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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 1:24:41
In reply to u should be ashamed......... » Poet, posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 17:53:40
> But wait...i am not sure now what to do if i get a really big piece of lettuce in a really posh restaurant?? do i cut it or ignore it and leave it on the plate....b/c now i am going to never be able to use a knife in my salad :)
>Dragonfly, if I understood (clearly not internalized yet LOL) the guideline for this situation, the knife can be used to fold the piece of lettuce up into a manageable bite size.
This was in a pretty fancy, very small restaurant. I was alone ... confession time I guess: someone gave me a generous gift certificate, enough for two to have a 5-course dinner and wine. What I do though is go there at lunch once a month or so. I'm usually the only person in the restaurant (dinner is their main business but they open for lunch since they're preparing dinner anyway) and I ask the owner questions about how to eat things I've never seen before. I 'pay' with the gift certificate and leave an overly generous cash tip.
(Last time I was there, the owner asked me about my relationship to the person who gave me the certificate, and this really ticked me off - it felt like an indiscretion. She also chatted a LOT, and I just wanted quiet. So once I've used up the gift, I'll still go back for difficult appetizers, but will find another place to practice.)
So I ran into the salad 'faux pas' because I'd set myself up to practice, but it was still embarrassing. Even between countries similar to each other, there are big differences in table manners ... in France, the bread +does+ go on the table in even some pretty nice places. Napkins are never placed back on the table, but on the chair - whereas in the states I'm pretty sure I learned that cloth napkins were to be left on the table beside the plate at the end of the meal.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 5:58:37
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » dragonfly25, posted by Poet on February 7, 2004, at 17:31:52
Well, here in the UK it is perfectly acceptable to have whole lettuce leaves as a garnish.. Most of the rather fancy restaurants I have been to (including one with 2 Michalin stars) use whole leaves from their lettuce (never ice burg though.. more like rodaccio or how ever it is spelt and lambs foot etc)
When having a dinner party I often serve the starter (normally somekind of baked cheese - its my speciality!!) on a bed of lettuce and never chop it up. It would look totally wrong if not in whole leaves.
Hang on.. OK, called my friend who is a chef in a rather trendy London restaurant.. nope, he's never heard this either!!!
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 6:00:14
In reply to u should be ashamed......... » Poet, posted by dragonfly25 on February 7, 2004, at 17:53:40
*giggling*
I fold my lettuce.. use knife and form to fold it into a decent size, so I eat it WHOLE, the WHOLE leaf *knows there must be people shuddering all over the world at my huge faux pas"*
Folding is the way to go!!
Nikki xx
Posted by Rach on February 8, 2004, at 6:36:16
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
OMG! My ex boyfriend suddenly flew across the world to have breakfast with Medusa. (we broke up Sunday).
I would make enough food for our dinner and a few days worth of lunch to take to work. He would eat the entire amount in one sitting.
His only way of chewing was NOISY! And he would smack his lips every third or fourth chew, and open his mouth wide. He told me once it was to prevent the swallowing of air. It was the most foul noise & sight I've ever witnessed.
He never knew how to savour food. Food was to be bolted, not enjoyed. Chocolate would be swallowed whole. I attempted to teach him how to let things 'melt in his mouth'. He never got it. A shovel wouldn't have been enough volume wise and a motorised arm couldn't have gotten the food in fast enough.
Then don't even get me started on the state of his dishes before cooking, let alone after...
As to lettuce, I guess I've always folded if possible, but sometimes you get a piece impossible to fold - like stiff cos or something. Then, I suppose I have to admit, I've used the knife to cut. Oh dear! :)
Posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 7:08:35
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession?, posted by Rach on February 8, 2004, at 6:36:16
> I would make enough food for our dinner and a few days worth of lunch to take to work. He would eat the entire amount in one sitting.
>Rach, you make this almost funny!
I had several never-got-serious boyfriends who thought they had to consume everything I'd cooked. Problem is, like you, I was planning on leftovers. They'd finish everything - and one would complain that I'd made "too much".
(Screaming and tearing hair out here ... it was never funny when it happened, I was always strained for time and money and these guys just trod all over both. I've learned now to defend my territory better, but where do people get the idea they can behave like this?)
I guess in dating around some, I got better at picking up on early food-related signals that things would not work and should not be attempted. One guy chopped up all of his food into smaller-than-bite-size pieces before beginning to eat. The same guy asked me to picnic with him in a park, but refused to do pot-luck - he vehemently insisted that we each bring our own. Was he potty-trained with a gun to his head?
