![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sar on January 23, 2002, at 16:26:19
hello!
i've missed y'all; i've finally discovered a library near my new home that offers free internet access, so i'll finally be able to catch up here (somewhat). & they did confiscate my coffee...
i was doing all right, and then something fell on me; the pressures of everyday life, i guess: no money, no car, not wanting to strip, not knowing what to do, running out of medication, paying cab drivers through the nose because the bus schedule looks like ancient chinese algebra. and so took to sleeping all day, waking up only to cry, eat a little, try to write...
then got drunk and swallowed nearly every pill in my possession, immediately freaked out and called 911, and then, THEN, i drank liquid charcoal given to me in the emergency room, and 2 days later was involuntarily committed to the state hospital, where i spent 6 days and was taken off all medication.
since April 2001, i have been put on 1) prozac, then 2) klonopin, then 3) neurontin, then 4) lamictal. at one time, i was taking all 4 of these drugs. at the state hospital, they asked if i felt that i'd been overmedicated. a new perspective! i said that perhaps i had been, the bipolar stuff was all up in the air anyway, and a nurse suggested that my crazy actions were that of a thrill seeker (made that way because of longterm childhood abuse) rather than a manic-depressive.
hmmmm!
i'm going through withdrawal right now; my legs twitch and my anxiety has returned, but i feel as if--i feel more normal somehow, i can't explain it; perhaps the medication softened me too much, softened me into bed and spending too much, shoplifting without worrying, only wanting to sleep, not caring what i ate.
i'm baffled; i must get re-evaluated and start seeing a new pdoc the 28th; give the history again, all of it, 3 attempts and family history and symptoms and blah blah blah, and then he will make some sort of decision and put me on some whack drug based on 30 minutes of talking with me, and it's all really crazy, AAAAHHH!!! ha ha ha, mmm.....i hope yall are farin better than moi, i'd like to know your opinion. in the hospital, without computers books etc i began to wonder if i'd gotten too involved in the world of psychology: do i have too much surface knowledge, like the first-year med student who diagnoses himself with every disease she reads about? depressed, anxious, borderline, bipolar, give me all of these drugs, doctor! every drug i was prescribed i suggested myself, i knew that i wanted prozac not celexa, neurontin not depakote...and at the state hospital they suggested thatr perhaps i need nothing but therapy.
hmm indeed.....
this is all weird!
ah.
love,
sar
Posted by Dinah on January 23, 2002, at 18:01:28
In reply to ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by sar on January 23, 2002, at 16:26:19
Hi sar,
Sorry to hear you're not doing so well. I was hoping you weren't posting because everything was going well.
A few people have mentioned the "therapy alone" attitude from doctors lately. I wonder what accounts for the sudden change. Have there been any insurance reimbursement changes lately? I am a huge believer in minimizing medication and also a huge believer in the benefits of psychotherapy. I have learned to deal with many of my symptoms by changing my way of thinking about them (see above OCD thread). But not all symptoms can be adequately treated that way and medications are as necessary as therapy. I would look with suspicion on anyone who had an all of either and none of the other attitude. Of course, take advantage of any therapy you are offered. It can make a huge difference!
I hope things start going better for you.
Take care,
Dinah
Posted by Mair on January 23, 2002, at 20:35:35
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by Dinah on January 23, 2002, at 18:01:28
> Sar - I prefer to think that those who leave us are off doing fun things, in the pink of mental health, giving not even a carefree thought to PSB. I'm sorry that's not the case with you (or apparently with Kristi for that matter).
I agree with Dinah and I, too, find it mystifying that a shrink (at a state hospital for god's sake) would disparage meds. Periodically I've discovered that I can feel better on fewer meds. Either I've cut back at a time when I'm just under less stress, or, I sometimes think that maybe this is just evidence that I'm not really depressed and that my depressive feelings are an artificial construct. However, it's been a long time since I've dared to cut out all meds, and while therapy has been very helpful at times, i can't imagine it sufficing in and of itself.
I also think that sometimes I spend so much time analyzing my life that I don't so much "live" my life as observe it. It would be nice to think that I could jettison meds and therapy and somehow forget that I have or ever had depression - I really think that I should be able to do this - sort of "will" my depression away, like it doesn't exist.
However, the meds and therapy are part of my safety net, and the fear of being so depressed that I can't really be treated is too great for me to give up on the course of treatment I've chosen.
Maybe it's also that I'm risk averse and hate roller coasters.
Please stay in touch.
Mair
Posted by JohnDoenut on January 24, 2002, at 0:01:06
In reply to ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by sar on January 23, 2002, at 16:26:19
> this is all weird!
Hmm. In the grand scheme of things, its all weird!
