![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by shar on September 17, 2002, at 1:05:06
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please?, posted by trouble on September 16, 2002, at 21:58:03
> who is trouble offending here mark, the child or the daddy or their neighbors who are too refined to give a good goddamn?
>
in this instance, me. The language was offensive to me. But then, given that you are a bright person, you probably suspected your language would offend some people here.And, to the people here who were sexually molested by their parents, OUCH. I want to shield them all from that post.
This is NOT to say THEY would want to be shielded. It is just a protective urge on my part.
>why coddle outright idiocy? how will people learn that way?
>
Robin, you are too bright to believe that there is only one way to learn, and that everyone will learn from one approach.I grant you that some of the most offensive, goriest, nastiest, grossest, most disgusting, horrifying, shocking material is remembered well; the Humane Society of the U.S. (or could have been the ASPCA) had an ad that was an EXCELLENT illustration of disposable animals in our society, but it was pulled because people couldn't stomach it. Maybe they were coddling idiocy to pull it, or maybe they pulled it because it was so off-putting people could no longer look in their direction and they were losing their ability to educate because of it.
Here, people's psyches are involved, and that's worth considering.
Shar
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Posted by trouble on September 17, 2002, at 1:18:11
In reply to Good heavens, trouble. What have you been up to? » trouble, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2002, at 0:12:47
> No, perhaps you'd better not answer, since I'd like to see you stick around for a while. :)
>
> Perhaps you could bring me up to date on how you've been doing on Social. And in language that this sadly unintellectual, left brained, horribly literal mind can comprehend?
>
> Dinah
> (who feels terribly inferior at the moment for my lack of intellectual prowess, but who is genuinely interested in my former philosophical debater's wellbeing)
my boyfriend just sent me to your post here dinah as a refereshing dose of friendly graciousness. i dunno, maybe he knows what i've been up to. we're geting married, i'm giddy i guess.
take care you,robin
Posted by trouble on September 17, 2002, at 1:21:09
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please?, posted by shar on September 17, 2002, at 1:05:06
if anyone has earned the right to call childfuckers by their name it would be who?
hm?
who's earned that right?> Here, people's psyches are involved, and that's worth considering.
right, think about that, thanks.robin
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Posted by judy1 on September 17, 2002, at 1:22:01
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please? » judy1, posted by Mark H. on September 16, 2002, at 19:58:34
I think Shar stated it perfectly in her post, I felt shocked and ill when I opened trouble's post, and I don't believe that is the intention of this site. Thank you for doing what you could. take care, judy
Posted by trouble on September 17, 2002, at 1:34:38
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please? » Mark H., posted by judy1 on September 17, 2002, at 1:22:01
> I think Shar stated it perfectly in her post, I felt shocked and ill when I opened trouble's post, and I don't believe that is the intention of this site. Thank you for doing what you could. take care, judy
yeah and i felt shocked and ill when i opened my sleeping 7 year old mouth to the rammings of an adult penis, but that's just my pathology i guess.
trouble
Posted by trouble on September 17, 2002, at 2:14:34
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please?, posted by shar on September 17, 2002, at 1:05:06
> > who is trouble offending here mark, the child or the daddy or their neighbors who are too refined to give a good goddamn?
> >
> in this instance, me.the word childfucker is empowering to those who were indoctrinated from the git to keep their secrets in the family.
empowering.
this offends you?
makes sense to me, it really does.>>>> The language was offensive to me. But then, given that you are a bright person, you probably suspected your language would offend some people here.
i could give a shit less what my language does to people, my language is about me.
>>>>> And, to the people here who were sexually molested by their parents, OUCH. I want to shield them all from that post.shield them? take a poll, find out who is moving forward with their sexuality and who is not, consider which group comes up the hard boiled and pitiless truthtellers among them. that post was a LOVE-OFFERING to those a few steps behind on the path. this path belongs to us, by the way, we are the authorities on this subject, humility is expected from those who visit.
>>>>>>> This is NOT to say THEY would want to be shielded. It is just a protective urge on my part.protect them? from what? it already happened to them. you think recognition hurts the unrecognized?
> >why coddle outright idiocy? how will people learn that way?
> Robin, you are too bright to believe that there is only one way to learn, and that everyone will learn from one approach.people come away from mark's administrative post with their defense mechanisms fully intact, a very sturdy impediment to learning, ya think?
