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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 46. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 7:02:01
To the administration,
I am requesting that you write a determination as to if the following is acceptable or not in relation to the guidlines of the forum.
The poster writes,[...the Big Cheese...].
Lou Pilder
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050323/msgs/476100.html
Posted by Toph on March 27, 2005, at 7:31:12
In reply to Lou's request to the administration-defam?, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 7:02:01
> The poster writes,[...the Big Cheese...].
> Lou Pilder
>Lou, in Wisconsin, that's a big compliment.
Toph
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 10:09:49
In reply to Lou's request to the administration-defam?, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 7:02:01
The poster is referring to Dr. Bob, Lou. I doubt that Dr. Bob would feel defamed by the reference to him as the top dog, the big cheese, or the man in charge. But if he does, I'm sure he'll handle it when he gets back.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 27, 2005, at 10:31:42
In reply to Re: Lou's request to the administration-defam?, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 10:09:49
Oh my. Well, clearly given my post on the above thread, I do not think that 10derheart meant it as an insult, nor do I perceive it as such. But I cannot speak for Dr. Bob.
gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 10:37:46
In reply to Re: Lou's request to the administration-defam?, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 10:09:49
Dinah,
You wrote,[...I doubt...referrence to him...the big cheese...But if he does...he will...when he returns...].
I am not requesting that a determination be made on the basis as to what the person considers of the idiom toward him, but if the use of {...the big cheese...] is acceptable or not {in relation to the guidlines of the forum}.
If Dr. Hsiung allows himself to be referred to as {the big cheese}, does that mean that I would have to allow posters here to refer to me as {the big cheese?}
I have heard this expression and it has not always been used in a complimentary manner toward a person when I have heard it used toward a person.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 12:36:34
In reply to Lou's reply toDinah-bgches » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 10:37:46
I on the contrary have never heard it used in a non-complimentary fashion. So if anyone does, perchance, use it towards you, you might want to remember that not everyone considers it an insult.
Maybe someone could do a google search. My favorite phraseology site disappeared. :((
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 17:54:32
In reply to Re: Lou's reply toDinah-bgches » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 12:36:34
I think it tends to be a compliment.
But sometimes it is used ironically or sarcastically (like most words or phrases).
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 18:37:37
In reply to Re: Lou's reply toDinah-bgches, posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 17:54:32
a_k,
You wrote,[...it tends to be a compliment...].
Could you clarify how referrring to Dr. Hsiung as [...The big cheese...] could be a compliment?
Lou
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 18:42:23
In reply to Lou's response to alexandra_k's post -bgchescomp » alexandra_k, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 18:37:37
Oh. Well it is like saying 'the boss' or something like that. It could be used affectionately.
However you spell that!
Actually, FWIW I think in that case it was used sort of affectionately. I don't think it was mocking or sarcastic at all.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 18:57:02
In reply to Re: Lou's response to alexandra_k's post -bgchescomp » Lou Pilder, posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 18:42:23
a_k You wrote,[...affectionatly...]
Can we look at the following?
In your opinion, are there any of the following that could be referred to as [...The big cheese..] as an {affectionate} referrence?
A. Hitler
B. Charles Manson
C. The Pope
D. Rebee Schneerson
E. Sigmund Freud
F. Dr. John Grohol
G. Elton John
H. Huey Long
K. Britteny Spears
L. Jerry Falwell
M. Hilllery Clinton
N. none of the above
P. a combination of the above
Q. all of the above
R. something else
Lou
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 19:34:48
In reply to Lou's response to alexandra_k's post -afectbgches » alexandra_k, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 18:57:02
Jeepers Lou!
You do seem to like designing multi-guess quizes
:-).Personally, they make me feel nervous. Sometimes it can be hard to pick the 'best answer'...
I guess the 'big cheese' could be used to refer to anyone who the utterer (speaker / writer) considers to be the best or the top or the boss of something. If someone felt that way about any of the people you mentioned then I guess they might call any of them the 'big cheese'.
Ever thought of doing philosophy of language??
You would probably be quite good at it...
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 19:37:11
In reply to Re: Lou's response to alexandra_k's post -afectbgches » Lou Pilder, posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 19:34:48
I don't know...
I am wondering whether it might be more synonymous with 'the boss'...
So it might have a more restricted usage...
Anybody else want to join in???
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:11
In reply to Re: Lou's response to alexandra_k's post -afectbgches » Lou Pilder, posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 19:34:48
a_k,
You wrote,[...considers to be the boss...if anyone {felt that way} about any of the mentioned...might call any of them the big cheese...].