Is that like dont sweat the small stuff, its all small stuff?! :) I dont know. Its wierd.
Keep swimming.
JohnD
Posted by Greg A. on January 24, 2002, at 18:05:03
In reply to ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by sar on January 23, 2002, at 16:26:19
Sar,
I’m glad to hear from you. I missed your posts. Even though you shrug off the episode of taking all your pills and your stay in the hospital, I can imagine that you were feeling pretty bad to go that far. I am very glad that you called 9-1-1. You always sound so ‘up’ in your posts even when describing things like an attempted overdose. The descriptions of waking up and crying are almost like third person observations. You have a great sense of humour (most often at your own expense) and some real insight into life.
I have found the last couple of months when I have not been doing nearly as well as I was, that I have retreated into the basics. For me that means going to work but not stressing myself out too much – just doing ‘mechanical’ things. Doing my part at home so as to not feel too guilty, but allowing myself to beg off lots of things as well. Sleeping – enough but not too much. Eating reasonably. Getting some exercise every day despite feeling sooooo achy and sore. Drinking – but not too much. That has been life the last while. I don’t plan ahead. I just do the basics each day. I am trying to ‘tweak’ my meds to see if I can’t get a better result.
You make so many changes in your life sar. Positive or negative – they are all stresses. Give yourself a chance to be sick for awhile so you can recover. If you just jump from one situation to another, the demons follow. You may think you’ve lost them, but they have this nasty habit of showing up again.
Sorry to go on like this. I know so little of your situation – I can only speak from my own experience. But I do care.Greg.
Posted by sar on January 26, 2002, at 13:25:45
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by JohnDoenut on January 24, 2002, at 0:01:06
hey all,
thanks for the encouragement. for several weeks things were grand: new apartment in the hills etc, but then i fell somehow.
i posted to Kristi that the folks at the state hospital could scarcely understand why i was there: i was sent there because of my attempt and my history, but they described me as happy-go-lucky and normal, and i suppose that i do seem that way, compared to all of the schizophrenics around me (they were wonderful but delusional!).
i am glad you all are still here, and how are you? my internet time is very limited (library) so i can't go through all the threads i've missed but Mair and Greg and JohnDoenut please keep in touch! it helps to have a place like this; my confessions of insanity do not exist in the real world, only in writing, because i fear freaking people out. i cannot confess in real life, i giggle and eat bok choy with delight, this is my honest confessional place and i've missed it.
Mair--how are you? you've always been the sturdy supporter, a wise elder--you give so much more than you seem to receive, and although i have no wisdom to offer you, i want you to know that i am always here to listen & read, and to say whatever my pea-brain possibly can!
Greg--well bonjour! comment vas-tu? so. you have slightly fallen off the wagon. perhaps you haven't and it is only your toe dragging in the dirt. what happened? please let me know. how are you feeling? i'm still drinking but avoiding the blackouts.
JohnDoenut--i'm swimmin. the crawl right now but hope to progress to an enthusiastic butterfly stroke. hope is the seed right now.
love,
sar
Posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 11:34:04
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by sar on January 26, 2002, at 13:25:45
Sar - thanks for the kind words. You may think you have no wise words to offer, but that's not really true and besides, I just love reading your stuff. I'm sorry about the hospital experience and definitely sorry about what took you there to begin with. I hope someone is keeping an eye on you with the no meds regime.
Unfortunately at the moment I feel like I'm on the downward slope of a bell curve ( probably not a good analogy since I don't recall being at the top). Anyway I don't really feel like I can be of much help to anyone including myself. I want to cancel the appointments I have this week with my therapist and my doc, because as long as I'm in my current frame of mind, I can't work on anything very productively, and i'm definitely not motivated to try another drug. That seems like a dead end street to me. I wish I could offer some cheer but i really feel pretty incompetent, and definitely devoid of fight.
hang in there
Mair
Posted by Dinah on January 27, 2002, at 12:51:26
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh » sar, posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 11:34:04
Mair,
I'm so sorry that you aren't feeling well right now. I'm sure I don't have to remind you, but please keep your appointments. You don't always have to work or be productive. However, now might be a good time to practice not "presenting well." Sometimes I really look forward to going to my therapist just to "be". In life there are so many "should be"'s that I try to live up to and sometimes I just like to go the therapist, sit there without saying much, and acknowledge the "as is". In other words, I feel relatively free to experience feeling rotten in the safety of my therapist's office.
I hope the trough of this particular wave of feeling bad isn't too deep and that you are soon on the upswing again. You have been so much help to so many of us. I hate to see you hurting.
