![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 3:57:12
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by sar on February 16, 2002, at 14:38:32
Take a look at this:
http://www.therapy-abuse.net/what_is_abuse.htm
Posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 7:35:58
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experien, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 3:57:12
> Take a look at this:
>
> http://www.therapy-abuse.net/what_is_abuse.htmGod I hate being a woman right now. I want to apologize for the pussy-fication of these times, and say that not all of us agree w/ womans ways of knowing, some of us have been damaged by feminist scholarship and that website up there, if I was a man, I'd beat the sh*t out of it. 'Course it's not saying anything AGAINST men, we live in an age of prejudicial subtlety, these women have learned their lessons about that sort of thing. And they ARE known feminists, though I don't see any acknowledgement of their theoretical underpinnings on the website. I hate that.
And yet, the book-burning mentality shows through somehow. Carrie Nation battle-ax ham-fisted rhetoricians w/ their self-appointed advocacy of "victims". I put the growing cultural disdain toward victimhood per se at their pedicured and bluestockinged feet.
I can't find anything on this website that can't be destroyed, I mean, under VERAL ABUSE
"WITHHOLDING information and not listening empathetically-"
I can't go on my circuits are blown already-
How is not saying something verbal?
How is it abuse?
Not listening? As in HUH?
Empathetically, god help me, it's not a word, it just isn't, I'm sorry, not among educated peoples.Try another one:
"Controlling the client by withholding information about her, ostentatiously taking notes and refusing to show them to her."
1. Definition of Control facile beyond belief. Control is coercion, force, absence of freedom, etc. Control as used here sounds to me like a woman's way of knowing too many soap opera characters by name. Gothic.
2. Infantilization of client. Counter-therapeutic.
3. Assumes shrink's objectivity is superior to the patient's subjectivity. That authoritative "Information about her" he is withholding.
The Cad.
Which rhymes w/ Dad. Ya think?
Withholding fathers, is this Psych 101 or what.One more:
"Tantalizing (I kid you not) the patient sexually w/verbal comments (as opposed to non-verbal comments?) such as "Do you have nice breasts?" "Does your husband have a good looking penis?"...without any physical contact occurring."
People who strangle language this way are, to me, abusive. Not saying I have anything against abuse, not today, not when you can be refused public admission on the basis of wearing an abusive perfume. It's true.
One last thing now, to try to conclude my outburst w/ a smidgeon of compassion. If you look at their 9 basic rights of psychotherapy patients it can break your heart. Every one of them is magical thinking, a fairyland where little girls are held and soothed and the world is your universal tit. I just wish these theorists would deal directly w/ their deep-seated humiliation, and leave the social engineering to grown ups.
trouble
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 8:48:17
In reply to Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by judy1 on February 16, 2002, at 10:52:46
Hi Judy,
I certainly empathize with what you are saying. I have VERY similar fears of abandonment, and while I'm not concerned with whether my therapist cares about me, I become excessively distraught if I think he's "mad" at me.
I have trouble with all those classical psychotherapeutic terms like transference and countertransference and projection. They seem to mean so many things. What does he mean by them?
Does he mean that you are taking tension from the rest of your life and directing it towards him? I definitely do that sometimes and my therapist once said that that was a valuable function that therapists can provide. He was speaking in regard to my childhood therapist, when as a helpless child in my parent's home, it was useful to direct some of my anger at my parents towards my therapist instead. But I know from my own experience that the same might be true for the postpartum period.
Does he mean that you are really angry with him and instead of acknowledging that, you are perceiving that he is angry towards you?
Does he mean that you are subconsciously trying to make him angry with you?
Does he mean that he suddenly reminds you of someone from your past?
Or is he using the ultimate therapist cop-out. You couldn't possibly be angry with me for something I actually did. It's obviously transference.
Like I said, I have trouble with Freudian terms. If I understood what he meant I might have more to say on the subject.
But I certainly understand the fear and frustration that you are feeling.
Take care.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 8:54:41
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experien, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 3:57:12
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 9:02:43
In reply to The very picture of evil, posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 7:35:58
Trouble,
I can certainly understand how someone who has experienced abuse of a very serious nature could find the site about verbal abuse disturbing. And probably the term "verbal abuse" is overused in our society.