> to prevent the swallowing of air.WOW, gotta remember this one ...
> He never knew how to savour food. Food was to be bolted, not enjoyed. Chocolate would be swallowed whole. I attempted to teach him how to let things 'melt in his mouth'. He never got it. A shovel wouldn't have been enough volume wise and a motorised arm couldn't have gotten the food in fast enough.
>I'm not trimming the above, because it expresses the phenomenon so well. Reading it, I laugh, cringe, and am sad all at once.
> like stiff cos or something. Then, I suppose I have to admit, I've used the knife to cut. Oh dear! :)
>I wonder if it's preferable to use the fork to cut this? Maybe Nikki'll tell us?
Rach, good for you for breaking up with the boor. (Boar?)
Posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 7:10:58
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Poet, posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 5:58:37
for checking up on this.
> Hang on.. OK, called my friend who is a chef in a rather trendy London restaurant.. nope, he's never heard this either!!!
>
Hey, if your chef friend ever happens to share guest-faux-pas stories with you and you're inclined to pass them on, I'd love to hear and accept all advance admonition.
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:19:00
In reply to IIRC » dragonfly25, posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 1:24:41
Hi Medusa,
<Dragonfly, if I understood (clearly not internalized yet LOL) the guideline for this situation, the knife can be used to fold the piece of lettuce up into a manageable bite size.
Really! OMG, I am so upset about this, how could this one have slipped right past me? I have being eating rudely for years.....although it is only some pieces i have to cut....so i will have to fold from know on.
OK now i want to know if anyone knows WHY this is the rule, why can't you cut, I thought folding was rude? For someone who is so into manners this is quite devastating :) (i am so embarrassed)LOLdragonfly
What does IIRC mean?
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:24:28
In reply to Re: u should be ashamed......... » dragonfly25, posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 6:00:14
I am feeling very out numbered here LOL
This is sounding universal- except in my word :) (But I will definately spread the word), I wonder though....maybe I am the only one doing it. (gasps) :D
Do you know why folding is the way to go?Dragonfly
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:30:15
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession?, posted by Rach on February 8, 2004, at 6:36:16
YAY!!!!!! I feel so much better now :)
that is so gross and hilarios about your ex boyfriend. I have seen people eat like that, ALOT in fact and I don't get it???? Do they not know it is unattractive?
Dragonfly
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:34:46
In reply to you're killing me! » Rach, posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 7:08:35
<I wonder if it's preferable to use the fork to cut this? Maybe Nikki'll tell us?
OK here it goes.............I am worried though, in case I once again am way off.
You shouldn't cut with the fork, ever. I'll be waiting for the reply to this one (holding my breath)
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 12:44:17
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession?, posted by Rach on February 8, 2004, at 6:36:16
My husband eats his food sooo quickly too.. and will eat it ALL, how ever much I've cooked!!
I've learned portion control is vital with him *l*
he blames it on a public school upbringing!
nikki xx
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 12:49:56
In reply to thanks Nikki » NikkiT2, posted by Medusa on February 8, 2004, at 7:10:58
*laughing* I used to work at his restaurant occasionally.. *g* Oh my god, waitressing is hard work, but was alot of fun!!
We once had a very famous play write in.. his table manners were appalling.. calling me over for more water while his mouth was overly full, food stuck in straggly beard.. Just.. not nice (but he did tip me well, so that made up for it!!)
One regular would clean their knife on the edge of the plate - I hated that as it meant I got what ever sauce had been used all over my hands when collecting the plates *l*
Did have ALOT of laughs working there though!
nikki xx
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 12:51:46
In reply to Re: you're killing me!, posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:34:46
*laughing* You've found a pet hate of mine.. cutting with a fork!!
THOUGH.. its quite common in other cultures..
thats the thing.. manners are all about culture!!
off to find a web site on etiquette!!
nikki x
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 12:58:46
In reply to Re: you're killing me!, posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 7:34:46
Just a quick google search, so nothing exact...
Salad or Garnish? - Not sure if the lettuce leaves and parsley are a small salad or a garnish? It's fine to eat the lettuce leaves, but don't chow down on parsley or other small items. If you are in a real bind, feel free to leave it alone completely and ignore the greens.
http://www.cairnsdining.com/articles-etiquette.htmlIs it ever appropriate to cut your salad?