Dinah
Posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 20:40:07
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh » Mair, posted by Dinah on January 27, 2002, at 12:51:26
Dinah - Thanks. I think what bothers me is that as with probably most good therapists, mine is pretty much the same regardless of how functional or non-functional I am. She's very dispassionate and likes to discuss things, good or bad, as if we're 2 people just engaged in a serious exchange of ideas. Ordinarily this is fine, even good. Other times there is this enormous gulf between me as a person who can be engaged in those kinds of discussions, and how i actually feel. The other day, for instance, I felt this huge and overwelming rush of anxiety towards the end of the session. I couldn't concentrate on anything she was saying. It was uncomfortable. When I'm feeling as i have for the last couple of days, continually anxious, unengaged with or non-responsive to the people around me because i'm so distracted by ruminative thoughts, it's so hard for me to imagine carrying on a conversation with her that has any value.
She of course has tried to reassure me on numerous ocassions that it doesn't bother her and it shouldn't bother me. That I shouldn't feel pressure to talk intelligently - that it's not my job to figure stuff out on my own so I can present it to her in a neat package. However, I know that there has been some direction to my therapy and that nothing is really accomplished and no progress is really made when I'm more acutely depressed. Because she thinks it's important for me to understand connections, she'll try to get me to identify a source or sources for my current feelings. It'll be like 20 questions for her with me being an unwilling participant, because I don't have the focus or patience for thinking that way right now - I'm too paralyzed with bad feelings and circular reasoning to figure out how I got to where I am.
Sorry - but I didn't mean this to be so long. I'll go because I won't be able to figure out a way to cancel and I'm not the type to just not show. But I'm sure i'll feel like we've lost ground and that I've taken a step backward.
Mair
Posted by Greg A. on January 27, 2002, at 21:23:43
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh » Dinah, posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 20:40:07
I went to my pdoc last week. She is also my therapist of sorts. I have not been doing as well lately and I was trying prior to the appointment to sort out my thoughts. I just couldn't seem to manage to make any sense of the last two months or so. What had possibly led to what and so on. She asked me how I was doing and I said 'You've failed to cure me again! Just sort of joking . . . but her response was 'well at least you've got that part right. A lot of patients come in embarrassed because they are not better as if it is something that is their fault for not trying.'
So go and tell the therapist to get busy and do her job!!Greg
Posted by Dinah on January 27, 2002, at 22:16:24
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh » Dinah, posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 20:40:07
I know what you mean, Mair. My therapist always asked me what caused my mood to change. And it always irritated me. When I recently brought in my "new" diagnosis of cyclothemia, he finally agreed to ask once and then accept my answer of "nothing in particular."
He is also one of those cerebral dispassionate therapists, which suits me just fine. The "warm" therapists tend to make me withdraw. But I'm pretty good at being direct about what I need and he's pretty good about accepting it. So I tell him that what I need is to have a chance to actually experience what I am feeling instead of watching myself feel it. And he tells me that he appreciates me making myself open and vulnerable, or something along those lines. It is really the most valuable service he provides to me, and it is the reason I am so dependent on him. So just a suggestion, but can you tell your therapist that you want to try to be open and vulnerable with her, totally present with her, or something like that? And that the twenty questions can wait till another time?
Of course, talking through the ruminations can also be valuable. I always think of it as trying to remove the knots from the twisted coil of my thoughts. We gently unknot, it twists again, we gently straighten it again and coax it into a slightly straighter line.
Of course, I'm pretty sure the goal of my therapy has to do with connecting to my emotions more and intellectualizing less. And there is certainly a supportive therapy component to it. Your therapy is perhaps more directive and CBT based? So take the above advice for what it's worth. I know that you and your therapist have a good working relationship and you'll work it all out.
Take care of yourself.
Dinah
Posted by mair on January 28, 2002, at 16:58:04
In reply to Mair, posted by Greg A. on January 27, 2002, at 21:23:43
Thanks Greg - you're right. I do feel pretty bad that I'm not any therapist's great success story, and it's pretty hard to point fingers at anyone other than myself. My therapist keeps assuring me that she's with me for however long it takes, and she conveys alot of optimism. On the other hand, she's long since stopped talking about cures so my telling her that she hasn't cured me yet will get me nowhere. I don't really struggle with the drugs-for-life notion anymore. What gets me down is knowing that the drugs will never be perfect, and that I'll forever be dealing with the return of periodically intense depressive feelings. It makes me feel like a perpetual child or adolescent or something - but certainly not someone who should have life more or less figured out.
Mair
Posted by mair on January 28, 2002, at 17:14:28
In reply to Re: Mair, posted by Dinah on January 27, 2002, at 22:16:24
Dinah - your advice is always worth alot. "Open and vulnerable" seems like a tall order to fill for someone as guarded as I am. I think that's why I have such a difficult time communicating when I'm really depressed - because I can't simply make myself be open and vulnerable.
