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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tabitha on January 31, 2003, at 2:15:08
Hey y'all, I've had nagging RSI symptoms for many years. Too much keyboard at work plus this online socializing. My left hand was getting really bad, the pinky and ring finger going numb a lot. I learned... it's the ulnar nerve that goes to those fingers. Ulnar nerve goes over elbow bone, and I was leaning on left elbow all day at work. Squishing nerve all day. Stopped leaning on elbow, no more numb fingers!
Median nerve is the one for carpal tunnel syndrome, it goes to the thumb and 2 fingers, gets squished by inflammation in the wrist. I get that stuff too, unless I use wrist supports.
Annoyed with family doc who didn't know diddly about any of this stuff, just told me, oh, it's no big deal, you just take anti-inflammatories then get the carpal tunnel surgery.
Now I still have joint pain (getting arthritis?) in all the fingers and muscle aches all up the arms and in the armpits, back, neck, chest, basically entire upper body. I keep feeling lucky that I don't have carpal tunnel, but I've got everything else possible.
It's worst when I'm resentful and pressured at work. Seems like it's that as much as sheer volume of typing that causes the flare-ups.
Anyone have any home remedies for this stuff? I do some stretching but not very consistent about it. The wrist supports help more than anything. I have this other gadget for massaging the forearm muscle, and a book about trigger point massage, but all the massage seems to aggravate the inflammation.
Will I end up with gnarled arthritic hands, big knobby joints?
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2003, at 7:15:06
In reply to RSI -- typing injury, posted by Tabitha on January 31, 2003, at 2:15:08
I have RSI in both my wrists and have done for the last 10 years...
First, you need to make sure your work station is set up correctly.. this is your employers responsibilty, so ask them for advice.
The things I find helpful are.. the ibuprofen gel.. I find this is much better than just taking anti-inflammatory pills.. I rub in all down my forearms and onto the palm of my hand 3 times a day. The one I use is non sticky so once its rubbed in your arm doesn;'t feel all yucky!!
I don;t get on with the wrist supports at all, and tubi-grip (that elasticated tube banagae stuff) also makes the numbness alot worse, but it does help with the arm pain.When my fingers get *really* numb (they're a little numb all the time) I hold my arms up and shake my hand to get the circulation going again.
When I get the terrible pains that run up into my elbow, I hold my arm up above my head, and that seems to help.One exercise I was given is to place you pals on the edge of your chair, and gently push down as if to lift your body up.. I can't do this one any more as my wrists don't ben much nay more.
get physio therapy.. the infra red treatment I used to have helped it tons...
I am now looking into bee sting therapy.. I'm trying to find somewhere local that does it.. its a creaqm of some form that contains the venon from bee stings that you rub on the afected area.. I;ve heard some amazing reports of it.
Oh, and acupuncture helped enourmously too (but can't afford the weekly treatments any more *pouts*)...
Hope this gives you some ideas
Nikki xx
Posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 10:17:31
In reply to RSI -- typing injury, posted by Tabitha on January 31, 2003, at 2:15:08
> Annoyed with family doc who didn't know diddly about any of this stuff, just told me, oh, it's no big deal, you just take anti-inflammatories then get the carpal tunnel surgery.
>Careful with those anti-inflammatories...they can create more problems than they are worth. I'd only use anti-inflammatories if your in the middle of a major flare up and then only short term. Have you checked out the med board posts on natural anti-inflammatories...I would pay particular attention to the fish oil, Turmeric(curcumin) and glucosimine sulfate posts. I believe that a combination of these supplements has helped my inflammation problems enormously.
Also I honestly believe you should make sure you get really good nutrition and rest as much as you are financially able to... the body has amazing self healing capacity given the right conditions. I can't emphasise enough proper nutrition to give the body the proper foundation to heal itself. For gods sake don't listen to your doc and "Just" have the surgery. I have a colleague at work whose problems actually became worse after surgery on both her hands and is extremely angry with the doctors for ever having recommended this course of action to her. My mum had carpal tunnel syndrome and is forever grateful that she didn't listen to her docs advice to have surgery.. she simply made changes to the way she did things and the problem eventually resolved.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________> Now I still have joint pain (getting arthritis?) in all the fingers and muscle aches all up the arms and in the armpits, back, neck, chest, basically entire upper body. I keep feeling lucky that I don't have carpal tunnel, but I've got everything else possible.
