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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 12:20:14
In reply to Re: Scott, new trend. Your theory?, posted by SLS on August 11, 2009, at 5:08:35
> I think you should begin to taper the diazepam after being on 800mg of Tegretol for 5-7 days.
>
> How much diazepam are you taking right now?
>
> How did you plan to taper?
>
>
> - ScottI am at 16mgs right now. I didn't know if I should continue at a Dr Ashton rate of 1mg every week or so, if speed it up if I can.
Crazy how my wd symptoms get much worse between doses. Especially typing. Fingers feel like they are in rigamortis style.
Probably best that i get the ER version huh? and go 200-200-400
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 14:27:46
In reply to Re: Scott, new trend. Your theory?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 12:20:14
Do they work on anxiety? Being awake at 3am, i tried taking some unisom to sleep. It didn't work, but sure did take the edge off, made me feel drunk to where i wasn't giving a huge crap about everything. It even lowered my anxiety to where i was able to eat.
Are these ok to use? Or only for about 2 weeks or so?
Regards,
Brian
Posted by SLS on August 11, 2009, at 14:47:43
In reply to Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 14:27:46
> Do they work on anxiety? Being awake at 3am, i tried taking some unisom to sleep. It didn't work, but sure did take the edge off, made me feel drunk to where i wasn't giving a huge crap about everything. It even lowered my anxiety to where i was able to eat.
That's interesting. I don't know what to suggest you do with this new information. Some antidepressants are very potent antihistamines. Doxepin is an old school favorite for doctors who used it to treat anxiety and insomnia.
At some point, you are going to need to be evaluated for any issues not yet resolved. Have you been diagnosed as having a mental illness? Have you ever been treated for one? Which drugs have you tried in the past, and what were the results?
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 16:39:34
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by SLS on August 11, 2009, at 14:47:43
> > Do they work on anxiety? Being awake at 3am, i tried taking some unisom to sleep. It didn't work, but sure did take the edge off, made me feel drunk to where i wasn't giving a huge crap about everything. It even lowered my anxiety to where i was able to eat.
>
> That's interesting. I don't know what to suggest you do with this new information. Some antidepressants are very potent antihistamines. Doxepin is an old school favorite for doctors who used it to treat anxiety and insomnia.
>
> At some point, you are going to need to be evaluated for any issues not yet resolved. Have you been diagnosed as having a mental illness? Have you ever been treated for one? Which drugs have you tried in the past, and what were the results?
>
>
> - ScottI have read about doxepin being used for benzos. Well one thouht that i was ocd, but that just stemmed from the benzo wd, and treated for bipolar 2 times, but it was only stemming from benzo usage as well. Oh we tried every med under the sun, all making me worse.
So the best option was to come off of all of them.
So my main and only problem is the benzos.
Posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 16:52:41
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 16:39:34
and i for sure would not return to a psychiatrist and those horrific meds. The goal is to be med free, and let my brain heal and return to it's homeostasis.
It's always been the benzos.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 18:32:50
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 16:52:41
Do you think that doxepin would be worth a shot? Even Dr Ashton talks about it for anxiety and insomnia, both of which are terrible.
But all antidepressants other than lexpro make me more depressed ironically.
And how would TCA react w tegretol?
Lastly, is it ok to take benadryl during the day. And no, I'm not driving.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 18:58:20
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 18:32:50
I took benadryl 2 times during the day today, and it's by far the least anxiety that i've had in a long time. Something to that huh?
Posted by morganator on August 11, 2009, at 22:42:22
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 18:58:20
> I took benadryl 2 times during the day today, and it's by far the least anxiety that i've had in a long time. Something to that huh?
Benadryl helps most people sleep better. Antihistamines can definitely help with anxiety. I have had 2 doctors prescribe an antihistamine for anxiety. I can't quite remember the name. It began with an X I think?
Posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 22:55:29
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by morganator on August 11, 2009, at 22:42:22
> > I took benadryl 2 times during the day today, and it's by far the least anxiety that i've had in a long time. Something to that huh?