But I don't think it's fairytale thinking to expect to be treated with respect and consideration by your therapist, who is after all a paid professional. Most of the ideas listed in the site do represent a basic level of respect, consideration, and civility. I for one expect respectful treatment from the people in my life and for the most part I get it. My therapist always treats me with the consideration suggested in the site. I'm still working on my husband though. Of course, he isn't a paid professional.
Posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 10:51:22
In reply to Re: Verbal abuse » trouble, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 9:02:43
Thanks Dinah,
I can't automatically reject your response, given your consistent reasonableness. But man. I'll talk to my psychologist about these things too. Maybe I've yet to come to my senses after having read the site 3 hours ago, being mad that the ideas presented weren't, um, credited to feminist influence, just presented arbitrarily, as if these are and always have been the rules of engagement, no defense, we'll just act like nothing here is controversial and lay down the law, yes that's how I see it and it's the sort of thing that makes me see red.
But those nine basic rights, just to mention the ones that upset me the most, and if you don't want to hash it out that's cool, but you made it personal, you spoke of how you want things to be in your own life, even implying that your husband misses the mark, and I've been defending their characteristic aofishness so of course this is a can of worms.
Right #3: Not to have her 'reality' challenged. Their quotation marks. I think that's revealing. Also, this rule was italicized. Must be very important. To someone.
Not having your reality challenged is one way to stay crazy. Outside perspectives being the thing that influences one's reality. I just don't understand what they mean by this rule, but it brings to mind imagery of a spoiled princess.
Lots of decent people have supported nefarious social policies, until confronted w/ other views.
Therapy is all about challenging fixed beliefs, what are they doing in therapy if they want to circumvent confrontation?#4: The right to have her feelings and experiences acknowledged as 'real'. Again,their quotes. As opposed to what? Again, it conjures up images of stone tablet veracity surrounding all her stuff.
#5: To receive a sincere apology if she experiences verbal abuse. Italicized. Compulsory sincerity? There's no such thing. They would rather have an appearance of contriteness than a mutual exchange. It's a projection-Revenge of the Stepford Wives.
It makes my blood boil to hear these restrictions defined as a means to intimacy. That is typical feminist cant. Intimacy and policing do not go together. Policing of behavior is a defense against intimacy.
I don't like the word RIGHT used in this fashion. It's ham-fisted hyperbole and intimidation. Do they know what rights are? I think they do. Do they care? No, I think they don't.
Finally, the right not to be criticized or judged. My mind reels.
But you agree w/ these terms of engagement? Well, I don't think you do. Just from reading your posts, nope, and I'm good at spotting women who follow this code of behavior and I don't get that from you. But I'm bewildered, I don't know what else to do but take these rights to my therapist today and see if he can help me see the light.
trouble
> I'm still working on my husband though. Of course, he isn't a paid professional.
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:37:34
In reply to Another book to recommend. Eventually., posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 2:01:53
I had to order the book immediately, just to give myself a good laugh. I'm sorry you're having such difficulty right now with your shrink- if you need to pull back emotionally, would he be willing to just write scripts? I had a period of time where I did that, and eventually we slowly started talking to each other, maybe something to think about? Take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:39:44
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experien, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 3:57:12
Thank you for the link, I need to spend some more time re-reading the article. There were definitely some things in there that were verbatim and kind of scary. Will write back soon- judy
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:47:23
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 8:48:17
I think the transference does refer to feelings of rage from my past, which I agree is helpful and isn't that what the shrink is striving for? I don't believe he would admit to the counter-transference, I see it because I have been a victim of it before (when my ex-shrink crossed boundaries and terminated) and I sought help from a psychologist who explained what had occurred. So I guess I feel he needs to acknowledge that along with the great # of times when he tells me I'm being 'over-sensitive'. If he accepts some responsibility maybe we could have a better relationship, but I don't see it happening. Like I said I lack the courage to confront and possibly lose him. Take care, judy
Posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
In reply to The very picture of evil, posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 7:35:58
My experience with abusive psychotherapists it's not about hysterical feminists or spoiled princesses, it's about real abuse:
WHAT IS REAL ABUSE? REAL ABUSE IS ABOUT:
1.Being threatened to be sent to a psychiatric hospital (just because I DARED to say the HER majesty the therapist wasn't right).
2. Being compelled to go to therapy session under threat (same as above). When i told her that i couldn't come 'cause there were no buses at that time she told me i had to walk. (i had to walk ten miles).