>>>>> I grant you that some of the most offensive, goriest, nastiest, grossest, most disgusting, horrifying, shocking material is remembered well;not well enough!!!!
>>>>>> the Humane Society of the U.S. (or could have been the ASPCA) had an ad that was an EXCELLENT illustration of disposable animals in our society, but it was pulled because people couldn't stomach it.
very apt analogy.
i am not disposable, despite ubiquitious attempts to rub out indelicate aspects of my experience by good people who cannot stomach today what they did nothing to prevent when i, myself could not. childfuckers depend on these rarified collaborators, count on it.>>>>Maybe they were coddling idiocy to pull the ad,
>>>no, they were bending to popular opinion, the idiocy i spoke of referred to idiocy.
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Posted by trouble on September 17, 2002, at 2:28:59
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please?, posted by shar on September 17, 2002, at 1:05:06
> > who is trouble offending here mark, the child or the daddy or their neighbors who are too refined to give a good goddamn?
> >
> in this instance, me.maybe i should have just stopped here.
where else is there to go?trouble
Posted by Phil on September 17, 2002, at 8:14:47
In reply to on second thought...., posted by trouble on September 17, 2002, at 2:28:59
Many of us here had very tough childhoods, all kinds of abuse.
I don't hear anger when you post here, I hear hurt. Maybe someday you'll come to grips with what you can't change. I'm still trying.
You can be the most angry person on the planet or you can turn that anger into helping other children who have been hurt. It's black and white, trouble.
You're loved here by many people and most, I'm sure, would love to hear serenity in your posts instead of morning DJ shock value.
You were abused by a sick person but you can come to grips with it. Or you can remain as you are. It's not my business but it is my business if I have to read posts from someone who thinks they are the only goddamned person on this planet that's been fucked out of a fair shot. Get over it.I'll take 2 weeks to be able to say that.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2002, at 10:10:25
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, please?, posted by trouble on September 17, 2002, at 1:21:09
> if anyone has earned the right to call xxx by their name it would be who?
> hm?
> who's earned that right?It would be you, but your freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place. I asked you not to use language that could offend others, so I'm going to block you from posting again. Last time it was for 4 weeks, so this time it's for 8.
Bob
PS: To submit anonymous feedback on this administrative decision:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-open/surveys?id=978661To discuss this feedback experiment:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020725/msgs/7456.html
Posted by wendy b. on September 17, 2002, at 10:15:53
In reply to Re: on second thought.... » trouble, posted by Phil on September 17, 2002, at 8:14:47
Phil,
I write for myself and for (at least) two other people who are currently blocked, and so cannot voice their opinions...
I hope you get blocked for your post to Trouble, copied below. (In fact, I don't see why Bob jumps all over some people, but allows this post to stay, but we'll leave that to another post. ) I think what you wrote is one of the most insensitive messages I've ever read here. I hate to paraphrase Bob, BUT, as he likes to say, no matter if the other person offends you, retaliation is not the way to go about solving the problem. It just escalates further and further.
To say to Robin: "Get over it," is as unsupportive as you can get. Personally, I know that Robin has moved FAR away from her former life, and is indeed moving forward and healing. So the hell what if she's not doing it at YOUR pace, at the pace to which you think she should be moving? What if she's having a set-back, huh? Or maybe she's quite well, in fact -- what if this is one of her moments of clarity, where she sees the horror at its most ugly? And you wish, out of your own desire not to think about 'such things,' to have her just shut up and/or go away.
Congratulations on your own movement forward in your pursuit of mental health. Everyone should be just like you...
Wendy
ps:
"How dare someone challenge someone else's personal pain, as if it all equalled out in the end...?"
> Many of us here had very tough childhoods, all kinds of abuse.
> I don't hear anger when you post here, I hear hurt. Maybe someday you'll come to grips with what you can't change. I'm still trying.
> You can be the most angry person on the planet or you can turn that anger into helping other children who have been hurt. It's black and white, trouble.
> You're loved here by many people and most, I'm sure, would love to hear serenity in your posts instead of morning DJ shock value.
> You were abused by a sick person but you can come to grips with it. Or you can remain as you are. It's not my business but it is my business if I have to read posts from someone who thinks they are the only goddamned person on this planet that's been fucked out of a fair shot. Get over it.
>
> I'll take 2 weeks to be able to say that.