>
> Benadryl helps most people sleep better. Antihistamines can definitely help with anxiety. I have had 2 doctors prescribe an antihistamine for anxiety. I can't quite remember the name. It began with an X I think?Very interesting. I actually took Unisom, but is the same ingredient as Benadryl. I have both, perhaps will give the benadryl a go.
Just noticed that Seroquel is also a H1-receptor antagonists. Sometimes that med was fun (I'm now reading that it is being abused), but usually too much dysphoria during the day.
Let me know if you can think of the one that your doc recommended for anxiety. Thank you.
Are the antihistamines tolerance building (and dependence)? I hear that they can lose effectiveness over a couple of weeks.
I wonder if the doexipin is good for that. I worry a little about the serotonin in it though.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 12, 2009, at 12:01:17
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 22:55:29
Scott;
Well yesterday was my best day by far. Had far less anxiety, especially w/ the antihistamine, was able to sleep, watch tv, and my sleep was better than ever.
That said, I still get some interdose problems between the 2pm and 10pm doses. I was dosing 6-10-2-10.
I think if I was able to go to 1000mgs, and keep the dosing at 4 hour intervals, and be able to dose at 6pm, that it might be very beneficial.
Your thoughts?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 12, 2009, at 16:40:13
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 12, 2009, at 12:01:17
I'm imagining the benefit was due to antihistamines being beneficial for anxiety, and also probably increased the cns depressant effects of diazepam, that the tegretol probably has. but anxiety was so bad, i couldn't eat, in fear of choking on food. The antihistamine sure removed that fear.
But I imagine that unisom or benadryl isn't a good idea long term. Someone mentioned Atarax, but that's only supposed to be used short term.
I'm pretty afraid of the deoxpin, although it might be the best choice. As I respond poorly to all ADs, and the whole serotonin/norepinephrine scare me.
Thanks for the thoughts/suggestions.
The ER just doesn't pack the same punch as the immediate release does. So it might be 200mgs 5x a day after 5 days. Park it there, then reduce diaz/
Posted by qbsbrown on August 12, 2009, at 21:09:36
In reply to Scott; Antihistamines, posted by qbsbrown on August 12, 2009, at 16:40:13
Doxepin and Tegretol don't play very nice together do they? Just checking out the drug interactions.
Brian
Posted by SLS on August 13, 2009, at 5:36:55
In reply to Re: Scott; Antihistamines, posted by qbsbrown on August 12, 2009, at 21:09:36
> Doxepin and Tegretol don't play very nice together do they? Just checking out the drug interactions.
What is the problem?
Where did you find this information? I'd like to take a look at it.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 9:33:40
In reply to Re: Scott; Antihistamines, posted by SLS on August 13, 2009, at 5:36:55
I just did a search for drug interactions on different websites. Did speak to a pharmacist who said that the tegretol might lower the amount of doxepin.
Would that be like taking 2 tcas?
Would it be risking heart problems? I already had a small minor surgery for an arythmia.
I hate antidepressants, but it/they sure made tapering easier in the past.
I wonder if I could get a way with 25mgs at night.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 10:58:44
In reply to Re: Scott; Antihistamines, posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 9:33:40
Well, I wonder if adding doxepin might help. Another necisary evil w/ the tegretol. I have to eat, and i have to sleep. I'm waking up at 3am, and i wasn't able to eat before antihistamines.
The tegretol is already taking it normal anticonvulsant brain disabling mechanism in me. Not wanting to shower, to do dishes, the garbage,etc, the things i had finally returned to since quitting the meds. But I know this will be temporary.
Tomorrow, I go in to a detox facility for an assessment (it's required before taking my DUI classes (I drank 1 time in the last year, and got busted for a DUI), as they say coming off the benzos is dangerous, and they want the ok before being able to take their classes), so i'll let you know how that goes and what they say.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 11:40:05
In reply to Re: Scott; Antihistamines, posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 10:58:44
Scott, I think I'm gonna take the tegretol to 1000mgs on saturday. That said, if I feel ready to cut a little bit, 1mg, should I go ahead? Or would you say wait til been on 1000mgs for 5 days?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 17:57:21
In reply to Re: Scott; Antihistamines, posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 11:40:05
Well at this point, I can continue on on my own route. I'd probably sadly have to add an AD (I might go Doxepin rather than a SSRI) to be able to sleep a little and to be able to eat. I HAVE to be able to eat.