3. She stated that such a threat never took place just a few days later (this is about denying your own reality)
4. When i insisted, the psychotherapist told me i was suffering from a serious form of paranoid delirium (invalidation again)
I told her that i was going to leave cause i didn't want to put up with that shit anymore.
She told me that if i was going to leave i'd got really sick without her help and that i badly needed to be in therapy for at least ten years, otherwise i ran serious risks of becoming schizophrenic: (WITHOLDING INFORMATIONS)
I had been diagnosed as having a latent form of schizophrenia without me knowing nothing about it. When i asked her a few months before about my diagnosis she told me that i didn't have to worry since i suffered form a mild form of neurosis. I was suffering from major depression instead, but i had been unlucky enough to meet this lady when i searched for help.
Real abuse is about destroying someone else's life when you're supposed to help, it's about invalidating his/her reality and thoughts knowing that this person is too fragile to defend herself.
I could tell about a guy who had been diagnosed as schizophrenic by his psychoanalist, put in a psychiatric hospital against his will for years. His life was destroied.
I could tell you countless of these horror stories, but it would take too long. You could find the movie "Francis" quite instructive (it's a real story about the actress Frances Farmer who got a lobotomy for being rebellious). "Girl, interrupted " could give you a hint also (though i prefer the book).Least but not last, therapy abuse it's about totally lacking of empathy also.
Well, may be the word "empathetically" might sound a bit odd to you, but it's a frequently used word among educated persons, believe me.Thanks god someone is taking care of us, wether is the feminist movement, the ecological movement or the anarchist movement i wouldn't care less, as long as they're defending us from these wackos!
That's why we need the declaration of rights inside the therapy setting written on that site, no matter how stupid and useless it might sound.
As a matter of fact ,we need it as we need the declaration of human rights.
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:07:48
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:47:23
Judy,
Believe me. I really do understand.
One day when you are feeling up to it, let's start a thread of shrink stories. We can get all the venom out, end up finding their odd behaviors amusing instead of infuriating, and keep our relationships with them safer and more secure.Dinah
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:14:18
In reply to Re: Verbal abuse, posted by trouble on February 18, 2002, at 10:51:22
I love a good civil debate, Trouble. And you put your challenge so nicely. Just give me some time to print out your post and the site information and give some thought to the whole matter. And why don't you start a new thread with your therapist's thoughts on the matter.
And you never did answer my question about the MMPI. Is that one test you've never taken? (I don't mean that in a negative way. I take every test ever devised to find out what makes me tick. And I still haven't figured it out.)
Talk to you later,
Dinah
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 18:15:56
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
Dear Anna,
I cried when I read your post, for you and me and others 'hurt' by the system. I, too, was threatened by hospitalization several times- actually once the pdoc threatened to have a conservator appointed (he could do this w/o my presence)- I spent the entire week-end hiding in my closet expecting the police to come. I had a shrink who crossed sexual boundaries- I'm still recovering from that one. My list goes on and on- restraints and meds and almost ECT against my will. That I can trust my shrink to any degree now is kind of a miracle, so I stay and I'll try to work with him. The Hazelton sp? has a patients bill of rights and you can make out a type of will to protect your rights, maybe someone has the address? I'm sorry for what you've had to go through- judy
Posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:07:48
Thank you Dinah for your understanding. I think I may have gotten a little triggered by Anna's post- too many bad memories. But I do like the idea of putting it in an amusing context, I'm sure a lot of people have their stories. I'm off to comfort the baby (and be comforted)- judy
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
That was a terrible experience, Anna Laura. No one should be treated that way. And if I'm remembering correctly, it wasn't your only bad experience with mental health professionals?
Therapists have such a unique position of power in relationship to clients. Not only do they have influence on us personally in a very unequal relationship, but they also have the ability to label us and influence the way others see us.
Anyone with that kind of power should be held to a very high standard of ethics.
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:36:52
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
> Thank you Dinah for your understanding. I think I may have gotten a little triggered by Anna's post- too many bad memories. But I do like the idea of putting it in an amusing context, I'm sure a lot of people have their stories. I'm off to comfort the baby (and be comforted)- judy
Your last sentence gave me a warm glow. I'm so glad you are able to be comforted by as well as give comfort to your little one.
I just wanted to make clear that I was suggesting a thread about the mental health professionals with whom we basically have a good relationship and who we trust, but that on occasion show insensitivity and stupidity of monumental proportions. And who use Freudian terms to confuse and silence us. Things of that nature. But ones with whom we wish to keep a good and helpful relationship.