>
> It's worst when I'm resentful and pressured at work. Seems like it's that as much as sheer volume of typing that causes the flare-ups.
>I honestly think you have hit the nail on the head with this little paragraph. Excessive and prolonged (chronic) muscle tension puts an enormous amount of strain on your joints. Sounds to me like you are holding substantial amounts of tension in your upper body and probably even your entire body without even realising it. I used to have exactly your problem and still at times get this problem until I learned to release the tension I hold in my entire body.
Do you have poor posture at the keyboard?....do you slouch and hunch your shoulders without being aware of it?....do you clench your jaw when you are typing?....I'd be willing to bet that you have at least some of these problems.....poor posture can greatly aggravate rsi in the wrists and hands.
I do yoga and other relaxation and stress management techniques to help me but the one thing I found the biggest help of all and what I personally found made the single biggest impact in helping to alleviate all those niggly aches and pains in ALL of my joints was a series of Alexander Technique lessons that I took. The Alexander Technique has been used for well over a century by those in the performing arts including piano players and actually will teach you how to use your body efficiently and as nature intended you to use it. These lessons are not cheap (but then neither is massage)and nor are they easy because you have to re-learn how to use your entire body and break long held bad body habits but if you can find a good certified teacher in your area I really could not recommend this technique highly enough. It really helped me without a shadow of doubt.
Just look in your local phone book or ring one of the performing arts schools in your area to see if they can recommend anyone to you to give you lessons. Also if you do a Google search or Yahoo search on the Alexander Technique you will find a wealth of information on the net about the technique and may even find links to teachers in your area.
Give it a go...you have nothing to lose!!!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________> Anyone have any home remedies for this stuff? I do some stretching but not very consistent about it.
Definitely be more consistent with the stretching but make sure it's GENTLE stretching. Hard stretching can aggravate the problem. I know this from personal experience.....you need to be very gentle with yourself.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________>The wrist supports help more than anything. I have this other gadget for massaging the forearm muscle, and a book about trigger point massage, but all the massage seems to aggravate the inflammation.
Give up anything which makes it worse...sounds like it's too early for massage at this stage or else get youself a better massage therapist. Massage may help and helped me but only after the worst of the inflammation had settled down.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________> Will I end up with gnarled arthritic hands, big knobby joints?
>Nah....and worrying about it will only make you more tense.....you can avoid the knobbly joints but you have to be pro-active and start doing something about it now ....sounds like you've already started doing some of the right things
Good luck (by the way I did see your little post a little while back...(you know Pssst) but I had to dart back behind my own little rock before I could post a response.)
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 11:22:32
In reply to Re: RSI -- typing injury » Tabitha, posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2003, at 7:15:06
>
> Oh, and acupuncture helped enourmously too (but can't afford the weekly treatments any more *pouts*)...
>
> Hope this gives you some ideas
>
> Nikki xxHello Nikki
I reckon you would benefit from Alexander Technique lessons as well.....some of the best Alexander teachers in the world actually reside in the UK. Even though Alexander was an Australian, the English were the first to fully embrace his teachings and he worked with many famous UK performers in the early part of the 20th century. My teacher actaully took his training ( and it is a very demanding 3 year training course to become a fully certified Alexander teacher) under a UK instructor.
And if your new job comes through for you you should be able to stop pouting and actually afford this and your acupuncture again. Maybe the employee health benefits will even kick in and assist with some of the costs:).
Warmest regards
bluedog
Posted by Tabitha on January 31, 2003, at 14:33:05
In reply to Re: RSI - Take Alexander Technique lessons!!!!! » Tabitha, posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 10:17:31
psst, Dog, my whole upper body is knotted and tense lately, even first thing in the morning. I've always had tension in my upper shoulders but now it's the entire upper back. I can feel the muscles all fatigued and exhausted.
Is there a way to release tense back muscles except massage? You say you learned to do this, how? THe alexander stuff? Yoga?
Posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 14:59:41
In reply to Re: RSI - Take Alexander Technique lessons!!!!! » bluedog, posted by Tabitha on January 31, 2003, at 14:33:05
Tabby, have you access to a hot tub or spa where you can sit in very warm or hot water & thoroughly relax? I find lying in a hard tub to be counterproductive. It's not possible to be comfortable enough. The warmth will increase circulation to stiff muscles. When your muscles are contracted, they tighten, pinching off the normal blood flow to each tiny muscle group. Warmth relaxes the muscles & lets the blood flow. Then when your muscles are relaxed, that's the best time to stretch.
Another thing - don't be inactive. Put on music when you're alone & dance. Just move yourself however you want to - no one's watching, it's not a competition. Just move your entire body, arms, hips, neck & shoulders. But don't put on something too fast so your movements would be quick. You want to use the dance & music to relax & release tension, not add to it. Music is so healing & our body inately knows to move in rhythm to it.
And when you wake up in the morning, give yourself a few extra minutes to stretch & curl about in bed. When I stretch, it feels so good that I make little grunting, sighing noises. Now my boy kitty imitates me when he stretches. Twist from side to side, letting your body dictate what to stretch. You don't need to force it, it'll feel good. A morning stretch warms up your muscles & gets blood circulating to muscles unused & stiff through the night.
And try to be aware of your muscles & body through the day. When you feel tension building, let your shoulders slump. Wiggle them around. Shift your shoulder joints back & forward, up & down. Do it smoothly. Sag your mouth open. It'll all help to loosen up the tension.
There's no one cure. It's an ongoing thing involving diff tactics to keep us supple & relaxed. Humans weren't meant to sit or stand in one position for long. Don't force your body to do what it's not meant to.
Posted by dreamerz on January 31, 2003, at 19:37:10
In reply to knotted muscles » Tabitha, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 14:59:41
because of my fight against this mood your post is asking for a good spanking!
Sorry in advance --forgive me for my childish fings.
- don't be inactive.Have the phone in reach for 911 put on music when you're alone & crawl. Just force yourself you know you want to - no one's watching--damn good job too! it's not a competition. Try to move your entire body, arms, hips, neck & shoulders. But don't put on something too fast or you'll implode --hence that phone. You want to use the dance & music to relax & release tension, not add to it. Music is so healing & our body inately knows to move in rhythm to it.
And when you wake up in the morning, give yourself a few extra hours to stretch & curl about in bed. When I stretch, it feels so good that I make little grunting, sighing noises...a good change from the screams from the night terrors. Now my boy kitty imitates me when he stretches. Twist from side to side, letting your body dictate what to stretch. You don't need to force it, it should feel good. A afternoon stretch warms up your muscles & gets blood circulating to muscles unused & stiff through the cramp ridden night.
And try to be aware of your muscles & body through the day tell them to co-operate or you'll desert them. When you feel tension building, let your shoulders slump. Wiggle them around. Shift your shoulder joints back & forward, up & down. Do it smoothly or you'll get neck ache for years. Sag your mouth open you know similar to the drooling that often occurs when you try a new med. It'll all help to loosen up the tension.
There's no one cure in fact there isn't any. It's an ongoing nightmare involving diff tactics to keep us hopefull & quiet. Humans weren't meant to sit or stand in one position for long. Don't force your body to do what it's not meant to...get up and SNAP OUT OF IT.Hopefully I forgiven..
Posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 20:23:38
In reply to Re Sorry ISOM sweets but.., posted by dreamerz on January 31, 2003, at 19:37:10
Oh dreamy darling, I'm not offended. It's not meant as a suggestion for snapping out of depression or anything of the sort. It's just what works for me in loosening sore, tight muscles when I'm feeling relatively normal. It's an ongoing fight with my sore muscles.
Sagging mouth & drooling? When I do that at night, I know I've slept well & finally have relaxed. I know it sounds silly, but that little wet spot on the pillow used to be more frequent - it hasn't happened in ages now. I rarely relax enough, even when asleep. Damn my body at times! Muscles co-operating or they'll desert me? Heck, they already have. I just wish they'd taken the stiffness & pain with them.
I'm sorry to hear how crappy you're feeling. When I'd stopped Paxil & was trying to withdraw from it, my body was a nightmare. Sick from one end to another - unbelievably horrid malaise all over that lasted for months. When I read your post, all the feelings of that time resurfaced. It's a horrible thought that you go through this regularly.