I sometimes joke that I came to this therapist under false pretenses. I was referred to her by my ex-pdoc for some very directed short-term CBT. I think she figured out very early on that I needed something more than that. She incorporates CBT techniques periodically, but that only works when I'm otherwise motivated, focused and in pretty good shape, so we digress alot.
I probably do present pretty well and probably occasionally I do fool her, but maybe it's evidence of my trust that I don't try to as much anymore, and sometimes I know she's figured out what kind of shape I'm in somewhere between the waiting room and her office.
Thanks for all the support. My appointment is tomorrow - I'm still pretty anxious about it, but at least I feel more committed to the idea that I should go, and that some positive can maybe come of it. Now my pdoc appointment later this week is another story...(< :
Mair
Posted by mair on January 28, 2002, at 17:16:20
In reply to Re: Mair, posted by Dinah on January 27, 2002, at 22:16:24
Posted by sar on January 28, 2002, at 19:32:00
In reply to Re: Mair » Dinah, posted by mair on January 28, 2002, at 17:14:28
Mair dahlink:
i've been trying to draw you out for months! i finally won, ha ha, you're in our hands now...
does your therapist ever accuse you of "intellectualizing" your problems? i ask because of your writing style, and your need to have a neat little "package" to present before going to sessions. let us know how it goes tomorrow. how long have you been seeing this therapist?
thanks for bein there. i have good news now. you know that cheesy t.v. program "Elimidate"? well, they were taping in my city and i happened to be at a bar that they went to and--*drumroll,* please!--i think part of my hair and neck may be in the shot!
only 14 minutes, 58 seconds to go...
p.s. the hair, if you happen to watch, is in the scene with the flaming dr. peppers. it is brown. the neck is kind of peachy-beige colored.
love,
sar
Posted by Mair on January 28, 2002, at 21:08:19
In reply to Mair dahlink, posted by sar on January 28, 2002, at 19:32:00
Posted by wendy b. on January 28, 2002, at 23:26:38
In reply to ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by sar on January 23, 2002, at 16:26:19
Hi Sar,
Glad you found the library computers with internet access! I have been pretty much in absentia these days, not because my depression or hypomania have flared up, but because I felt I was spending too much time online, and not really living. Also, my daughter has been sick several times this month, and she has also then given me every virus known to (wo)man. Third, I have been caught in family court stuff (daughter didn't want to visit her dad for quite a while after X-mas), which has made me worried and anxious, my ex can be a real bastard sometimes. Fourth, because I have met a few men online thru a reputable dating service, and I write to them via e-mail a lot. Cool thing is, out of 4 dates, 2 have been very nice. They both want to see me, and I want to see them, again. So within the context of all that, I have been lurking, but not writing much at all.
I'm so glad to hear about what has been happening with you, though I am sorry about the hospital. I have a few suggestions: knowing your backstory as I do, the meds were working fine, you maybe needed to be on less neurontin if it was making you sleepy. And then the uninformed doctor wouldn't write you a scrip for it anymore... It WAS making you feel better, your moods needed regulating. And weren't you trying lamictal, toward the end? Maybe that was the sleepy drug, and should have been discontinued. You wrote many times when on prozac and neurontin how great you were feeling on the meds, and I think you were. You have to be true to your own experience, and not forget about it cuz it's not happening to you right now.
The meds issue is semi-malpractice stuff. They took you off all meds? Can't even believe it... Like someone else said, in a STATE hospital, no less, where drugging people up is the norm (or at least in the popular mind it is). You know and I know you need both meds and therapy. It would probably help if you could attend a group, too. People like us try to convince ourselves every once in a while that the meds are causing all the problems, and we want to just punt them. But that's just an excuse. We blame the meds, and in some cases, it is warranted. And we have to cut back or try other things. Yeah, it's a bitch. But try to get a handle on this: once you find a doctor who knows how to treat you, you will probably be on meds for the rest of your life. And there is really nothing wrong with that. The moralizers who decree with their judgmental attitudes that it's bad, or wrong, or that we're all becomeing a society of drugged-up sleepwalkers are the ones who are wrong. And you are not one of them...
I think you have been treated by a lot of people who were not exactly at the cutting edge of their respective fields. (Joke: What do they call the guy who graduates at the very bottom of his class in med school? Answer: "Doctor." ! ) This is not to demean the docs or therapists who work in the clinics you've been to, but it has been kind of a wasteland for you in terms of getting treatment. I don't think you have had the excellent health-care that you (and everyone else) deserve. I think in Austin there MUST be some excellent clinics at the hospital associated with the university, and probably a good selection of group therapy things, too. Ask around.