There is nothing remotely amusing about the stories of abuse that you and Anna Laura endured.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:25:33
In reply to Re: Another book to recommend. Eventually. » trouble, posted by judy1 on February 18, 2002, at 15:37:34
> I had to order the book immediately, just to give myself a good laugh. I'm sorry you're having such difficulty right now with your shrink- if you need to pull back emotionally, would he be willing to just write scripts? I had a period of time where I did that, and eventually we slowly started talking to each other, maybe something to think about? Take care, judy
Thanks for the tip, do you mind telling me more about how you went about this? My pdoc and I have such a weird dynamic I'm at a loss as to how to
approach him about my new hesitancy. thanks, trouble.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:34:51
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil, posted by Anna Laura on February 18, 2002, at 17:05:59
> My experience with abusive psychotherapists it's not about hysterical feminists or spoiled princesses, it's about real abuse:
>Well sure, but your pdoc sounds crazy. I wasn't attacking your experience, sorry if you took it that way.
Under number three below, in my opinion she was lying.
By the way Frances Farmer is on my top ten lists of contemporary role models, her book WILL THERE REALLY BE A MORNING is a hoot, esp her glorious homophobia and the way she erefers to her psychotics episodes as a "smash-up".
Take care.
trouble
>
> 1.Being threatened to be sent to a psychiatric hospital (just because I DARED to say the HER majesty the therapist wasn't right).
> 2. Being compelled to go to therapy session under threat (same as above). When i told her that i couldn't come 'cause there were no buses at that time she told me i had to walk. (i had to walk ten miles).
> 3. She stated that such a threat never took place just a few days later (this is about denying your own reality)
> 4. When i insisted, the psychotherapist told me i was suffering from a serious form of paranoid delirium (invalidation again)
> I told her that i was going to leave cause i didn't want to put up with that shit anymore.
> She told me that if i was going to leave i'd got really sick without her help and that i badly needed to be in therapy for at least ten years, otherwise i ran serious risks of becoming schizophrenic: (WITHOLDING INFORMATIONS)
> I had been diagnosed as having a latent form of schizophrenia without me knowing nothing about it. When i asked her a few months before about my diagnosis she told me that i didn't have to worry since i suffered form a mild form of neurosis. I was suffering from major depression instead, but i had been unlucky enough to meet this lady when i searched for help.
> Real abuse is about destroying someone else's life when you're supposed to help, it's about invalidating his/her reality and thoughts knowing that this person is too fragile to defend herself.
> I could tell about a guy who had been diagnosed as schizophrenic by his psychoanalist, put in a psychiatric hospital against his will for years. His life was destroied.
> I could tell you countless of these horror stories, but it would take too long. You could find the movie "Francis" quite instructive (it's a real story about the actress Frances Farmer who got a lobotomy for being rebellious). "Girl, interrupted " could give you a hint also (though i prefer the book).
>
> Least but not last, therapy abuse it's about totally lacking of empathy also.
> Well, may be the word "empathetically" might sound a bit odd to you, but it's a frequently used word among educated persons, believe me.
>
> Thanks god someone is taking care of us, wether is the feminist movement, the ecological movement or the anarchist movement i wouldn't care less, as long as they're defending us from these wackos!
> That's why we need the declaration of rights inside the therapy setting written on that site, no matter how stupid and useless it might sound.
> As a matter of fact ,we need it as we need the declaration of human rights.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:42:24
In reply to Re: Give me a little while » trouble, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:14:18
> I love a good civil debate, Trouble. And you put your challenge so nicely. Just give me some time to print out your post and the site information and give some thought to the whole matter. And why don't you start a new thread with your therapist's thoughts on the matter.
> And you never did answer my question about the MMPI. Is that one test you've never taken?Hi Dinah,
Thanks for your friendly answere, you really are a friend in my cybermind and I was worried yesterday that I may have threatened our relationship.
You aren't going to like what my psychologist had to say about the abuse webssite, basically he made me feel I was on the right track, but he and I are really more about dealing w/ my own verbally abusive patterns and that's what we talked about yesterday, how there were 2 times last week when I wasn't nasty toward people under circumstances I would normally have ripped them a new one. This is progress.
I actually did respond to that MMPI post and wondered howcome I hadn't heard back from you. I may have posted it wrong, I still have problems w/ the technicalities on psb, so I'll find it when I get home from work tonite and get back to you. Cheers, trouble.
Posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:57:03
In reply to Re: The very picture of evil » Anna Laura, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 18:25:19
> That was a terrible experience, Anna Laura. No one should be treated that way. And if I'm remembering correctly, it wasn't your only bad experience with mental health professionals?
> Therapists have such a unique position of power in relationship to clients. Not only do they have influence on us personally in a very unequal relationship, but they also have the ability to label us and influence the way others see us.
> Anyone with that kind of power should be held to a very high standard of ethics.Ok folks, here's another hot potato dagnabbit.
IMHO the whole "unequal power" dynamic btwn psychiatry and patients is another feminist myth promulgated for political purposes that serve no purpose but the propagandization of terminal female victimhood.
I am very conversant w/ the history of psychiatry and it is a horror story. But I am not going to let these women replace the doctor's boot on my neck w/ their own, and this unequal power thing is way too complicated to just accept that yep, that's what happens, you have to be on guard, it could happen to any one of us. No.
Listen my gramma had a lobotomy, I've seen my loved ones taken to the psych ward in handcuffs, I read WOMEN AND MADNESS I know what's out there. I could get hit by a bus by walking outside but I learned a long time ago to look before crossing the street.
This conversation is just beginning, isn't it?
I have to go be w/ an Alzheimer's patient now but when I get home I'll make a toast to civility and then pounce on my computer.
Take care,
trouble
Posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 10:04:02
In reply to Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by judy1 on February 16, 2002, at 10:52:46
Dear Friend,
First, my apologies for not having time this morning to read through all the replies already written.
Judy, I think we all fall into two broad categories: those of us who are willing to look at our transference/counter-transference issues, and those who are in denial that they exist.
I believe we create these situations because they are what we need to work on. If we have chosen our therapists wisely, then they hold the boundaries for us when ours dissolve and (for really skillful therapists) they test us to see if we will do the same.
When there's clarity and no dependence, then we graduate, at least until we're ready for more assistance. I think taking breaks from therapy is analogous to resting between physical workouts, and just as crucial to success.
The ideal state -- and we all achieve it at times -- is when we can be faced with inappropriate but powerful desire and opportunity, acknowledge and feel and even (verbally) express those primal urges and longings in a manner appropriate to the situation, and still maintain our values and impulse control in determining our behavior (including mental behavior as well as physical).
Without desire and the opportunity to consummate it, we are still speculating, making predictions based almost solely on intellect, which often is a set-up for self-betrayal. We know we are winning when we can say "no" without denying our feelings, and do it out of love and respect for ourselves as well as the other person.
I don't know if most therapists can handle this level of interaction -- professionally or personally. Yet regardless of technique and their own issues, I think a good therapist will lead us there to help us be strong on our own.
With respect,
Mark H.
Posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 13:45:55
In reply to Re: Another book to recommend. Eventually., posted by trouble on February 19, 2002, at 8:25:33
> Thanks for the tip, do you mind telling me more about how you went about this? My pdoc and I have such a weird dynamic I'm at a loss as to how to
> approach him about my new hesitancy. thanks, trouble.Actually, I e-mailed him- I really do have problems face-to-face, a frown on his part and I'm convinced he wants me dead (and that's a slight exaggeration). If not e-mail, maybe a note or letter explaining your feelings, but saying you feel he understands your needs medically and you would like to continue to see him once a month? for that. I can't imagine him not agreeing to that scenario. He hasn't lost a patient then, just slowed things down until you feel ready to go forward. Wishing you the best of luck- judy
Posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:02:30
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 10:04:02
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your beautifully written response. I feel I have found the right therapist(s)- I have a psychiatrist, male, who does meds and continues with therapy despite a female psychologist that I am now seeing. She has a lot of experience with self injury and dissociation which he lacked and admitted to. In a sense I think I have a re-parenting dyad happening here, which may be helpful for someone with my background. I am curious if you reached the state you described with your own therapist, or is it a journey you are still on? And how did you handle the inevitable breaks in the road, was it a joint effort or do you feel your therapist put more energy in fixing them (assuming you lacked the skills to do so- which I do)? Take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:06:19
In reply to Re: Anyone with transferance/counter-tran experience?, posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:02:30
Posted by Mark H. on February 19, 2002, at 16:31:31
In reply to previous message was for Mark H (nm), posted by judy1 on February 19, 2002, at 14:06:19
Dear Judy,
Thank you for asking. Sue and I "graduated" from therapy with our principal therapist in 1984, at which time we became close friends and extended family with him and his wife (not close in the seeing one another often sense, but in the always including one another in family holiday get-togethers and occasional outings sense).
