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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 20:18:56
You can always say,
she's clearly nuts.
Look at all her issues
It's all her fault
All this was her doing
She didn't respect me
she's abusive
she doesn't respect boundaries
she's histrionic
and frightened
she acts out of fear
her longings are too great
her desires unrealistic
expectations that I cannot have ever met,
my God, who do you think I am ...Well.
Who do you think you are?
Is that not the real question,
the one that begs to be answered?
Do you believe that your thoughts
have wings attached, or, perhaps,
that they are irrelevant?
Do your believe you are so good
at what you do, or profess to do,
that you need not be honest?
Do you believe my therapy existed
outside of yourself?Really???
Posted by alexandra_k on May 8, 2005, at 5:52:39
In reply to This Is Your Option, posted by Susan47 on May 7, 2005, at 20:18:56
T's are human beings.
They are fallable.
Like you or me.
They have their own needs and desires.
Their own failings and weaknesses.
When my last psychologist terminated me
I sent her emails.
Horrible emails
Pleading emails
But my anger melted away when she told me
That she had to terminate me because she was getting sick herself
Because she didn't know how to help me
And she couldn't see that she didn't have to DO anything
She couldn't see that.
So because of her weakness I got terminated
And nobody would work with me for a while
Until p-doc picked me up.The psychologist before that terminated me.
She said she thought it would be a good idea if we had a break.
I didn't want to
I pleaded with her not to do that
But she wouldn't see me for a month.
She said I needed to have a "good hard think"
But really she didn't want to see me.
She just wouldn't admit to that.
Then she went away for three months.
Three months.
When she returned she said she wanted to assess me before 'we' decided whether we would keep working together.
She assessed me.
Then terminated me.
She wrote a report saying that I had shown no progress with 3 years of psychotherapy. That the evidence indicated that psychotherapy was of no use to me and it was pointless to waste future resources on me.She blamed me.
I think that is what is so hard.
When they blame you.
Or when they don't tell you why and they let you blame yourself.But I guess they have defences just like the rest of us...
And it is 'normal' to blame others for negative events anyway... They blame us and it helps them carry on.
Lucky them, aye.
Posted by sunny10 on May 9, 2005, at 10:30:17
In reply to Re: This Is Your Option » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on May 8, 2005, at 5:52:39
I wonder why it is okay for them to "be human and have weaknesses", but it doesn't seem ok that we do!
We get terminated for it- or, we are forced to do the terminating because they HAVEN'T helped us... either way it comes out in our health records as being "too difficult to treat"...
Does that seem messed up to anyone but me?!?
Posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 13:30:58
In reply to Re: This Is Your Option, posted by sunny10 on May 9, 2005, at 10:30:17
No. It is messed-up. It's the reality a client has to live with, a "patient" as my "Doctor" liked to put it. It's not our bodies that are sick, it's our minds, apparently.
But we don't function in a vacuum. And everything that happens in that therapy room is not all about us, but it has to seem that way, it needs to appear to be what it is not.
Posted by sunny10 on May 9, 2005, at 13:52:33
In reply to Re: This Is Your Option » sunny10, posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 13:30:58
Posted by Susan47 on May 9, 2005, at 20:50:21
In reply to Re: you're right , but it stinks!!!!! (nm) » Susan47, posted by sunny10 on May 9, 2005, at 13:52:33
I was railing against things, not saying how I want them to be, no, not at all. Please disagree with me, I need to feel like I'm worthy.
He was too kind.
Can a person be too kind?
He was too empathetic.
What is empathy?
He seemed.. emotional.
How is emotion expressed?
Unsettled.
Riled, somehow.
At times, he was Serene
Unruffled, an act of
straightening feathers.
An actor.
Wasn't it me who said I loved actors?
Posted by alexandra_k on May 10, 2005, at 7:38:14
In reply to Re: This Is Your Option, posted by sunny10 on May 9, 2005, at 10:30:17
> I wonder why it is okay for them to "be human and have weaknesses", but it doesn't seem ok that we do!
Yeah. Ours gets to be 'pathological' theirs gets to be 'self protective' or something without the negative connotations anyway.
> We get terminated for it- or, we are forced to do the terminating because they HAVEN'T helped us... either way it comes out in our health records as being "too difficult to treat"...Yeah.
Doesn't it sound a little like blaming the victim? Linehan refers to it as that.
Just like you expect more from a cop to follow the law
You expect more from clinicians to be non-judgemental.
But it doesn't always work like that...
> Does that seem messed up to anyone but me?!?Yeah it is messed up.
I appreciate honesty.
I have had people say that they had to terminate me because they didn't know how to help me but they thought that someone else might be able to help me.