Could you clarify what it would mean if the person {did not feel that way} and referred to the person as the big cheese? And with that, could you clarify as to how one could know that they felt that way?
Lou
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 27, 2005, at 19:49:01
In reply to Lou's reply to alexandra_k-fltbgchese » alexandra_k, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:11
I feel the same way as Alexandra, Lou. I've never heard "The big cheese" used in a mean way.
It's like saying "The head honcho" kind of.
It's not usually something you would say about a famous person, unless they are in charge of something in particular. If Britney Spears was in charge of organizing a charity event and you wanted to become involved, someone might say "You have to talk to Britney, she's the big cheese"
Posted by 10derHeart on March 27, 2005, at 19:57:03
In reply to Re: Lou's response to alexandra_k's post -bgchescomp » Lou Pilder, posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 18:42:23
Lou, et al,
I was referring to Dr. Bob.
I do use that expression, as well as others as mentioned above by Dinah, as acknowledgements that someone is in charge, the boss, the top person to decide things, etc. I've never thought about whether it's exactly a "compliment," but considering the opposite might be "insult," then it certainly is one.
And Toph, you (sort of) joke, but I do hang around a lot with a dear friend from Wisconsin, and I think she tends to say this a lot....
Also, being teasing and a bit of a "silly" expression, (i.e., comparing a person to a food) it is affectionate. I don't think I tease people I don't feel some level of affection or respect for - that could tend to turn mean.
My intention was not to be mocking or sarcastic (thanks, alex) in any, way, shape or form. I hope the day does not come where I address Dr. Bob, or anyone else, in a negative tone on these boards. But, since I'm far from perfect, if I do so, I'm comforted to know the way we "police" each other, someone would let me know. (That was NOT sarcasm - I sincerely appreciate the civility guidelines.)
I was trying to gently help two other posters, by reminding them their own gentle teasing could be misunderstood.
Lou, I'm sorry if I was confusing, vague or anything by choosing that expression.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:13:26
In reply to Re: Lou's response to alexandra_k's post -bgchescomp, posted by 10derHeart on March 27, 2005, at 19:57:03
10derHeart,
You wrote,[...teasing could be misunderstood...].
The idiom, [...the big cheese...]can mean diffeent things as to how people concieve cheese. What if the person using the idiom was thinking of the cheese as Limburger?
Lou
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 20:36:36
In reply to Lou's reply to 10derHeart-bgcheslimbrgr » 10derHeart, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:13:26
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-big1.htm
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/64350.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/72/C0267200.html
The accepted standard meaning seems pretty clear cut. When an expression has a widely accepted meaning, it seems only fair to interpret it by that unless it is clearly not meant that way, don't you think?
Otherwise everyone would be speaking their own language and their own idiom, and meaningful conversation would be difficult at best.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 27, 2005, at 20:40:59
In reply to Lou's reply to 10derHeart-bgcheslimbrgr » 10derHeart, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:13:26
> 10derHeart,
> You wrote,[...teasing could be misunderstood...].
> The idiom, [...the big cheese...]can mean diffeent things as to how people concieve cheese. What if the person using the idiom was thinking of the cheese as Limburger?
> Lou
>That's interesting, Lou. I have no good answer for you. I don't remember ever thinking of Limburger cheese - ever in my life. When I use that expression, I honestly have no clue what variety of cheese it implies, or even what possible symbolism "cheese" itself has surrounding one being "in charge," etc.
"Food" for thought? (but not Limburger, please...I love cheese but am too scared to taste that one...;-))
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 20:51:21
In reply to Lou's reply to alexandra_k-fltbgchese » alexandra_k, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:11
> Could you clarify what it would mean if the person {did not feel that way} and referred to the person as the big cheese?
Then I guess they would be being ironic or sarcastic. Though gentle joking might be somewhere in between... But with gentle joking the intent is friendly and respectful..
>And with that, could you clarify as to how one could know that they felt that way?
You could ask 'did you mean that to be mocking or sarcastic?'. Which may give them the chance to respond accordingly. It is a tricky matter to figure out peoples intentions (what they are trying to achieve by their use of language). Here the principle of charity is relevant: when in doubt try to assume the best.
>The accepted standard meaning seems pretty clear cut. When an expression has a widely accepted meaning, it seems only fair to interpret it by that unless it is clearly not meant that way, don't you think?Yup.