Posted by ~Alii~ on September 17, 2002, at 10:31:27
In reply to Re: on second thought.... » trouble, posted by Phil on September 17, 2002, at 8:14:47
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2002, at 13:37:13
In reply to Re: pretty nasty, Phil, posted by wendy b. on September 17, 2002, at 10:15:53
> I hope you get blocked for your post to Trouble
I don't consider saying that you hope someone gets blocked to be supportive. Or referring to them, even if just in the subject line, as nasty. If you disagree with someone, please either just email me directly or try to find a civil way to express it here.
> (In fact, I don't see why Bob jumps all over some people, but allows this post to stay, but we'll leave that to another post. ) ...
>
> To say to Robin: "Get over it," is as unsupportive as you can get.I thought that overall, his post was caring and empathic, so I let that one sentence go. But it certainly was a judgment call. And of course my judgment is idiosyncratic...
Bob
PS: To submit anonymous feedback on this administrative decision:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-open/surveys?id=978739To discuss this feedback experiment:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020725/msgs/7456.html
Posted by kiddo on September 17, 2002, at 15:03:56
In reply to Re: please be civil » wendy b. » Alii, posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2002, at 13:37:13
I don't have time to say much right now, but I'll follow up later.
This really ticks me off....
********************
.......It's not my business but it is my business if I have to read posts from someone who thinks they are the only goddamned person on this planet that's been fucked out of a fair shot. Get over it.
I'll take 2 weeks to be able to say that.
***********************
1.) What happened to *you don't have to read anyone eles posts? I wasn't aware that he *had* to read her posts. You told me that very thing when I had an issue with another member.
2.) How is the phrase "Get over it." supportive or educational, especially since there have been previous PBC's and/or blocks-no time research it right now....
3.) It's obvious he knew what he was doing, saying, whatever because of the comment at the bottom....What happened to intent?
I'll have to continue this post later. I'll start a new thread because I'm far from finished on this topic and the board in general.
Since I haven't been giving my 'feedback' on this or any topic of late, I would like to think that what I have to say on the subject would be heard....I don't know why I have the feeling it won't though...maybe I have ESP after all
Kiddo
Posted by ~Alii~ on September 17, 2002, at 17:02:58
In reply to Re: please be civil » wendy b. » Alii, posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2002, at 13:37:13
...entire post. Telling anyone to just get over it without having any understanding of the context in which someone has come to be how they now are. Read Ellavon, read her own site troublewaits, dig deeper to understand that, imo, she is trying to express the truth as she sees it which is uncomfortable for some of the more sensitive people of the board.
Not everyone can always colour within the lines and especially those of us with mental illness and trauma fight different battles.
By allowing that one sentence to go is showing total ignorance of posting syles, personalities and any actual knowledge of any of us as your test subjects.
Disgustedly,
Alii
>>>>> (In fact, I don't see why Bob jumps all over some people, but allows this post to stay, but we'll leave that to another post. ) ...
To say to Robin: "Get over it," is as unsupportive as you can get. <<<<<-- wendy b.
>>>>> I thought that overall, his post was caring and empathic, so I let that one sentence go. But it certainly was a judgment call. And of course my judgment is idiosyncratic...<<<<<--Bob
Posted by wendy b. on September 17, 2002, at 18:19:24
In reply to Re: please be civil » wendy b. » Alii, posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2002, at 13:37:13
Bob,
I still stand by what I said. So, no, a post can say all sorts of nicey-nice things, and then really HIT a person, and I think Phil did just that: starts out cooing understanding and pity, and then - BAM! Besides the "get over it" comment, which I've already critiqued, calling someone's post (however unpleasant one might believe it to be), "morning DJ shock value," is rather unsupportive, in my book. The sentences at the end contained "language that could offend others" (direct quote from the civility rules), something you've reprimanded people for many, many times.
>It's not my business but it is my business if I have to read posts from someone who thinks they are the only goddamned person on this planet that's been fucked out of a fair shot. Get over it.
Phil could have just stuck to the first part of his post, and said, "I wish you could get over it," even. And that would have been so much better, wouldn't you agree? Kiddo's response about how Phil's intent is clear (he indicates he can stand to be blocked for 2 weeks, he just needed to get that off his chest) is absolutely right. How can you let this go, and then turn around and PBC & block people left and right for using harmless humor and quotations? All the gratuitous "I'm-the-boss-around-here" check-mates are driving many of us to distraction. Your motivation, in cases like this one, is totally beyond my comprehension.
