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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 11, 2011, at 14:43:13
In reply to Re: 3+ trillion dollars and 120,000+ war dead later » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by floatingbridge on September 11, 2011, at 13:16:56
> > The amount who where killed includes Iraq/Afghanistan civilians, and soldier (American and Iraqi) deaths. (From Iraq Body Count (IBC) and Wiki Leaks.) The amount spent was from 2008.
> >
> > Jay
>
> Jay, I think we all know this. A person is a person, no matter what country we are from. Mourning the catastrophe of 9/11 is as appropriate as any other major tragedy.
>
> The events leading up to 9/11 and the aftermath all are horrible IMO. I don't know irl a single person ignorant of or pleased by any (frikkin') war.
>
> Yours in peace,
>
> fbOh yeah, absolutely! I just presented the facts, and made no commentary or judgement. The way the world changed after carries the largest implementations the world has ever seen. This is a direly important fact that, I don't believe, people know or understand. Many people don't understand the toll of deaths to innocent Iraqi civilians, and I don't mean this in disrespect, but there where 40 times the number of dead as compared to 9/11.
Jay
Posted by jane d on September 11, 2011, at 16:46:22
In reply to Re: 3+ trillion dollars and 120,000+ war dead later » floatingbridge, posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 11, 2011, at 14:43:13
Jay,
There's a thread on politics where you might have a better chance of finding the discussion you are looking for.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20090821/msgs/996466.html
Jane
Posted by 10derheart on September 11, 2011, at 19:28:34
In reply to There's a thread on politics you might prefer » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by jane d on September 11, 2011, at 16:46:22
Posted by SLS on September 11, 2011, at 19:58:02
In reply to Remembering., posted by SLS on September 10, 2011, at 6:34:22
>
> http://www.slschofield.com/wtc/wtc.html
>Today, I wept. I wept for everyone.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on September 11, 2011, at 20:15:31
In reply to Re: Remembering., posted by SLS on September 11, 2011, at 19:58:02
Posted by larryhoover on September 11, 2011, at 20:46:18
In reply to Remembering., posted by SLS on September 10, 2011, at 6:34:22
Thank you Scott, for telling your intimate story of that day. And thank you for the work you did to put together your web page. And thank you for starting this thread.
I suffer from PTSD, and I came very close to the edge of sanity that morning. All I could think about was the children, whose mothers and fathers had gone off to work that morning as usual, but nothing would ever be the same for them again.
I don't think I would have been able to process 9/11 before this year. I have been experiencing a great catharsis. I can finally feel what I have long suppressed. And that is not only shock and incredulity, but more powerful yet is my outrage! That anyone could even imagine such a plan, let alone spend great time and effort to carry it out. And in all that time, sober second thought did not occur.
I am not wise enough to know what might be the correct response to these terrorist attacks, but I don't think that chasing those cowards (e.g. Bin Laden) to the ends of the Earth, or to the ends of their lives, whichever comes first, is an unreasonable response.
Lar
Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 11, 2011, at 23:28:35
In reply to Remembering., posted by SLS on September 10, 2011, at 6:34:22
You can watch Fahrenheit 911 the movie, full length for free on youtube.
Posted by Phillipa on September 12, 2011, at 0:21:15
In reply to Re: Remembering. » SLS, posted by larryhoover on September 11, 2011, at 20:46:18
Lar we will get them!!!! Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on September 12, 2011, at 2:56:11
In reply to Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube, posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 11, 2011, at 23:28:35
Jay,
Why suggest this, on this thread, at this time?
Did Scott not post something personal and human and amazing about that day? Did it seem to you like he was saying - or even hinting - that he wishes - on this thread - to discuss the pros and cons of the aftermath and/or Mr Bush's presidency or Mr. Moore's view of it? I didn't think so. As a response to Scott's OP, I find the suggestion you make here that readers could go watch FH451 ....unsettling, at best :-( Maybe even inappropriate, though perhaps your individual passions on the aftermath overcame your sensitivity and better judgment? I know what a kind and caring guy you have always appeared to be at Babble, Jay. Time and place for this...?