Ideally, salad ... the lettuce should be prepared so that one would not have to cut it however, this is not always the case and there does exist the salad fork .... and knife, for this purpose. Not all patterns nor all restaurants provide the salad knife. In the absence of the salad knife, it is acceptable to use the dinner knife to cut salad i.e.lettuce, cucumbers, etc.
http://www.protocolconsultants.com/tips.htmSalad
A fine restaurant or considerate hostess, will always serve the lettuce salad in bite size pieces. However if you are served large pieces or a whole wedge of lettuce, cut one bite at a time using the knife provided.
http://cookbook.rin.ru/cookbook_e/new_articles/etiket/23.htmlSalad
- If you do not like something on the salad, push it off to the side of the plate.
- Cut large pieces of lettuce or vegetables before eating.
http://www.indiana.edu/~wib/etiquette.htmSalad
You may be thinking: "Salad--easy enough". Wrong. Which fork do you use? How do you cut the leaves when they are too big? What if you don't like some of the garnish in the salad? The outermost fork on the table is the one you will use. Keep in mind, though, It may be the second or third fork depending on whether or not you used a fork for the first course. Just remember, after every course, the fork used in accordance with that course is taken away. Therefore, if you ever doubt which fork, always go to the one that is on the outside. As for cutting…DO NOT cut your lettuce with a knife. If you must, use the side of your fork to do so. However, you should learn how to roll the lettuce around the fork so that it is a manageable bite-size. As for garnishes that you do not wish to eat, simply push them to side of your plate while you are eating. You do not need to eat everything, but you should always try something from every course. If you do not make a big deal out of it, no one else will. Have a couple of bites and engage in conversation the rest of the time.
http://www.umich.edu/~ece/student_projects/quest/food.html
Posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 17:43:43
In reply to And the web says..., posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 12:58:46
i was feeling so impolite :(
you are right though, manners are different everywhere. Like, eating with the fork in the left hand - a british thing and with the right had a north american thing (when using a knife). It must be etiquette to switch your manners when you are among other cultures.
that left hand right hand fork things really stumps me. what should you do? maybe i am the only one noticing it though :D
Posted by Medusa on February 9, 2004, at 7:39:39
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
This morning, co-host found his own breakfast and left very early for work.
I made tea, and started lunch preparations: into the skillet went chicken broth, some mineral salt crystals, then fresh-minced garlic ... then a pound of diced tofu. That simmered for a while, then I added some powdered herbs: citron grass, cumin, galanga, white pepper, paprika.
Then Guest got up, came in and took a look. He didn't say anything. He went and showered, and when he re-appeared I went back to the kitchen. He followed me. From the window sill I took a container of sprouted mung beans and stirred them into the tofu. Guest watched. Then I took the container of wheat-berries-sprouted-and-showing-leaves and mixed them in, and said, "hmm, now I just have to marinate this and let it sit until lunch time."
I made a few telephone calls to schedule appointments for Guest. Then he asked, "so ... um ... what are you going to marinate the tofu with?" I gave a vague reply.
After Guest's first appointment (a photo shoot with a local photographer - Guest could really use some good pix for his on-line pursuits), Guest declined to return to the apartment for lunch - he insisted on taking a very slow train to a museum some distance from here, which yesterday he'd felt quite sure we could drive him to see.
(For any foodies on the board ... at lunch-time, I made brown basmati rice with a bit of field grass seeds aka 'wild rice' - I'm no vegan, but found the meal edible on the whole.)
I know, I should be getting much-neglected work done now, but I had to post. Thanks to all for the advice, anecdotes, commiseration etc.
Posted by fallsfall on February 9, 2004, at 8:02:18
In reply to Monday Breakfast, posted by Medusa on February 9, 2004, at 7:39:39
What time is dinner?
Posted by Kath on February 10, 2004, at 8:35:34
In reply to And the web says..., posted by NikkiT2 on February 8, 2004, at 12:58:46
> However, you should learn how to roll the lettuce around the fork so that it is a manageable bite-size.
Have the SEEN some of the pieces of lettuce one finds in a salad sometimes??? Especially Romaine with the thick centre-spine & leafy chunks on either side of it - imagine trying to roll it around the "salad fork"!!!! LOL
Kath
Posted by Kath on February 10, 2004, at 8:39:33
In reply to what a relief..... » NikkiT2, posted by dragonfly25 on February 8, 2004, at 17:43:43
I'm in Canada & how you do it depends on where you're from.
If I'm eating with 'fork in left hand' folks, I feel very 'boorish' switching my fork to my right hand, because I think it looks way less dignified than the other way. I've never been able to do the other way properly. How does one eat peas with the fork in the left hand? Fork tines up? Fork tines down & poke them? Poke one pea & eat? Poke 'em all & gobble? LOL
:-) Kath
> i was feeling so impolite :(
> you are right though, manners are different everywhere. Like, eating with the fork in the left hand - a british thing and with the right had a north american thing (when using a knife). It must be etiquette to switch your manners when you are among other cultures.