Or, I can fork over serious money and go see an addiction specialist, who probably doesn't know more than i, but it'd be nice to be monitored for any serious physical complications that might arise.
Or lastly, I can go to a detox facility and do it there.
I detoxed in 1 week last summer, returned to the states, but had serious racing thoughts from the quick detox, so i thought that i was bipolar, and started the wheel over again.
I'd appreciate your feedback.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by SLS on August 14, 2009, at 0:30:32
In reply to My options, posted by qbsbrown on August 13, 2009, at 17:57:21
> Well at this point, I can continue on on my own route. I'd probably sadly have to add an AD (I might go Doxepin rather than a SSRI) to be able to sleep a little and to be able to eat. I HAVE to be able to eat.
It sounds like a reasonable plan. Doxepin has survived the test of time in demonstrating efficacy for depression, anxiety, and insomnia. Being an antihistamine, it should increase your appetite.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on August 14, 2009, at 11:44:33
In reply to Re: My options, posted by SLS on August 14, 2009, at 0:30:32
> > Well at this point, I can continue on on my own route. I'd probably sadly have to add an AD (I might go Doxepin rather than a SSRI) to be able to sleep a little and to be able to eat. I HAVE to be able to eat.
>
> It sounds like a reasonable plan. Doxepin has survived the test of time in demonstrating efficacy for depression, anxiety, and insomnia. Being an antihistamine, it should increase your appetite.
>
>
> - ScottWell the antihistamines seemed to help a little bit, but when they wore off, it made things worse. But yes, while they worked, it greatly helped my appetite, and some anxiety was decreased. It might be worth a look at.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 14, 2009, at 17:18:58
In reply to Re: My options, posted by qbsbrown on August 14, 2009, at 11:44:33
Wow Scott, Doxepin is 700 times more potent than diphenhydramine. I couldn't imagine the eating and sedation from that, wow. If the histamines were making it worse after they wore off, then i wonder if this is good. I mean that i'd get like chest tightness. But i know that antihistamines can cause some heart probs, as can TCAs.
Worried,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 15, 2009, at 14:52:10
In reply to Re: My options, posted by qbsbrown on August 14, 2009, at 17:18:58
Now that I am somewhat acustomed to the tegretol, do you think that my brain/body would accept trileptal now? I think the two benefits would be that it might not be lowering the diazepam levels, and that i think the tegretol is giving me quite bad rapid heart beats, arrythmias, which i had a minor surgery for 10 years ago.
I started this taper on trileptal,, and although i hated it, and what it induced, it allowed me to cut from 30mgs to 10mgs in 10 days. It might be arrogant and wishful thinking to think that it would do the same now.
I see it is quite an easy crossover, tegretol 200mgs=300mgs of trileptal, so I'd be on 1200 trileptal.Also, with trileptal, i had to dose just as often with the peaks and valleys.
Your opinion? Gone to that well too many times?
Brian
Posted by SLS on August 15, 2009, at 18:39:36
In reply to Scott: Trileptal, posted by qbsbrown on August 15, 2009, at 14:52:10
Hi Brian.
> Now that I am somewhat acustomed to the tegretol, do you think that my brain/body would accept trileptal now?
Your guess is as good as mine. You are experiencing idiosyncratic negative reactions to these drugs, and I don't know why.
I think the two benefits would be that it might not be lowering the diazepam levels.
Yes, but that should not be a factor at a steady dosage of Tegretol in that you can make an adjustment to the diazepam dosage.
> and that i think the tegretol is giving me quite bad rapid heart beats,
Doxepin is more likely to do that. Do you have diagnosed conduction irregularities? If so, where is the irregularity located?