Couldn't you please consider jane's gentle nudge to put posts addressing this aspect on Politics?
You say facts about the aftermath are direly important. OK. But could they be that over on a different thread on Politics?I got the impression the narrow escape of a beloved dad was/is "direly important" to Scott on *this* thread - here, you know?
Posted by Dinah on September 12, 2011, at 8:25:22
In reply to Re: Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by 10derheart on September 12, 2011, at 2:56:11
Posted by gardenergirl on September 12, 2011, at 18:44:49
In reply to Remembering., posted by SLS on September 10, 2011, at 6:34:22
Thank you for sharing your story, Scott. I'm so glad your dad survived what still seems so unimaginable.
gg
Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 12, 2011, at 23:50:13
In reply to Re: Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by 10derheart on September 12, 2011, at 2:56:11
> Jay,
>
> Why suggest this, on this thread, at this time?
>
> Did Scott not post something personal and human and amazing about that day? Did it seem to you like he was saying - or even hinting - that he wishes - on this thread - to discuss the pros and cons of the aftermath and/or Mr Bush's presidency or Mr. Moore's view of it? I didn't think so. As a response to Scott's OP, I find the suggestion you make here that readers could go watch FH451 ....unsettling, at best :-( Maybe even inappropriate, though perhaps your individual passions on the aftermath overcame your sensitivity and better judgment? I know what a kind and caring guy you have always appeared to be at Babble, Jay. Time and place for this...?
>
> Couldn't you please consider jane's gentle nudge to put posts addressing this aspect on Politics?
> You say facts about the aftermath are direly important. OK. But could they be that over on a different thread on Politics?
>
> I got the impression the narrow escape of a beloved dad was/is "direly important" to Scott on *this* thread - here, you know?
>Hey, I posted the information *because* I very much care, and have just as much deep empathy about this horrid event as you do. Please don't assume you have a monopoly on what is and isn't relevant/important in this case. There was nothing that I posted that was ignorant or insensitive. Actually, I simply posted a few questions, and a link to the most popular documentary ever made. Many of the 9/11 victim's families feel their grief and questions (which are on record) around this tragedy have not been addressed. It would be heresy, and many feel in vain, to ignore that. I VERY strongly support Scott and any person or family who have had to live with a connection to this nightmare.
Jay
Posted by Dinah on September 13, 2011, at 0:04:50
In reply to Re: Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by 10derheart on September 12, 2011, at 2:56:11
Posted by Dinah on September 13, 2011, at 0:11:56
In reply to On at least most of what you said. (nm) » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on September 13, 2011, at 0:04:50
discussions into a thread about the grief and distress of many people on this board concerning the deaths that occurred when the planes crashed into buildings on September 11, 2011.
Posted by Dinah on September 13, 2011, at 2:10:54
In reply to I feel very upset by the insertion of political, posted by Dinah on September 13, 2011, at 0:11:56
Posted by 10derheart on September 13, 2011, at 3:42:38
In reply to Re: Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube » 10derheart, posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 12, 2011, at 23:50:13
I said what I wanted to say and thought I was clear. I am sorry that you have completely and utterly missed my point. I see no place I described you as ignorant or insensitive.
In any case, it's Scott's thread, Scott's call.
I surrender.
Posted by 10derheart on September 13, 2011, at 3:57:38
In reply to Re: Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by 10derheart on September 13, 2011, at 3:42:38
I apologize.
Please forgive me.
Posted by 10derheart on September 13, 2011, at 4:05:17
In reply to Re: Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube » 10derheart, posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 12, 2011, at 23:50:13
I did want to correct one misstatement and poor choice of words. I never meant to write that you *appeared* to be kind and caring on Babble, as if that were in question, or not the case now or something. I was trying to just capture the fact none of us actually know one another in cyberspace so overall I guess we could all project some person opposite of who we are (don't know why anyone would, but anything's possible)...but it wasn't supposed to read that way at all.