I have had other people say that they had to terminate me because I couldn't be helped. Because I wouldn't engage in therapy (cognitive restructuring).BUT IT ISN"T A MATTER OF LOGIC
Though my saying so is supposed to be reistent and pathological and that is just b*llshit.
Grr.
Too much talking and not enough listening.
Too much trying to change and not enough accepting.
Inability to tolerate silence.
Coping with the fact that I really don't have much of a desire to look them in the face much of the time and I don't have much of a desire to change that either.Oh well.
It is their call.
But we do expect more.
Maybe we shouldn't
But we do.But sometimes to admit to weakness can be too much for some people...
If they admit to not knowing how to help us
Not because there is something wrong with us
But because they just couldn't work it out
But continued to have faith that someone else could do that they could not.
Well.
That would be terrific.
I think I could even respect and accept a termination under those circumstances.
But I think maybe they are suseptible to cognitive errors of their own
'If I can't help this person then I must be deficient as a clinician' or something like that.What if they consider their own case...
Is it a matter of logic then?
Them succumbing to cognitive error?
Or then...
(And only then...)
Is it allowed to just arise from feelings of insecurity.
Feelings of insecurity are only human aren't they?But maybe its only clients who are supposed to admit to them.
Posted by sunny10 on May 10, 2005, at 9:41:50
In reply to Re: This Is Your Option, posted by alexandra_k on May 10, 2005, at 7:38:14
Susan,
Stop loving actors!! (Easy for me to say, eh?!?)
Seriously, weren't you saying that you finally understand how manipulated you were? And you were manipulated!
Stop doubting your own hindsight... it IS almost ALWAYS 20/20 !!! You ARE seeing him for the manipulative b*st*rd he is!!! Keep that in mind; I know that's hard to do when emotions are up one minute and down the next, but TRY (yes, I am attempting to follow my advice, too, right now particularly).Alex,
I believe that you are entirely correct. The therapeutic experience should be one of honesty, always.
If someone is unable to help us, the professional courtesy they are expected to perform should lead them to REFERRING us to someone else- not DUMPING US OUT INTO THE VOID AND SAYING THAT WE ARE AT FAULT!!!okay, done now... thanks for giving me something to think about besides my crummy life...
thanks,
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on May 10, 2005, at 20:12:01
In reply to Re: Susan and Alex, my responses..., posted by sunny10 on May 10, 2005, at 9:41:50
Okay, what if the professional dumps you into the void because you ASKED him to, he knew it would hurt you terribly, he knew you were already in deep deep emotional trouble, it's so fricking obvious, you know ... I am so reminded of someone I knew, someone I married in error, someone who had me completely and totally fooled, and still could, you know, if I saw him today, he would be able to completely break down, cry even, show so much personal pain, you couldn't believe how much pain this man could show, and it was real, you know, I believe his pain was absolutely real. But his pain caused him to be unable to love anybody wholly, as a whole person, and he pretty much was the last nail in my emotional coffin. Now the same thing happens to me, again, in another form, and yet I feel responsible, I feel like I created that to happen, but I know I didn't, you know I'm not a bad person I don't hurt people purposely, but I feel like I hurt him, he showed me how much I did that, he was completely selfish in it he was a professional, but I was selfish too, because in my pain I lashed out, I hurt his ears if nothing else. I hurt his ears.
Sigh. Man. My father hurt my ears. I can't believe this.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 11, 2005, at 2:13:26
In reply to Re: Susan and Alex, my responses..., posted by Susan47 on May 10, 2005, at 20:12:01
> Okay, what if the professional dumps you into the void because you ASKED him to,
Hmm. What if the professional sleeps with you because you ASKED him to?
Doesn't matter what you do and do not ask for they are supposed to be professional.
>But his pain caused him to be unable to love anybody wholly, as a whole person, and he pretty much was the last nail in my emotional coffin.
Sh*t.
I'm like that Susan.
Nobody ever better fall for me...I know you aren't a bad person.
And you wouldn't hurt intentionally.
Or if you did lash out then you really really would regret that (or maybe thats just me....)
I do lash out sometimes :-(
But I'm tryin to get better with that.Oh. You went on to say that too...
I think it is hard.
When people are in a lot of pain.
When it is so very obvious that they are in a lot of pain.
Then other people (clinicians) just want to try and get the pain to stop.
But they can't.
They can't make the pain stop.
But they can help you feel a bit better...
But sometimes they don't even seem to be doing that.
They don't know what to do.
Sometimes I can see that happening.
They withdraw because they start to feel helpless.
Inadequate.I think...
I think thats why Linehan talks about having to teach clients how to care for their therapists and look after them.So that they don't feel helpless.
But I don't know.
I don't.
I just know that i could never figure out what the hell I was supposed to do so I could keep them.
And at the end of the day they run away from me as fast as they f*cking can.But no more.
Posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 9:18:16
In reply to Re: Susan and Alex, my responses..., posted by alexandra_k on May 11, 2005, at 2:13:26
Huge. This is huge. How can I take care of my therapist? Do tell, Alexandra. I want to know. I loved him, when I thought he was caring and guileless. But I know he manipulated me. I don't know how much of it was done with a good heart, how much with anger. I believe he used both on me. Maybe it was a reciprocal relationship. In any case, it was never honest, on his part. How can you trust a man when your own therapist was dishonest with you? Ever again???
I don't know.
I don't know.
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 10:01:58
In reply to Re: Susan and Alex, my responses..., posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 9:18:16
start by remembering that not all people are the same- men OR women...
That's how you go on.
And your lashing out?!? YOU WERE IN THERAPY, for goodness sakes.... you're supposed to be free to express your feelings in therapy!
How else do they know how to help you if they don't understand your emotions??? And your reactions to stimuli??? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...
That was his JOB... for his ears to hear you!!! His JOB..... please, please, please do not apologize for being yourself in therapy!
Where else can you be yourself? (Besides here, I mean... but we can only offer support and understanding.)
I happen to love you JUST THE WAY YOU ARE, Suze.
With ALL of your passions intact. You bring me hope and inspiration; strength and courage with your passions about everything life IS.....
Posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 20:30:11
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 10:01:58
If I printed off posts of everything nice you said about me it'd be embarrassing. I like the fact that Babble is concrete only when you want it to be. We're becoming less and less dependent on human warmth and physical interaction, have you notice that? How many of us truly are isolated unless we have a big family, or really know how to work at maintaing contact, or even some who find it completely natural. I do, but whenever I'm really open the response I get,.. you know some people see you and you might be really dressed up, hat 'n all, you know, because that's what you like to do, you like to wear things, it's neat, and they look at you and they're immediately snotty, as though you have a leg up on them and they're assuming you're a complete bitch. I hate that type of person, they're so ignorant that now I just laugh, internally, laugh at them, because it's not me who's going on appearances, it's them. I'm having a good time. They're judging me because I don't look like they do. I'm not the casual type. And I don't like to be inconspicuous. It's just not me. I wish it were. How and why'd I narcissistically change the subject like that? Sorry, Sunny, I ramble when I'm relaxing. I'm trying to relax, anyhow. Gotta get some exercise, take a walk, return books, it's lovely out but it's already getting late. I don't like the dark and the cold. How about you?
Posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 21:23:02
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 20:30:11
You know, it makes you just want to put on your jeans or your sweats and be like everybody else. But nobody would like me that way, see, I don't like me that way. Blah is no way to live. It's all just a bunch of unused energy, you know, I just need to get out there and fricking live a real life, do what I want. Sigh.
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 9:28:25
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by Susan47 on May 11, 2005, at 21:23:02
I actually choose the anonymity of sweats... No one looks twice at me... they don't even look to see my face.
As a prior "trophy wife", I don't want men to look at me. Every once in a while, I dress up FOR ME or for my SO. I don't go anywhere special, anyway, so it's not like I dress in sweats to go to the opera or anything... I don't purposely dress inappropriately I guess is what I mean.
My SO prefers women without makeup, et cetera, but also enjoys when I dress up every once in a while for him...he knows that it is a "special occasion just for him" (hmmm, now that I look back it is probably a hormonal thing... it usually means I'm gonna jump him! It's probably that more than my outfit that he enjoys... smile).
I work in a "closed to the public" environment which means that we have no dress code. I wear sweats. If I meet a friend out at a bar, I don't change, usually. There's just live music every Friday and Saturday night at this one partcular place, with no cover charge. We go to hang out with each other.
I know lots of people who cultivate a special "look". I'm just much too lazy!!!
And, no, I don't much like walking in the dark and the cold, wither... Although I DO enjoy a walk on a summer's evening under a sky full of stars (!).
mwah,
sunny10
Posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 15:11:57
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 9:28:25
I don't know how we are supposed to look after them.
Something about respecting their boundaries
Expressing gratitude
etc etc.I don't do to well in therapy.
Maybe gg knows.
I don't wear make-up.
I don't suppose I ever will.
I have trouble with the idea of putting goop all over ones face.
Yuk.
But I suppose I'm not all that feminine.
Well. My figure is - but thats only served to bring me trouble.
I most definately am not a flirt.
Most of that (for me) is about being taken seriously for what I have to say - and I don't want to have to battle with that any more than I have to already.
I don't want to attract the kind of person who is firstly attracted by how I look.
I'd rather be taken seriously as a person first.But then that is me
And thats how I feel comfortable I suppose.
You have to feel comfortable.
I'm funny about clothes.
Sometimes you just throw them on and have a 'comfortable' day...