> that left hand right hand fork things really stumps me. what should you do? maybe i am the only one noticing it though :D
>
Posted by Kath on February 10, 2004, at 8:51:14
In reply to table manners ... obsession?, posted by Medusa on February 7, 2004, at 7:49:50
Oh Medusa - I am a word-person - love words & having fun with them!
WHAT a great post!!! and WHAT a gawd-awful guest!!!
It is, in the true sense of the word, unbelievable - not that I don't believe you, but it's (as a friend of mine used to say) "beyond the beyond".
I have a sneaky little feeling that good manners (in this case, the host's) were sprinkled with the necessary portion of common sense & practicality.
How old is this person? 7?
How long are they staying?
Good luck in not becoming homidical! (sp?)
:-) Kath
> Warning: big words used in attempt to follow my little brother's direction that "we know enough other words, we don't have to use dirty ones."
>
> I often find myself at a loss re: appropriate table manners. Has anyone here taken a refresher or crash course? Sometimes I feel like a barbarian. The other day I was in a restaurant and realized that I'd cut a piece of lettuce, and I'm pretty sure the proper thing is just to fold it (okay to use the knife - right?). I have so many unanswered questions of my own, I'm surprised to find myself irked by someone else's table manners.
>
> This week I have a houseguest, someone I've known for a while. I'd known that his manner of eating (raucous mastication, accelerated ingestion) fell outside of the standard range observed in most social settings, whether public or private. But I'd 1) never experienced this on my territory before, and 2) only seen him eat in very informal settings (barbecue etc).
>
> Perhaps I should have become a quality-assurance professional for a pharmaceutical company. Do these following quirks of mine sound over the edge?
>
> - Serving utensils are for serving ONLY - and they are the SOLE method of removing food from serving vessel. One's private flatware is employed for spreading, transporting food to mouth, and other necessary manipulations.
>
> - Guests might consider waiting for hosts to complete meal preparations AND come to table AND start eating before guest commences consumption. Host(s) setting items on table does not indicate that said items are intended for immediate consumption. Consumption of the entire contents of a serving vessel +before+ hosts have completed preparations presents difficulties to hosts who might possibly be attempting to provide a rounded meal for multiple persons and who might potentially have harbored personal anticipation of enjoyment of all elements of said meal. In these cases, hosts generally lack the humor to appreciate comments from guest that hosts have provided too much food.
>
> - If food is cleared at a point when guest's hunger has yet to be sated, it's preferable for guest to drop a hint requesting further comestibles rather than to devour his fingernails, gnaw at his cuticles and so on.
>
> - A dish or plate with large amounts of freshly-arranged food on it, set in the middle of the table, is probably intended to be a communal serving dish, not the guest's personal pre-served annex plate. Part B: the cook might not appreciate "help" guest might provide by salting, mixing (etc) contents of a serving dish.
>
> - Blowing one's nose on a cloth napkin is okay if it's your house, your napkin and you're alone.
>
> - Helping oneself to items on or in someone else's personal consumption vessels is ideally confined to situations with which I'm not yet familiar.
>
> - Guests might consider letting hosts set the tone for conversation, certainly at the beginning of a meal. When hosts have just managed to get meal on table, they might prefer a few moments to take a breath and begin eating leisurely. Willing immediate focus on guest's tourist itinerary is likely achieved by only the saintliest of hosts.
>
> - If hosts fail to provide a receptacle for discards, inedible items (such as shells from hard-boiled eggs) can be left on one's plate. It's neither necessary to transfer them back to the serving dish, nor desirable to place them on the table, even if the tablecloth is pink and guest just knows that pink is not the host's favorite color so it must be trash.
>
> - Spilling water on a tablecloth might indeed be a big deal - depending on the table underneath. So unless guest has seen for sure that the table top is laminate, guest would be advised not to declare "it's no big deal".
>
> Okay, so I know that the rudest thing of all is to correct anyone's manners, to make a guest feel uncomfortable in any way. BUT it's my bloody house, and the first point completely grosses me out (AND contaminates food *I* paid for) so I laid down the law on that one. And I *KNOW* that etiquette declares that the host must say that spills are 'no big deal' and should refrain from peeling back tablecloth and removing water from fine hardwood, but I screwed up here, too, by suggesting that co-host care for his table, and I'm not one bit sorry about it.
>
> And all that was just breakfast.