Please, don't get hung up on the diagnosis thing again. We've been over this one too, ya know... Abusive parents and the trust issues are biggies for you, that's why you always present well, and you write such funny posts, and you have this 'persona' you feel you need to keep up. You can recognize it in Mair, but not in yourself. For whose benefit are you keeping up the facade? Who are these people who want you to be so wonderfully entertaining? Who are you protecting by keeping up appearances (until you freak out and try suicide again)? A lot of this has to do with your family. Remember in the fall when your brother and your mother beat you up? Of course you do, I know, but when and how you finally come to grips with the horrors of your childhood, will determine how easy your climb out of the tunnel will be. There is a wonderful heart inside you there, that has been beaten down again and again. And it will take many, many years to undo what they have wrought upon you. And you cannot do it alone. And you cannot, I firmly believe, do it without meds.
The state hospital staff and their flippant suggestion that maybe you are just a "thrill-seeker," are out of some surreal B-movie. Please undestand that thrill-seeking is a symptom of bipolar disorder, and you do have all of those tendencies, along with the co-morbid alcohol abuse. You have real episodes of hypomania, and then you drink to bring yourself down. But it's well-known that it does just the opposite. You may have BPD too, I'm no expert. But anti-depressants and mood-stabilizers did help you. The only thing was, you were drinking on the neurontin, and that's a real no-no. When are you going to face that big one? And go thru a detox program? Why is no one looking for a bed for you in one of them? You gotta face that one, cuz you'll never gain the benefit of the mood-stabilizers as long as you are drinking. Brutally honest, my very dear friend, but true...
Anybody else (Kat, Mouse, Dinah, Mair, Kristi) want to comment? maybe I'm not seeing something that you guys can. I want so much for this chick to get well, I can't stand it. Sar, I cried when I read that you'd swallowed all those pills and had to be hospitalized. But then I realized that my wanting you to get well has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, you have to want it, too... Throwing someone a life-raft won't do any good if they don't reach out and grab it. I hope someday you can grab the raft that we all are throwing...
with much love,
Wendy
> hello!
>
> i've missed y'all; i've finally discovered a library near my new home that offers free internet access, so i'll finally be able to catch up here (somewhat). & they did confiscate my coffee...
>
> i was doing all right, and then something fell on me; the pressures of everyday life, i guess: no money, no car, not wanting to strip, not knowing what to do, running out of medication, paying cab drivers through the nose because the bus schedule looks like ancient chinese algebra. and so took to sleeping all day, waking up only to cry, eat a little, try to write...
>
> then got drunk and swallowed nearly every pill in my possession, immediately freaked out and called 911, and then, THEN, i drank liquid charcoal given to me in the emergency room, and 2 days later was involuntarily committed to the state hospital, where i spent 6 days and was taken off all medication.
>
> since April 2001, i have been put on 1) prozac, then 2) klonopin, then 3) neurontin, then 4) lamictal. at one time, i was taking all 4 of these drugs. at the state hospital, they asked if i felt that i'd been overmedicated. a new perspective! i said that perhaps i had been, the bipolar stuff was all up in the air anyway, and a nurse suggested that my crazy actions were that of a thrill seeker (made that way because of longterm childhood abuse) rather than a manic-depressive.
>
> hmmmm!
>
> i'm going through withdrawal right now; my legs twitch and my anxiety has returned, but i feel as if--i feel more normal somehow, i can't explain it; perhaps the medication softened me too much, softened me into bed and spending too much, shoplifting without worrying, only wanting to sleep, not caring what i ate.
>
> i'm baffled; i must get re-evaluated and start seeing a new pdoc the 28th; give the history again, all of it, 3 attempts and family history and symptoms and blah blah blah, and then he will make some sort of decision and put me on some whack drug based on 30 minutes of talking with me, and it's all really crazy, AAAAHHH!!! ha ha ha, mmm.....i hope yall are farin better than moi, i'd like to know your opinion. in the hospital, without computers books etc i began to wonder if i'd gotten too involved in the world of psychology: do i have too much surface knowledge, like the first-year med student who diagnoses himself with every disease she reads about? depressed, anxious, borderline, bipolar, give me all of these drugs, doctor! every drug i was prescribed i suggested myself, i knew that i wanted prozac not celexa, neurontin not depakote...and at the state hospital they suggested thatr perhaps i need nothing but therapy.
>
> hmm indeed.....
>
> this is all weird!
>
> ah.