Personally, I would try Trileptal if I were trying to discontinue diazepam. Unfortunately, you reported having had a bad reaction to it. What would be different this time?
How do you plan to make the switch from Tegretol to Trileptal? Were you going to cross titrate or simply switch over?
I recommend that you write down what you experience with these drugs so that you have a record you can refer to in the future.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on August 15, 2009, at 19:29:33
In reply to Re: Scott: Trileptal, posted by SLS on August 15, 2009, at 18:39:36
> Hi Brian.
>
> > Now that I am somewhat acustomed to the tegretol, do you think that my brain/body would accept trileptal now?
>
> Your guess is as good as mine. You are experiencing idiosyncratic negative reactions to these drugs, and I don't know why.
>
> I think the two benefits would be that it might not be lowering the diazepam levels.
>
> Yes, but that should not be a factor at a steady dosage of Tegretol in that you can make an adjustment to the diazepam dosage.
>
> > and that i think the tegretol is giving me quite bad rapid heart beats,
>
> Doxepin is more likely to do that. Do you have diagnosed conduction irregularities? If so, where is the irregularity located?
>
> Personally, I would try Trileptal if I were trying to discontinue diazepam. Unfortunately, you reported having had a bad reaction to it. What would be different this time?
>
> How do you plan to make the switch from Tegretol to Trileptal? Were you going to cross titrate or simply switch over?
>
> I recommend that you write down what you experience with these drugs so that you have a record you can refer to in the future.
>
>
> - ScottLOL. I think we might be screwed scott, and might have to endure this solo. The only other considerations i think are topamax, which never caused dysphoria or depression, but only derealization and stupidity. But then again, it seems that almost anything I try that deals with GABA, even vitamins and supplements, seem to have an adverse effects. It might just be so sensitive.
That, or phenobarbital. I hate the anticonvulsants, and have found them all very harsh, and I've hated them, even when i wasn't in serious WD.
Phenobarbital is more of a barbituate than an anticonvulsant? Or is it both? Is it supposed to be smooth?
Then again, depakote always seemed smooth to me, but in this state, hit me like a ton of bricks.
I think that a detox clinic is crazy and asking for psychosis and delirium, and then thrown back on to the streets.
2 clinics that i've already spoken to have mentioned tegretol. 1 assumed i was taking it, the other said it would be administered. I think that 1 would add phenobarbital.
but it's been one month on tegretol, and i haven't been able to lower my dose. I was lowering 1mg every 2 weeks.
Sure, it was great to be able to leave the house and go to an Island, and some parts were ok. But most of it was depressing and dysphoric. When on it, all that I hear are ugly voices from the drug
24/7. It's taken away my muscle spasms and my serious sweating that's nice. My paranoia of eating other foods is gone that's nice.
Talking to other people can be nice.But I think this is a big trade off that might not worth it.
What is the protocol for coming off? 200mgs every 5 days?
There might be a huge backlash from coming off that I'm very afraid of. I was doing well with my taper, then came off cold turkey off trileptal a while back, and all hell broke loose. There was even some to pay for the 2 days of depakote.
I might be screwed.
There is a benzo expert in my area who has referred me to an addiction specialist who is very receptive to what I'm going through.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 15, 2009, at 19:39:39
In reply to Re: Scott: Trileptal, posted by qbsbrown on August 15, 2009, at 19:29:33
Ok, if I continued with tegretol, today is day 5 on 800. Would you recommend dropping diazepam after 1 week?
You're right, the definition of insanity, would me trying trileptal on this taper again. I've tried it maybe 3 other times on the taper. The first time, had I continued, it might have been ok. But as I got further into the taper, it was too harsh, and i saw the mixed mood episodes coming back.
I haven't tried or taken the doxepin yet. I'm pretty afraid to.
Brian
Posted by morganator on August 15, 2009, at 20:26:50
In reply to Re: Antihistamines; is it just me or?, posted by qbsbrown on August 11, 2009, at 22:55:29
Sorry for getting back so late..I think it was one of the brand names you mentioned..Hydroxyzine is the generic name
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