You have been kind,caring, supportive and passionate about important causes in past posts and I respect those qualities a great deal. I am sorry for my messed up choice of words.
Posted by SLS on September 13, 2011, at 5:48:56
In reply to Scott, posted by 10derheart on September 13, 2011, at 3:57:38
> I apologize.
>
> Please forgive me.I might if I knew what you were apologizing for.
I have been on this site long enough to moderate my reactivity to those behaviors that do not resonate well with my gestalt. I was not particularly offended by the posts here that interjected opinions of a political or military nature. I recognize that this is a demonstration of the differences in how people can react to the same event. I was not offended, but I was disappointed that this thread might morph into heated exchanges of differing opinions regarding the politics and logistics surrounded a nation's response to being attacked.
I still don't understand the depth of my emotional upset when I think of September 11, 2001. It was surely a day of the surreal. I lost no one in my life. You know, just having written that caused me to realize that I did indeed lose people in my life. I lost thousands of innocent brothers and sisters to a profane act of death and destruction. We in the U.S. finally experienced the sense of vulnerability to terrorism that the rest of the world had suffered for decades. How could this happen here in the US? We were supposedly forever safe under the protection of the world's greatest military. Things have forever changed.
I still cry at the drop of a hat when I think of that day. There seems to be an infinite reservoir of tears inside me that remains hidden from me until they are provoked. I never know when this will happen. At first, I pronounce to myself that these feelings are mine alone, as if they were somehow unique. However, it soon becomes obvious to me that I am not unique in my intense reaction to the bombings. I commiserate with millions of others. Innocence lost.
- Scott
Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 13, 2011, at 9:58:30
In reply to Re: Scott » 10derheart, posted by SLS on September 13, 2011, at 5:48:56
Scott, I very honestly did not mean *any* disrespect for your experience and feelings. In fact, I posted my reference points *because* I have very deep empathy, more than I think some here seem to understand, for those affected and who lost so many lives on 9/11. I believe these people deserve answers or the horrific tragedy will all be in vain. It is all connected in some way or another.
In the aftermath, anyone who questioned things where told to "shut up", and I refer you to the quotation in your signature.Let us hope this next decade will be one of peace.
Gracefully under Pressure,Jay
Posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 13, 2011, at 10:18:13
In reply to Re: Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 full movie on utube » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by 10derheart on September 13, 2011, at 4:05:17
> I did want to correct one misstatement and poor choice of words. I never meant to write that you *appeared* to be kind and caring on Babble, as if that were in question, or not the case now or something. I was trying to just capture the fact none of us actually know one another in cyberspace so overall I guess we could all project some person opposite of who we are (don't know why anyone would, but anything's possible)...but it wasn't supposed to read that way at all.
>
> You have been kind,caring, supportive and passionate about important causes in past posts and I respect those qualities a great deal. I am sorry for my messed up choice of words.Thank you very much for your kind and understanding post. I minced some words and don't think I came across the right way, and I apologize for any of my accusations. I honestly think we all want the same thing, and that is a high level of respect and compassion for all of those who lost, or nearly lost, their lives, as well as for their families. I see the deep compassion in both your posts, and in many, many supportive ones over the years.
So, I think we all agree in our wish for peace. And I know I can start it by initiating it on Psychobable. Thanks very kindly...
Jay
Posted by SLS on September 13, 2011, at 11:35:42
In reply to Scott please..., posted by Shes_InItForTheMoney on September 13, 2011, at 9:58:30
> Scott, I very honestly did not mean *any* disrespect for your experience and feelings. In fact, I posted my reference points *because* I have very deep empathy, more than I think some here seem to understand, for those affected and who lost so many lives on 9/11. I believe these people deserve answers or the horrific tragedy will all be in vain. It is all connected in some way or another.
> In the aftermath, anyone who questioned things where told to "shut up", and I refer you to the quotation in your signature.