>
> love,
> sar
Posted by sar on January 29, 2002, at 13:01:51
In reply to What network carries elimidate and when? (nm) » sar, posted by Mair on January 28, 2002, at 21:08:19
Posted by Greg A. on January 29, 2002, at 13:47:31
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by wendy b. on January 28, 2002, at 23:26:38
Wow Wendy! Remind me never to divulge too much information about myself to you!
Seriously – I was commenting to sar about putting on a cheerful mask and displaying it to everyone. I did that for years. I was Mr. Even-tempered. Happy and unruffled all the time. I still remember phoning a friend from work after I checked myself into the hospital (to prevent doing myself bodily harm) I told him where I was and he thought it was a joke. He said I couldn’t be depressed because he knew me so well. It was just not possible. He finally had to come and visit me to believe it. But what an effort to keep up that appearance for so long. And what a way to delay helping myself.
I still catch myself presenting a phony front to people when I am down, but I am much more willing to be sick now if I need to be and let myself heal a bit. I recognize that I have limits. I may not like those limits but I know they are there and now and then, when I try to exceed them, I am sharply reminded that I am not perfect. I cannot handle all things. I am not the best at everything I do. And most of all I do not need to be the best. I can only do what is within me, and I am learning to be happy with that. Sort of.Greg
Posted by sar on January 29, 2002, at 15:05:33
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by wendy b. on January 28, 2002, at 23:26:38
bonjour, mon amie!
i'm glad you're doing well. i had a dream about you last month. you had blue hair...what would freud say about that one?
> >Cool thing is, out of 4 dates, 2 have been very nice. They both want to see me, and I want to see them, again. So within the context of all that, I have been lurking, but not writing much at all.
very cool, and good odds...i'm glad you're dating again, you playah!
your memory is very good; i liked the prozac, klonopin, and neurontin quite a bit, but they weren't enough to curb this last spell. i don't think it was the meds that made me tired (i'd already stopped lamictal: it made me loopy and idiotic), i just didn't know what else to do to escape but put myself to sleep. if i lay down for long enough i will nearly always fall asleep.
>
> The meds issue is semi-malpractice stuff. They took you off all meds? Can't even believe it... Like someone else said, in a STATE hospital, no less, where drugging people up is the norm (or at least in the popular mind it is). You know and I know you need both meds and therapy. It would probably help if you could attend a group, too. People like us try to convince ourselves every once in a while that the meds are causing all the problems, and we want to just punt them. But that's just an excuse. We blame the meds, and in some cases, it is warranted. And we have to cut back or try other things. Yeah, it's a bitch. But try to get a handle on this: once you find a doctor who knows how to treat you, you will probably be on meds for the rest of your life. And there is really nothing wrong with that. The moralizers who decree with their judgmental attitudes that it's bad, or wrong, or that we're all becomeing a society of drugged-up sleepwalkers are the ones who are wrong. And you are not one of them...i was envious of the other patients at State; i think i was the only one not on meds. they would all line up to be prodded and cajoled into taking their pills; every other day or so someone would throw a fit or have a psychotic episode and the staff would hold them down or put them in restraints and give them a shot. and then they'd be all chill.
i'd always liked being on prozac and klonopin; however, the doctors at State felt that i had an "overdose history" and that putting me on meds could be dangerous, that if i was bipolar i shouldn't be on prozac at all, and that if i wasn't bipolar and only situationally depressed i shouldn't be on any meds. they felt that perhaps overmedication had led me to overdose; or perhaps it was my "substance abuse." i explained several times that i've been dysthymic all my life, "the melancholia" runs in my family, that i first considered suicide a good ten years before my drinking habit picked up or even began at all.
then i had to lie and act normal because i'd been committed involuntarily, the place was driving me crazy i was climbing the walls and couldn't wait to get out: i was scared shitless, the place was depressing and frightening, and i felt i was receiving no treatment there. there were simply too many patients for any or all of us to receive proper treatment. it was more like a holding facility than anything else: i was there 4 days before being seen by a doctor (other than the initial assessing one, who asked me "who is the president?" and "where are you right now?" but wouldn't order meds).
i was there on a court-order for up to 90 days; after that 90 days, the court order could keep being renewed. so i put on a happy face. "you're very yang," the doctor said: hard and bright. i've left a message on his voicemail telling him that my withdrawal symptoms have not subsided, only worsened, and to ask why he took me off all meds.