>
> Well, maybe I'm just snarky today. But I'd love to hear what table manners are important to others, what your pet peeves are, and any resources that might help me to improve my own grasp of dining etiquette.
>
>
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 10, 2004, at 9:11:52
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Medusa, posted by Kath on February 10, 2004, at 8:51:14
OK, my understanding of it here int he UK depends on whether you are left or right handed!!
Your kife goes in your leading hand, and fork in the other.. spoon in leading hand for soup.
Posted by Medusa on February 12, 2004, at 12:16:34
In reply to Re: table manners ... obsession? » Medusa, posted by Kath on February 10, 2004, at 8:51:14
> I have a sneaky little feeling that good manners (in this case, the host's) were sprinkled with the necessary portion of common sense & practicality.
>And I've learned some things about practicality - like, as I think Elle suggested, put a layer of plastic between the tablecloth and the table. Before guest arrives, hide anything (or as much as possible) you don't want used.
> How old is this person? 7?yeah, times 5. But raised as middle of 5 boys by a single mom, and then attended a series of mostly-male academic institutions. I think he was really, really uncomfortable while here, and knew that co-host and I were relatively picky.
> How long are they staying?He was here a week, left yesterday morning. I took him to the train station, and an hour later the cleaning lady arrived. I had to do a sweep of the toilet-room first ... she's told other people that our toilet is the cleanest she's ever seen where a man lives, and the state the toilet and the floor were in would have blown that record.
> Good luck in not becoming homicidal! (sp?)Thanks. Sunday afternoon I saw my rhetoric-coach person for something else, and as an aside I asked her how to handle something like this. (Specifically his conversation style, which I haven't described here.) She said there are various possibilities - one is to mention the behavior in a neutral way, since they might not realize they're doing X, Y or Z ... another is to tell them what effect the given behavior has on you. I tried these a few times, and the results were positive.
Co-host is big on bringing host gifts /never arriving empty-handed (nothing big, just a gesture), so he was tickled when on the last night of Guest's stay, Guest handed him a pen and said "I thought you might like this." Well, it wasn't a gift - Guest literally just thought that co-host might like the pen.
Guest complained about a few different things while he was here (e.g. the dishwasher 'runs constantly', we got up 'before it was light', we 'really tore through that tea' that I bought because he said he liked it and so on), so several times I suggested he send us a list of things we could do to improve our hosting. I look forward to seeing his list.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on February 13, 2004, at 23:06:54
In reply to Kath » Kath, posted by Medusa on February 12, 2004, at 12:16:34
Well, there are alot of important questions raised here. I think I need to make some observations:
Eating air: This obviously stems from improperly filled bottles in the child's infancy. There could have been a problem with the nipple too. This would lead to the second item...Eyes rolling back into head when eating. Could still be an infancy feeding problem. Perhaps the child's nose was obstructed while the bottle was in the mouth. Lack of air.... eyes roll back. Perhaps now, he is merely catching himself as he faints due to lack of oxygen. One may feel very sorry.
Cleaning knife on rim of plate. Any educated man should know that the necktie is an early predecessor to the modern napkin. Food being quite important, the well accoutered man always had napkin in hand, or rather at neck. Thus positioned, it is well placed for use in ending it all after insulting the hostess. Such a boor should be educated to clean the knife on his tie.
Folding or cutting. I have found that if one watches, and sees what the majority of guests are doing at a table, that following their example is the best bet. If I am then doing something incorrectly, at least I'm not doing it alone. I abandon this approach when most of the guests are wearing flannel shirts and steel-toed boots.
The eternal problem of finding that you have too much ice in your mouth. Often have I been so plagued. Eating Ice should always be done when one has a sufficient number of teeth. This limits the practice mostly to the young and educated. Unfortunately, hockey players are in both categories making application of this theory somewhat impractical. It seems that more thought is necessary.
Where to leave the napkin. Isn't that what you wrap the silverware in and stick in your purse as you leave the restaurant? (assuming you like the pattern).
Oh my... such questions... such imponderables. I do hope there is a definitive answer somewhere.
Dee.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 14, 2004, at 11:19:31
In reply to Some thoughts., posted by deirdrehbrt on February 13, 2004, at 23:06:54
Posted by EscherDementian on February 15, 2004, at 9:01:07
In reply to ROFL!!!!!! Thanks for the grins. (nm) » deirdrehbrt, posted by gardenergirl on February 14, 2004, at 11:19:31
i'm giggling AND printing....
some of this is going to get hung on the fridge! Thanx' for the grins and chuckles too :)Escher
This is the end of the thread.
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