply to them?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2005, at 8:01:20
In reply to Re: being told to believe something, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2005, at 23:00:24
Dr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...it is {not necessary} to say things like..the Rider say...].
Necessary for what?
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 5, 2005, at 9:06:27
In reply to Lou's response to Dr. Hsiung's remarks » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on April 4, 2005, at 8:01:20
> are you saying ... that you will restrain the Jewish perspective, and others that have the same perspective
No, that's not what I'm saying. I apologize for not being more sensitive before. But some ways of expressing some aspects of some beliefs don't conform to the guidelines here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7889.html
Sorry, but I'm not yet convinced that those guidelines should be changed...
> > > he could stop right there and whatever proseletyzing message he wanted to make would be totally evident
> >
> > I think her point was that what's currently allowed is enough and that it's not necessary to say things like:
> >
> > > "The tenets of my faith (or the Rider) say that those of my faith should xxx".
>
> Necessary for what?Necessary for getting a message across?
Bob
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