Wendy> > I hope you get blocked for your post to Trouble
>
> I don't consider saying that you hope someone gets blocked to be supportive. Or referring to them, even if just in the subject line, as nasty. If you disagree with someone, please either just email me directly or try to find a civil way to express it here.
>
> > (In fact, I don't see why Bob jumps all over some people, but allows this post to stay, but we'll leave that to another post. ) ...
> >
> > To say to Robin: "Get over it," is as unsupportive as you can get.
>
> I thought that overall, his post was caring and empathic, so I let that one sentence go. But it certainly was a judgment call. And of course my judgment is idiosyncratic...
>
> Bob
>
> PS: To submit anonymous feedback on this administrative decision:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-open/surveys?id=978739
>
> To discuss this feedback experiment:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020725/msgs/7456.html
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 17, 2002, at 19:57:35
In reply to The one sentence you let go was the crux of the... » Dr. Bob, posted by ~Alii~ on September 17, 2002, at 17:02:58
> By allowing that one sentence to go is showing total ignorance of posting syles, personalities and any actual knowledge of any of us as your test subjects.
These (subjective) decisions are based on what you post, not your personality or "actual" knowledge of you. Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. I've already asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: To submit anonymous feedback on this administrative decision:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-open/surveys?id=xxxTo discuss this feedback experiment:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020725/msgs/7456.html
Posted by Phil on September 17, 2002, at 20:13:25
In reply to Re: you're missing the point entirely » Dr. Bob, posted by wendy b. on September 17, 2002, at 18:19:24
Please read trouble's posts just on this thread. Please read the others about waking up at 7 years old w/ a penis in her mouth. Look at her response to judy, judy was already shocked.
Try these:
http://www.dr.bob.org/babble/psycho/20020829/msgs/1076.htmlhttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020908/msgs/30309.html
I'm nasty? If Robin was a new poster, I guess you would have supported her?
Oh, she's been around the boards and has had problems so we support her posting this?So I'm the bad guy because what I was telling her was to get over was the anger she was obviously eaten up with. Anyone in that short of time posting a lot of angry stuff needs someone not to say, Hi, glad to see you." Her posts were incredible angry, in your face, look how bad I'm screwed up..try this detail. She needs someone to say,"What's hurting?" Not, she can write whatever she wants.
Robin's and my path aren't that different but I can't come here and say what shocking memories are at the top of my list. You know, it's hard to put your drunk mother to bed while she's making innuendos about sex. Makes a young boy very uncomfortable. Should I have even said that here? No! But I'm trying to make a point.Whatever mental illness you arrive here withis a combination of nature and nurture or just bad luck. I haven't felt real fortunate to be medicated for the past 20 years. What you gonna do?
I think Robin needs help now. Not just congrats on the marriage. I've had that level of anger several times and I can tell you that's when I'm closest to killing myself.
If I implied,"Get over your disease instead of get over this anger, I apologize." Trouble deals with some bad demons, everyone here is empathetic to that. But, like it or not, you can't come here spewing anger at someone who's done nothing to deserve it. We have to be accountable.
My two older brother's are all I have in this life. Years ago, they would say,'Stop taking those pills, that crap is hurting you. Just deal with it and move on." I had to get livid several times before they would just..how are the meds Phil? By the way, we love you very much. When you feel better we can... That's a far cry from get over it.
I was mad at Robin today and had just woke up. It was one of my most sincere posts on this board. I got scared enough to get mad and say..Get over it(the anger and reminders)and, for once, stick around long enough to let us love you, damnit. Stop shooting yourself in the foot.
Robin and I communicated thru email for a while, I still believe and want to be her friend. If I hurt you today, Robin, I'm very sorry. It doesn't mean I don't love you.
I'll take an 8 week block too if either Wendy or Alii think I should. You've got my word.
My apologies,
Phil
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2002, at 20:56:07
In reply to Re: you're missing the point entirely:Wendy Alii, posted by Phil on September 17, 2002, at 20:13:25
I had written a post earlier and decided not to hit submit in a combination of just not feeling well and a sense of unease about posting when I didn't have a history with abuse.
But basically what I wanted to say was that I sensed the sincere goodwill behind your post to trouble, and I hadn't considered it uncivil, taken in it's entirety. It might have been better to have worded your last sentence, as Wendy suggested "I hope you can get over this", but the rest of the post was full of what seemed to me to be genuine concern and empathy, expressed in your customary direct way. And since trouble has posted one or two times to me similarly direct posts with sincere goodwill, I rather thought she would appreciate your directness as well. Of course, I can't speak for trouble, but that was my impression.