Principle of charity :-)>Otherwise everyone would be speaking their own language and their own idiom, and meaningful conversation would be difficult at best.
Indeed!
There are a couple of different things going on with language...
- There is word (lexical) meaning.
- There is sentance (syntactical) meaning.
- There is speakers meaning (what the speaker means by their words) - which is aka pragmatic meaning or meaning in context.The first two are standard meanings. We need to agree to use words with their standard meanings as best we can. If everybody used words with their own idiosyncratic use in mind then communication would indeed break down.
Wittgenstein famously argued that there could not be such a thing as an idiolect (a one-person language) without the backdrop of a common language. It would be impossible to develop an idiolect without reference to a common language.
But I won't burden you guys with the details :-)
I guess we just need to go with standard (ie literal word and sentance) meaning unless the context clearly indicates otherwise.
Charity and co.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 20:58:09
In reply to Lou's reply to 10derHeart-bgcheslimbrgr » 10derHeart, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:13:26
> The idiom, [...the big cheese...]can mean diffeent things as to how people concieve cheese.
The speakers meaning would alter as different people would mean different things by their words.
The standard meaning would remain the same, however.
> What if the person using the idiom was thinking of the cheese as Limburger?
Is that a way of saying that the person using the idiom intended to convey an insult by using the expression? If so then the speakers meaning would be different from the standard meaning.
But we need to assume that what the speaker means by their words is the same as the standard meaning - unless the context clearly indicates otherwise.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:58:48
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to 10derHeart-bgcheslimbrgr, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 20:36:36
Dinah,
Your first offered link at the end wrote that the idiom is not always considered complimentary and could be considered to have derisive undertones.
Not evryone thinks of idioms in all the same way. A poster here from France brought that up in the referrence to the idiom ,[....take with a grain of salt...]. I agree with that poster that it depends on how a person knows about what the idiom could be which they may have no knowlege of its origin or literary meaning. That is why I had requested that we make a determination as to acceptability hear for the use of idioms because people can understand the meaning of idioms in different ways. In this case, since we have a world-wide audiance, there could be people that perhaps think thsat the idiom in question is not complmentary. I do not favor the use of idioms in this mental-health setting because of the different possible interptreataions that others could think and the nature of the population of the community that we have to consider sensitivity.
Lou
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 20:59:23
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to 10derHeart-bgcheslimbrgr, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 20:36:36
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 27, 2005, at 21:00:06
In reply to Lou's response to Dinah's post-bgchese~alwyscomp » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:58:48
Posted by alexandra_k on March 27, 2005, at 21:05:08
In reply to Lou's response to Dinah's post-bgchese~alwyscomp » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:58:48
> Your first offered link at the end wrote that the idiom is not always considered complimentary and could be considered to have derisive undertones.
Most of the language can be used ironically or sarcastically. If we banned anything that 'could' be used that way then it would be the end of Babble, Lou. We wouldn't be able to write anymore.
:-(> Not evryone thinks of idioms in all the same way.
What someone thinks idioms mean (speakers meaning) can be different from what idioms actually mean (standard meaning). Sometimes there is more than one standard meaning. Charity again... Choose the meaning that is most charitable unless to do so would mean that you can't make much sense of the post.
If Babble is too different from the real world then it doesn't really do us any favours with respect to dealing with the real world.
The more restrictive it gets the less comfortable people feel to communicate freely.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2005, at 21:10:24
In reply to Lou's response to Dinah's post-bgchese~alwyscomp » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2005, at 20:58:48
Well, thank heavens for google!!!
It's relatively easy now to figure out the standard accepted meaning of phrases and idioms, whatever country you're from.
Go to google.com.
Type in the phrase or idiom in quotation marks ("bees knees" for example) and then the word etymology. So for example ["bees knees" etymology}. Google will bring you to any number of sites that devote themselves to the study of language and idiom. :)
Ain't technology grand?
And as Alexandra said, it's only charitable to assume that someone means what they said unless it's clear that it doesn't fit in context.
Hope that helped, Lou. (Plus the writer of the post made clear that she didn't mean Limberger, and I'm sure you accept her explanation as the truth.)
However, should someone call you "The Big Cheese", Lou, it would be fair enough for you to say that you've never been fond of the expression, and could they call you {insert acceptable synonym here} instead. If someone did that, I'd be polite enough to comply. I might not understand, but I'd be polite enough to comply. I'm sure most people would, aren't you?
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