Oh well, think of my little boy kitty grunting when he stretches. I hope your kitty brings a bit of light to your life.
Posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 21:55:29
In reply to Re Sorry ISOM sweets but.., posted by dreamerz on January 31, 2003, at 19:37:10
Tabitha
My new suggestion is just keep reading posts made by dreamerz. Laughter is the ONLY cure.
First you'll feel a strange sensation in your jaw which will cause your lips to curl upwards :). Then your jaw will spontaneously relax and your eyes will light up. This sensation will spread to your belly and you will fall off your chair and find youself rolling around on the floor. You may shed some tears during this process but do not worry it's perfectly safe and quoting from Dreamer....no one will see you anyway.
This entire process may only take two minutes per day but your body will AUTOMATICALLY stetch itself with no voluntary effort on your part.
When the attack is over crawl to the phone and call 911.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________Dreamerz
Your post was truly hilarious....I doubt whether your even aware of it:) :). How is your book coming on?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________Iso
I don't believe you at all. I think that YOU are the one that is copying your kitty and your not even aware of it.
I think your kitties have you very well trained indeed but they are gracious enough to allow you to take ALL the credit for their hard work.
much regards from me
bluedog
Posted by Tabitha on February 1, 2003, at 1:27:52
In reply to Tabby, Dreamy and Iso, posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 21:55:29
And Dog, thanks for posting that Dreamer's post made you laugh. I only saw the first sentence when I first read it, so I went back to figure out what was funny, and realized I'd missed the whole thing.
My anti-laughing muscles are thoroughly relaxed now.
Got some of that aspirin cream stuff too. I'm coated in pain-relieving goo.
Yes, perhaps a lifestyle modification is needed. I surely wasn't meant to sit in a tensed up worryball all day. Must lie about and drool more.
Posted by bluedog on February 1, 2003, at 1:42:24
In reply to Re: RSI - Take Alexander Technique lessons!!!!! » bluedog, posted by Tabitha on January 31, 2003, at 14:33:05
> psst, Dog, my whole upper body is knotted and tense lately, even first thing in the morning. I've always had tension in my upper shoulders but now it's the entire upper back. I can feel the muscles all fatigued and exhausted.
>
> Is there a way to release tense back muscles except massage? You say you learned to do this, how? THe alexander stuff? Yoga?Hello Tabbycat
To start with my guess is that depression and stress are probably the chief culprits in your problems especially if you are waking up feeling tense and fatigued in your back muscles...I also get this when I'm in the middle of a major deppressive dip. So I guess I took a multi -pronged approach to healing myself. The starting point was finding the appropriate AD med for me plus the appropriate dose of that med.
Next came the anti-anflammatory meds...ibuprofen for a short while and I also tried celebrex and although they reduced my inflammation I believe they really only cover up the sypmtoms and don't get to the actual cause of the inflammation plus they made me feel Yuk.
Next came the healthy diet and the anti-inflammatory supplements especially fish oil, Glucosamine and Turmeric. I have no doubt that healthy diet, sufficient sleep and these particular supplements helped my situation enormously.
The diet and supplements were a big leap forward but still did not get to the root cause of my inflammatory problems (which was misuse/abuse of my body) and this is where the Alexander technique and Yoga (and daily GENTLE stretching learnt in my yoga classes came in). Yes Alexander technique can teach you to release muscular tension in your shoulders as well.
Don't laugh (even though I did laugh) but Dreamerz advice about crawling around the floor was actually very profound advice and believe it or not at some point an Alexander teacher will actually get you to crawl around on the floor like a baby. You will no doubt crawl completely incorrectly using way to much effort but the point of the exercise is to actually get your arms and shoulders working properly in synch with your neck, head and torso as one unit rather than your arms being loose appendages hanging somewhere in space. This actually had a profound effect on enabling me to relax my shoulders when sitting behind a keyboard.
I had already done nearly a year of yoga before I did my Alexander lessons. The thing is the Alexander lessons actually improved my yoga technique as well.