Certainly I detected no cooing understanding or pity (and have a hard time picturing you expressing cooing understanding).
On the other hand, I do care about trouble, and my good wishes on her marriage were sincere. It was nice to hear her describe herself as giddy.
Posted by Phil on September 17, 2002, at 21:10:16
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Phil, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2002, at 20:56:07
Yeah, I didn't mean to take away from those good wishes and I'm happy she's found the one.
She's very intelligent and will sort out anything that's thrown her way.
Posted by shar on September 18, 2002, at 0:27:16
In reply to Re: pretty nasty, Phil, posted by wendy b. on September 17, 2002, at 10:15:53
> "How dare someone challenge someone else's personal pain, as if it all equalled out in the end...?"
>I think this is something we would all benefit by remembering. IMO, nobody here can really challenge anyone else's pain, or say one form of abuse is ultimately more damaging than another, or that one mental illness is 'worse' than another.
Two people can have the same life circumstances, but because of nature, nurture, DNA, RNA, biochemistry, metaphysics and more, have an extremely different outcome. Or have extremely different life circumstances and end up with almost identical outcomes. It makes no sense to try to say one pain is worse than another because it is not the same pain, not the same person, we will never know what it was like for them, what their strengths were that kept them alive, any of that. They--life circumstances--can be heartbreaking to hear, but 'pain' needs to be respected 'as is.'
Some people who got here--to these boards--after a normal, loving upbringing, are suffering as much in the here-and-now from their mental dis-ease as anyone else. It's possible that the onset of the worst disease is not preceded by early abuse. But we can see that person suffering.
It seems the best approach is to acknowledge that we all have pain in our lives, we look back on different lives, and at times or all the time, our pain can be acute. Beyond that, I believe, a true comparison of whose pain is worse is impossible.
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2002, at 11:53:45
In reply to Re: you're missing the point entirely:Wendy Alii, posted by Phil on September 17, 2002, at 20:13:25
> This was to indicate 1) That I was out of line and and was sorry 2) Indicate I am still reasonable am not trying to start WWIII with Dr Bob. I suspect he got this subtext.
Got it, thanks. And I'm sorry if I've been pushing back too hard when people have disagreed. I'm not going to stop completely, I do have my ideas about what I'd like this site to be like, but I'll try harder just to "live and let live"...
Bob
Posted by kiddo on September 18, 2002, at 12:00:55
In reply to Re: subtext, posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2002, at 11:53:45
> Got it, thanks. And I'm sorry if I've been pushing back too hard when people have disagreed. I'm not going to stop completely, I do have my ideas about what I'd like this site to be like, but I'll try harder just to "live and let live"...
>
> Bob
If you would share those ideas with us in a little more detail, maybe you wouldn't have to push back so hard. I don't think people here are trying to get blocked it's just that the rules seemed to have changed without us knowing about it and it's anyone's guess as to what they are.Kiddo
Posted by judy1 on October 17, 2002, at 17:56:58
In reply to Re: subtext, posted by kiddo on September 18, 2002, at 12:00:55
To be able to look at this thread. When trouble posted her responses to me (late at night), I self-injured myself severely, requiring an ER trip and stitches. There was so much venom, so much horrific language in her posts that I wonder if other victims of child abuse reacted in a similar way as I did- and I'm concerned about that and wish this thread had archived by now. To those of you who understood, like Shar and Phil and Mark, and through a private e-mail to Dr. Bob, I give my thanks. To those who don't understand why I reacted the way I did, I hope you can try. take care, judy
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 1:41:02
In reply to It's taken me a month, posted by judy1 on October 17, 2002, at 17:56:58
> When trouble posted her responses to me (late at night), I self-injured myself severely, requiring an ER trip and stitches.
Sorry that happened. Glad you're back!
Bob
Posted by Zo on October 30, 2002, at 17:14:27
In reply to It's taken me a month, posted by judy1 on October 17, 2002, at 17:56:58
How unfortunate! I hope you are better. I wondered at the time, do you think there should be another board made for triggering issues? These terrible topics are of course issues some of us live with every day - it might serve everyone if people *could* post about sexual and other abuse on a page that was understood to carry loaded content.
Zo
This is the end of the thread.
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