>
> Let us hope this next decade will be one of peace.
> Gracefully under Pressure,
>
> Jay
Well, Jay, I'm afraid I didn't make my point visible enough for you to see. You were not the target. I did not consider your first post to be an example of graffiti terrorism. However, it did seem misplaced. I think you found some evidence of this contained in the posts of others. Someone went so far as to start a new thread for you, such that you could establish a political topic. You might deliberate your choice of where to submit subsequent posts regarding political reactivity to the events of 9/11/2001. I would not want to see this thread deteriorate any further than it has already by exchanging a series of adversarial off-topic posts to one another.Meanwhile...
I would be curious to know what emotions you felt on 9/11/2001.
I probably would have enlisted in the military that day were I not too old for admission. I was angry, but felt impotent for being unable to do anything about it. I was hugely frustrated that I had no way of getting into Manhattan so I could look for my father. More than anything, I wanted to help, but my route to the city had been cut off.
- Scott
Posted by sleepygirl2 on September 13, 2011, at 12:11:19
In reply to Re: Scott please... » Shes_InItForTheMoney, posted by SLS on September 13, 2011, at 11:35:42
I remember the panicked faces of people that day who couldn't reach their loved ones. Where were they? Where were they supposed to be at that moment? Such helplessness and horror. Just not knowing.
I remember the eery mood of silently, slowly moving lines of traffic, trying to get wherever without the use of parkways that had been closed except for emergency access. I remember how my landlady had walked toward home that day, across the bridge, with lots of other people on foot.
I remember the smell, burning and smokey that lingered. I remember a friend who went to help in the aftermath.
I remember hearing the stories about this person and that person, those who were lost and those that were "lucky".
I remember meeting children of firefighters months after. Their dads were gone, just gone. And it was just wrong.
And I remember the pictures.
Again, it's not my tragedy, I didn't lose anyone. But I feel like I'll never forget it. And every face I see in the paper and tv is a person gone too soon, with family and friends that have had to "cope" with the loss.
I see the memorials, I see every name, the metal pieces salvaged from the site. I don't know what part of it I want to hold onto.
Posted by SLS on September 13, 2011, at 12:37:44
In reply to Remembering, posted by sleepygirl2 on September 13, 2011, at 12:11:19
> I remember the panicked faces of people that day who couldn't reach their loved ones. Where were they? Where were they supposed to be at that moment? Such helplessness and horror. Just not knowing.
> I remember the eery mood of silently, slowly moving lines of traffic, trying to get wherever without the use of parkways that had been closed except for emergency access. I remember how my landlady had walked toward home that day, across the bridge, with lots of other people on foot.
> I remember the smell, burning and smokey that lingered. I remember a friend who went to help in the aftermath.
> I remember hearing the stories about this person and that person, those who were lost and those that were "lucky".
> I remember meeting children of firefighters months after. Their dads were gone, just gone. And it was just wrong.
> And I remember the pictures.
> Again, it's not my tragedy, I didn't lose anyone. But I feel like I'll never forget it. And every face I see in the paper and tv is a person gone too soon, with family and friends that have had to "cope" with the loss.
> I see the memorials, I see every name, the metal pieces salvaged from the site. I don't know what part of it I want to hold onto.Thank you for capturing and sharing so much of that day.
I don't want to lose any part of that day nor those that followed. I don't want to lose any part of me that remains human. I don't know how I could possibly decide what to hold on to. It holds on to me.
Have you ever listened to "The Rising" by Bruce Springsteen? After a long absence from my CD player, I took it out and played it on Sunday. It made me feel warm and cold, near and distant, sad and joyous, defeated and inconquerable. I want never to forget.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 13, 2011, at 13:05:11
In reply to Re: Remembering » sleepygirl2, posted by SLS on September 13, 2011, at 12:37:44
Lyrics to "The Rising" album:
http://www.slschofield.com/wtc/springsteen_the_rising/index.html
- Scott
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