I do a VERY gentle form of yoga and it's not actually pure yoga and when I mentioned to my Yoga teacher that I was taking Alexander lessons she was actually very pleased and told me that the type of yoga she teaches is actually a combination of Yoga, Alexander Technique, Pilates, Feldenkraus technique and modern relaxation techniques....Nothing in my Yoga classes is forced and it's very typical for someone to leave classes for a term to try one of the purer forms of yoga....find it absolutely terrible and then come straight back to our classes. It's still definitely yoga but my teacher uses a lot of humour and doesn't get all caught up in the guru thing. Though they do run retreats for those that are particularly interested into getting more deeply into the meaning behind yoga but thay don't force this on to you and consequently there is a very low drop out rate from my classes and most of the people in my class have been coming to the same classes for years.
When I did the Alexander technique lessons I became very aware of my body and how I used my body (or more appropriately how I abused and misused my body) I had a series of ten lessons in a short period of time and when I find myself slipping into old habits again I go back for "booster" lessons. When you first go you think nothing is happening at all because it's actually hands on (and one on one) and the teacher very gently coaxes your body into the correct positions and postures with his or her hands and believe me your body and brain will feel completely confused and out of sorts initially but gradually you will come to the realisation that changes are happening in the use of your body and your body awareness that stays with you longer and longer. It is also good in that they don't aim for perfection and the first thing they'll tell you is that there is no such thing as correct or perfect posture but only the correct "use" of your particular individual body.
It's almost impossible to explain to someone who hasn't actually had any Alexander lessons but it's both subtle yet profound at the same time. I mean I discovered that I was using far too much effort even doing simple things like speaking or getting up out of my chair. So the thing is that it teaches you to use the appropriate amount of effort and no more for whatever task you may undertake in your daily life (including things like cleaning the bath or vacuuming). For example most of us tend to use 10kg of force to pick up a 1kg shopping bag which basically wears out your body and joints a lot faster than nature intended.
Also they will teach you to observe babies and small children (before they are ruined by the school system) and you will actually see perfect use of the body to accomplish the tasks that babies and children undertake exactly as nature intended. Animals like cats also use their bodies as nature intended and you can also learn much from observing your cats or dogs if you have them (You have cat's don't you?)
Since my Alexander lessons I no longer suffer from the chronic stress headaches I used to get on average 2-3 times per week by late afternoon at work. I simply don't get them anymore and I credit the Alexander lessons for that.
Also Iso's tip's at keeping yourself moving if you have a desk job is absolutely essential....and this is how I approach my Yoga classes which also each week reminds my mind and body of the Alexander lessons that I took.
Another tip and this is my personal advice only but I think you may even benefit from a SHORT course of a muscle relaxant like valium or klonopin to "remind " your body and muscles what it's actually like to be relaxed and to give you a reference point to work towards because it sounds to me that you are currently in a rather acute stage of muscular tension that needs some rather immediate relief before you embark on the longer term solutions like Alexander technique and yoga (or even good aerobic exercise - However just be careful about exercise at this stage because if your muscles are currently acutely tense and have been for a while you may actually do more damage to your joints than good). Alexander technique will also teach you how to exercise appropriately as well without placing undue strain on your body (Yes elite athletes have also been known to use Alexander technique lessons to improve their sporting performance).
I now do a bit of weight training and this is beneficial for me but my Alexander Teacher very strongly advised against me taking up any weight training or any other exrecise for that matter until I had gained some knowledge about how to properly use my body (and believe me my use of my body was abysmal) Your boby use may be better than mine was so your teacher may give you different advice. It's all tailored to the particular individual.
Hope this provides a little more detail that will be useful for you
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by dreamerz on February 1, 2003, at 14:13:50
In reply to Re: You Too » NikkiT2, posted by bluedog on January 31, 2003, at 11:22:32
The Buddhist centre in my area provides it for free/well you donate whatever you can afford.
I'm too freaky of mind and body to check it out...but Nikki if you find a buddhist centre in your part of London--they don't care if you're not a Buddhist .
Posted by Mr Beev on February 3, 2003, at 16:52:54
In reply to RSI -- typing injury, posted by Tabitha on January 31, 2003, at 2:15:08
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 4, 2003, at 19:53:40
In reply to Re: Nikki/Bluedog, posted by dreamerz on February 1, 2003, at 14:13:50
The nearest Bhuddist Center in at Victoria.. I did some classes there a couple of years go.. And I do want to take them up again.. this was more Meditation though!!
WIll ask at the Buddhist shop I often go to thoguh :o)
Ta for that advice :o)
Nikki x
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