> I think you have been treated by a lot of people who were not exactly at the cutting edge of their respective fields. (Joke: What do they call the guy who graduates at the very bottom of his class in med school? Answer: "Doctor." ! ) This is not to demean the docs or therapists who work in the clinics you've been to, but it has been kind of a wasteland for you in terms of getting treatment. I don't think you have had the excellent health-care that you (and everyone else) deserve. I think in Austin there MUST be some excellent clinics at the hospital associated with the university, and probably a good selection of group therapy things, too. Ask around.you're right, there alot of crappy doctors and i keep hopping around like a little pdoc ho instead of settling my roots anywhere. my only option right now is the free clinic; the one in san antonio was lacking but i'm hoping austin's is better...i can't use the university facilities until i'm a student again, but a friend of mine goes there and she hasn't liked any of the pdocs or therapists there...it's another cattle call, short appointments with no real listening...there are too many students here...mental health care in texas is outrageous, one of the nurses aides at State told me; she'd worked in Pennsylvania all her life and had thought that was bad but was appalled by the Austin State Hospital--not only the facilities, but the "care."
i pretended i was Nellie Bly.
texas isn't really known for anything other than Shiner Bock and Austin City Limits and the Manor Skeet Range and its easy passage into Boystown. oh, and Destiny's Child.
yeehaw!
> Please, don't get hung up on the diagnosis thing again. We've been over this one too, ya know... Abusive parents and the trust issues are biggies for you, that's why you always present well, and you write such funny posts, and you have this 'persona' you feel you need to keep up. You can recognize it in Mair, but not in yourself. For whose benefit are you keeping up the facade? Who are these people who want you to be so wonderfully entertaining? Who are you protecting by keeping up appearances (until you freak out and try suicide again)?
i never knew my writing was even mildly entertaining before i started posting here; i guess it's not to difficult to get the job as the "funny one" in a group of depressives! :) in real life i'm very quiet and shy; i don't really have the courage to attempt humor unless i'm drunk or writing, so i spend alot of time getting drunk and/or writing. i keep up the facade for social reasons: when i let it down in 2000, i lost nearly all of my friends. i went nuts right in front of them and cried and hinted at an upcoming nervous breakdown--freaked them out, depressed them.
so now i hide the bottles and smile. a nurse i know says it's because we're southern girls: we're supposed to hide and smile.
i'm afraid that if my boyfriend knew how sad i really am and have always been, he would leave me. he likes me better off medication, he says. "you're so much more lucid now, not so spacy..." he knows of the hospitalizations, the pills, some of the diagnoses (i keep my mouth shut on the borderline one, as a rule)...he's very supportive, but doesn't understand depression.
> >A lot of this has to do with your family. Remember in the fall when your brother and your mother beat you up? Of course you do, I know, but when and how you finally come to grips with the horrors of your childhood, will determine how easy your climb out of the tunnel will be. There is a wonderful heart inside you there, that has been beaten down again and again. And it will take many, many years to undo what they have wrought upon you. And you cannot do it alone. And you cannot, I firmly believe, do it without meds.
you're right. i've cut off contact with my family for good, it'll be better this way: it's just difficult financially. when my buds in S.A. helped me move here i nearly cried thinking how good they were to me; i felt renewed...it's just going to take time to reconcile all of this mentally...it's 2 months compared to nearly 24 years.
> The state hospital staff and their flippant suggestion that maybe you are just a "thrill-seeker," are out of some surreal B-movie. Please undestand that thrill-seeking is a symptom of bipolar disorder, and you do have all of those tendencies, along with the co-morbid alcohol abuse. You have real episodes of hypomania, and then you drink to bring yourself down. But it's well-known that it does just the opposite. You may have BPD too, I'm no expert. But anti-depressants and mood-stabilizers did help you. The only thing was, you were drinking on the neurontin, and that's a real no-no. When are you going to face that big one? And go thru a detox program? Why is no one looking for a bed for you in one of them? You gotta face that one, cuz you'll never gain the benefit of the mood-stabilizers as long as you are drinking. Brutally honest, my very dear friend, but true...
well, the only thing to read at State was the Alcoholics Anonymous book! (aside from dirty old condensed Readers Digest books...) it was surprisingly captivating and well written, and it's been on my mind ever since. i don't even enjoy drinking anymore, it's just become a disgusting habit. detox isn't for me; no money anyway. salvation army is free but too scary. social pressure to cut back. friends like me better sober. heartening.