Sue and I continued with other therapies and paths of personal growth, but until about 1997, it never occured to us to see him professionally once again.
However, with my then-deepening four-year depression, we realized that it might help if we went back to the beginning, either separately for individual support, and/or together as a couple. So we tried both.
It was hard for all three of us to decide whether he should still be our therapist. Could he forget our friendship of almost two decades (Sue's relationship with him stretches back into the late 70s) long enough to still be effective as a psychotherapist? We agreed to give it a try.
At first, he wanted me in group as a co-trainer and co-therapist. This proved personally unsuccessful, in no small part because I rarely focused on my own issues while wearing that hat. However, by changing groups, I was also able to change roles and to drop any pretense of being there as a counselor, when I was definitely there for therapy!
Over time, the greatest challenge proved to be our fundamental difference in values. As practicing Vajrayana Buddhists, our world view is very different from that of humanistic psychology. At first, this worked to everyone's advantage by helping to clarify underlying assumptions about what outcomes would be useful.
I don't mean to be vague here, I'm just trying to avoid claiming one way is "right" and another "wrong." I don't think that was the case at all; rather, his style of psychotherapy is observably effective for many, many intelligent, strong and highly capable people. Nevertheless, the very sense of "self" is in complete conflict with my religion. At some point, one must choose one's path and stop dabbling in whatever comes along (well, I should add, or suffer/enjoy the consequences of dabbling -- again, it's not my place to judge this except for myself).
One of the excellent aspects was our ability to step in and out of our roles as therapist and therapand to discuss the dynamics between us -- what was working and what wasn't. We could be totally at odds during group, then afterwards debrief each other on the interaction and admit our mistakes and successes.
The terminal occurrence for me was a simple mistake on both of our parts. In his system of therapy, he believes that it is healthy and useful to express one's anger in a civil but clear and direct manner as soon as it arises. I resisted any such notion as absurd, but because I trust him based on knowing many of his successes, I decided to give it a try.
Within about 2 or 3 weeks of practicing the expression of "mild irritation" as he called it (in May 2000), I experienced completely uncontrollable inner rage, accompanied by almost constant images of death and dismemberment. I called my psychiatrist and told his receptionist I needed to see him right away.
Fortunately, Scott and others on this forum had much more experience with this sort of mixed hypomanic state than I did and they gave me great advice. It felt quite psychotic and very dangerous to me, but to primary bipolars what I experienced may have seemed relatively mild.
So I took Zyprexa for about a week to 10 days, and all was well. My psychiatrist told me something very interesting, and both my therapist and I learned an important lesson: you don't ask bipolars of any stripe to "express" their "mild irritations" or anger. What it does is kindle rage. The bipolar mind has no idea what "releasing anger by stating what's on your mind" means; it simply jumps from one level of anger to the next, until it is a mental and emotional firestorm that rages out of control.
As for your core question, have I achieved the state I speak of, the answer is that I have not achieved the stability with it that I would like. While my physical behavior is almost always appropriate, my thoughts and speech frequently are not. However, I've worked hard to clarify my values, and when those values are in conflict with my impulses, my values still win out.
I hope eventually that I no longer blurt out whatever is on my mind, and beyond that, I finally reach a point when I will no longer indulge negative or unhelpful thinking. The key word there is "indulge." Perhaps negative thoughts will always arise; the skill I seek is to be able to allow them to come and go without forming judgments about them, attachments or aversion.
I remember something that came to me when I was helping other people with their issues (before my severe depression). It is that the father's job is always to find his daughter completely attractive and to actively protect her from that attraction at the same time. It is our *duty* as healthy adults neither to deny nor to act on the impulses we have that would harm others.
To suppress and deny those impulses is to invite self-betrayal and loss of control (for instance, under the influence of alcohol or drugs), or even illnesses such as cancer that may arise from unresolved inner conflict (and what else is depression at that level?).
So many people's pain is based on the parent not honoring that duty -- either by criticizing the child's emerging sexuality as wrong or dirty (an active form of denial), or by exploiting it for criminally inappropriate personal satisfaction, or even both at the same time.
I hope there is a thread of continuity in these thoughts that you can follow. If not, please ask more questions.
Appreciatively,
Mark H.
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