Othertimes you can't seem to feel comfortable in anything.
Posted by Susan47 on May 12, 2005, at 22:32:33
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 15:11:57
I can never feel comfortable in sweats or lounging in pyjamas .. ew, unless it's a cotton short nightie, I used to love "baby dolls" I love stuff like that, frills, ribbon and lace, that's me I'm afraid. And sexy black see through stuff that I remember I had this thing floated from shoulder to ankle, eeewwww I loved that, you know I really have to start looking for stuff like that, well I suppose I have to have someone else to wear it for too, there's no point absolutely none, well maybe in the summer with the drapes drawn early evening, hmm maybe I'll sneak out on the patio in the dark... I'm a bad bad girl. I'm bad. But, there's no point in wishing I were anything else, there just isn't. I can't be ashamed of who I am. I love being feminine, I love being a woman, I love having a woman's heart mixed with a child's heart and I love everything about being a woman. Period. Y'know, I think it's time to leave really really soon.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 22:49:20
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by Susan47 on May 12, 2005, at 22:32:33
> I can never feel comfortable in sweats or lounging in pyjamas .. ew, unless it's a cotton short nightie, I used to love "baby dolls" I love stuff like that, frills, ribbon and lace, that's me I'm afraid. And sexy black see through stuff that I remember I had this thing floated from shoulder to ankle, eeewwww I loved that, you know I really have to start looking for stuff like that, well I suppose I have to have someone else to wear it for too, there's no point absolutely none, well maybe in the summer with the drapes drawn early evening, hmm maybe I'll sneak out on the patio in the dark... I'm a bad bad girl. I'm bad. But, there's no point in wishing I were anything else, there just isn't. I can't be ashamed of who I am. I love being feminine, I love being a woman, I love having a woman's heart mixed with a child's heart and I love everything about being a woman. Period.
Right. So you feel comfortable in that kind of stuff. You have to wear what you feel comfortable in... Like I said.
>Y'know, I think it's time to leave really really soon.
I'm confused.
Maybe I'm just having a bad day... But I hope you don't think that I was judging you. I was just saying what sorts of things made me feel comfortable... And like I said you have to wear what you feel comfortable in..But something did occur to me...
Something did.You said something over on relationships about your t 'dressing to the nines' and about how you described that as part of him 'leading you on'.
You said something about how you hate to be judged on the basis of your appearance.
You said something about the guy you met who 'didn't recognise his power' - and you had just met him briefly.
Hmm...
Thinking
ThinkingI think sometimes how we judge others is how we are afraid that others are judging us. Sometimes we fear that other people will or are judging us the way we are judging them.
So we get in first.
But that seems to provoke others to judge us the way we feared.
And we have confirmed that which we were most afraid of.
I do this
I do
Posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 9:30:52
In reply to Re: Susan » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 22:49:20
Posted by Susan47 on May 14, 2005, at 1:31:44
In reply to Re: Susan » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on May 12, 2005, at 22:49:20
Hmmm. Good points and well taken. I have been thinking about this a good deal, myself, in the past day or two. Yes, I believe appearance matters a great deal to me. Appearances, in general, matter to me. I grew up being teased that I was somehow connected to Adolf Hitler because I was of German descent. I was actually born in Germany. It was always very important to my family that we looked decent; no matter that my father usually acted like a complete *ss no matter where he was or what he was doing. Always that tension, that unpleasant threatening garbage always coming out of his mouth. So I suppose it's no wonder people didn't like being around too much. I was ashamed to have anybody over, ever, I always went elsewhere with my friends.. and many years I didn't have any. Man I just got sidetracked again. I have no idea.. oh yes, appearances. They were important. They're important to me still. And I'm aware of how people use appearance to manipulate reality. But not everyone. Not me. But some people do.
Posted by Susan47 on May 14, 2005, at 1:34:03
In reply to Re: don't leave, Susan (nm), posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 9:30:52
Heavy sigh. I can't do all the typing anymore. It's too much. I don't want to sit at the computer so much. I have other things to do. It's time to get back to my life. A real life. I really want to live. We'll email each other though.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 14, 2005, at 19:12:11
In reply to Re: Susan » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on May 14, 2005, at 1:31:44
Hmm.
I have been thinking about how I relate to people too.I am fairly much a loner.
But then sometimes I wonder why I feel lonely.
Need to find the balance
Need to find the balance.If you go I'll miss you Susan.
Really.
I do understand that one can end up spending so very much time here
And that all of a sudden one thinks
Whatever happened to RL?
IRL I just sit at the computer all day...
But you will have to do that sometimes.
To email me :-)
Ok?
I understand if you need to cut back
But we are here if you want / need to Babble
And let us know how you are going every now and then
DOn't become a stranger
ok??????(((Susan))))
This is the end of the thread.
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