> Anybody else (Kat, Mouse, Dinah, Mair, Kristi) want to comment? maybe I'm not seeing something that you guys can. I want so much for this chick to get well, I can't stand it. Sar, I cried when I read that you'd swallowed all those pills and had to be hospitalized. But then I realized that my wanting you to get well has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, you have to want it, too... Throwing someone a life-raft won't do any good if they don't reach out and grab it. I hope someday you can grab the raft that we all are throwing...
i hope i can too. i'm flailing. too close to the suicidal mindframe to conceive of living peacefully. this site has become very important to me in the past year, i feel lucky to have found it and believe that it has been somewhat of a lifeline...i can relate truly honestly here without worries of repercussion...i see the pdoc tomorrow (had to cancel yesterday)and will obtain some Vitamin K(lonopin) at the very least, and probably an AD as well.
spring is nearing; my mood always picks up in the few months that the weather here is perfect.
a nurse who took care of me in the intensive care unit (not at state) cried as she stood over me; before she left, she invited me to come live with her. she wants to protect me, she's never had children, and she's very motherly and pleasant. Warmly darkly yin, with little feather earrings. "Don't worry about rent," she says. so i have a place to go when and if i feel there's no place to go.
the St. Christopher medal is still around my neck...patron saint of travel, and St. Anthony to protect me from evil (i'm not Catholic, just a little superstitious sometimes)...tonight i go to my favorite restaurant, and then i see the boy.
i am having a raging craving for crabmeat soup.
am in my running shoes again.
take it easy, mon amie, and thanks again for your attentiveness.
love,
sar
Posted by mair on January 29, 2002, at 15:48:35
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by wendy b. on January 28, 2002, at 23:26:38
> Sar - I'm sure there are parts of wendy's post that are hard to take - certainly the drinking stuff. I've always been a little too afraid of alienating you to say much about it. On the other hand, I probably worry about you more than I do any other person on this Board because you seem to devalue yourself so much (particularly in relation to your very obvious strengths) and because you don't seem to have much of a support group or safety net. You don't have to "be" anything for us - we all know how great you are. I've never known anyone who drank too much and felt good about it. I've got to believe that alchohol is a form of self medication for you and unfortunately one that cuts you off from meds that could be far more effective. I think I said before that what I wished for you more than anything would be that you appreciate/value yourself as much as we value you. I know most of us suffer in the self esteem department, but the troubles you have owning up to your own vulnerabilities seem to stand in the way of you really addressing them.
Wasn't there some goofy expression like "Dare to be Me."?
Mair
BTW I spent 2 hours with my therapist today. That in and of itself should tell you that I had no problem expressing to her how vulnerable I am right now. She was very frank about the need for me to do something preemptive to make sure I stop my current slide before it gets alot worse. I think maybe I'm going to bag things for 5 or 6 days and go visit a friend of mine in Fla. My therapist's preference would be that I keep my appt. with my pdoc tomorrow (which I'd dearly love to skip) and then go directly to an airport and get out of here. Practicalities will intervene for at least a couple of more weeks but maybe I can pull off a change of scenery then. Somehow it doesn't seem right that I hobble along with access to very good health care, and you're out there trying to manage so much on your own. I think I need the help I'm getting now but I sure wish I could find a way to direct some of it your way.
Posted by Greg A. on January 29, 2002, at 15:49:36
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh Wendy, posted by sar on January 29, 2002, at 15:05:33
sar - sorry to butt in . . . but I could happily read your writings all day.
Greg
Posted by Dinah on January 29, 2002, at 18:17:20
In reply to Sar - Wendy's right, posted by mair on January 29, 2002, at 15:48:35
Two hours with your therapist?!!!! I am so impressed with her. I didn't even know that could be done. Depressed, suicidal, whatever, my time is up in at most 50 minutes. My therapist did offer to see me directly to ER one time, or did he offer to have someone come to escort me to the ER. Something like that.
I'm glad you were able to open up to her. She sounds like a gem.
Dinah
Posted by Mair on January 29, 2002, at 21:00:49
In reply to Re: Mair, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2002, at 18:17:20
Dinah
The appointment after me had cancelled, purely coincidentally of course. Also the lengthier appointment was sort of necessitated not only because of my poor condition, but also because I have an issue with one of my kids that really needed hashing out. Nonetheless, I did really appreciate the extra time and her willingness to extend it and it was pretty productive.
I feel that I owe special thanks to you for the idea that it was ok to open up a little more and express my need not to be too analytical about it. At one time she did start to ask about triggers and i was able to tell her that it was just too hard for me to force myself to think that way. I give her credit for the fact that she picked up on this very quickly and backed off.
Thanks very much.
Mair
Posted by trouble on January 29, 2002, at 21:06:13
In reply to Re: ahhhhhhhhhhh, posted by sar on January 26, 2002, at 13:25:45
Hello Sar,
I've been around the site about a week and feel like I've just spent a semester in college, though what class I think I'm in changes from one moment to the next. But I like that.
Been going back thru the archives looking at your postings and all I can say is take care of your whole misspent thrill-seeking bi-polar youth or I'll have to climb into this computer and give you the most insufferable of my top ten most insufferable tongue-lashings. Ciao!
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