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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2001, at 16:34:10
[redirected from: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20011123/msgs/85528.html]
> > I know this needs to go to the social board or probably admin - I'm not sure how to do that.
>
> I don't want anyone to get angry because of my opinions of AA. I know it helps some people. But I have done research and, most importantly, listened to meetings when I went to a youth group next to one as a teenager. I found them to be terrible.
>
> "Cult" is strong - I'm sorry. But I get tired of everyone tauting (sp?) AA as the solution. We certainly need more choices in this country.
>
> - K.
Posted by akc on November 29, 2001, at 16:53:55
In reply to Re: AA « Krazy Kat, posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2001, at 16:34:10
ARGGGGGG!
You know -- I have never, ever touted AA on this board. Or alanon. I know some have done so. If they would read the twelve traditions, they would stopped. This is a program of attraction, NOT promotion. If asked, I'll share my experience, strength, and hope -- my experience. But at the same time, I don't appreciate someone else blanket knocking it. And K, I like and respect you a lot.
My experience. My mom went to alanon back when my dad tried to sober up once. When I started going to alanon 1 1/2 years ago, she was all over it -- she just couldn't understand how I would want to go where there would be such whiny people, on and on and on and on.
My experience. I'm in a group that is all about the solution, not the problem.
My experience. I went to a new "big book" study -- normally I don't go to these -- to "cult-like" for me (I don't do God stuff, and studying some book, whatever it is, like it is god's word, bothers me). Anyway, we got talking about the variety of meetings. The meeting on this corner can be so different than the meeting on that corner. From attitude to philosophy to gender to age. And in my experience, I have seen a lot -- I've been going to AA for over 3 years now in 3 different cities.
I know that there are some preachers in AA. When you get into AA, some of the people in there would have you tow a line. But, unlike some true "cults" -- it ain't quite that bad. You can go to other meetings, you can hang out with other people. There is a variety that if you look around, boggles the mind. Trust me -- I am a lesbian, god-hater, who has a lot of friends in the program right now. Some people probably hate me. But they can't seem to control me. Not a cult.
I just hate anybody completely knocking anything based on one experience. I'm not saying that anyone should go -- that is up to the person. I'm just saying don't knock it. It could save someone's life. It saved mine. And it has saved a lot of friends of mine.
Please, let's all be friends!
akc
Posted by Krazy Kat on November 29, 2001, at 17:46:20
In reply to Re: AA -- Krazy Kat!!, posted by akc on November 29, 2001, at 16:53:55
akc:
I was just expressing an opinion. i was not "blanket knocking" it - I have had experience with it.
I'm glad it has worked for you - I mentioned that it does for some people. But I am tired of people bringing it up, on the med board especially. Itreminds me of the evangelicals earlier in my life and their need to convert everyone. I am entitled to my opinion about it.
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on November 29, 2001, at 17:50:03
In reply to Re: AA -- Krazy Kat!!, posted by akc on November 29, 2001, at 16:53:55
Also, akc, it wasn't One experience. I have done quite a bit of research and talked to others. I Never make decisions quickly or irrationally (unless I'm manic ;)).
Again, I'm glad it helped, but we need to be able to criticize it in our country, and it seems as if everytime someone does, there's a Huge backlash. I don't have to like it just because it's AA. It's bizarre to me that it's protected so much.
I did apologize for using the word "cult" - that was too strong.
- K.
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2001, at 18:02:48
In reply to Re: AA -- Krazy Kat!!, posted by akc on November 29, 2001, at 16:53:55
Sometimes I think Dr. Bob needs to be more careful about the message he chooses to begin the redirect with. It sometimes takes the comments of the first poster redirected out of the context of the original discussion.
Posted by Krazy Kat on November 29, 2001, at 18:08:59
In reply to Re: AA -- Krazy Kat!! » akc, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2001, at 18:02:48
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 30, 2001, at 19:29:47
In reply to Re: AA « Krazy Kat, posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2001, at 16:34:10
[Posted by Noa on November 29, 2001, at 17:09:32]
> I am not necessarily advocating AA for you, but just wanted to add two comments on it.
>
> First, that different AA meetings can be very different from each other, and that for people who are just starting out, it can be a good idea to visit a few different meetings to find the best fit. I also heard from a friend whose teenage son was in AA that the teen meeting in his area was awful, and kids used to go hang out there to buy drugs from each other, etc. He ended up at adult meeting that he liked and was successful with.
>
> Second, I agree with you about alternatives. Especially because of the religious component. There are some new alternatives emerging, I think, based on announcements I've seen in newspapers--more secular groups, for example.
>
> And, having met/known a number of people involved in AA, my experience is that some come across as cultish while others don't. The cultish ones did give me a bad impression of AA, but the others gave me a better impression. Still, I do believe it isn't for everyone--what is?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 30, 2001, at 19:34:20
In reply to Re: AA -- Krazy Kat!! » akc, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2001, at 18:02:48
> Sometimes I think Dr. Bob needs to be more careful about the message he chooses to begin the redirect with. It sometimes takes the comments of the first poster redirected out of the context of the original discussion.
Usually I just take the last one that's there. And include a link back to the original thread (if there already is one)...
Bob
PS: Any further follow-ups regarding this (redirecting) should probably themselves be redirected to PBA, thanks. :-)
Posted by Gracie2 on December 3, 2001, at 22:36:49
In reply to Re: AA « Noa, posted by Dr. Bob on November 30, 2001, at 19:29:47
I didn't know where to post this - so here it is.
AA was not a good experience for me. At the time I wasn't drinking much, but I had a drug problem.
However, my guess is that my psychiatrist who recommended AA to me was hoping their program would help instill values and lessons in restraint. He didn't have a good opinion of NA, as apparently some members get together after meetings to sell drugs and get high. Incidentally, this is not MY opinion - it's his. I
don't know where he came by this information.Since my drinking was well under control at the time, It didn't occur to me at first that having one drink on a social occassion was a great big deal. Everyone in the group admitted to being "clean and sober" during the week until they got to me, and I said, "I had one beer at the ballgame last night."
The room got silent, everyone swiveled around to look at me, and I felt as if I had just admitted to being a terrorist. Then the leader of the group started to YELL at me. I don't know what I expected, - maybe something like, "What made you feel as if you needed that drink?" - but he humiliated me, ranting about my weakness and shameful behaviour and the impression I was making on the other members. I'm 40 years old, and I have enough self-respect left not to allow myself to be treated in that manner. I was too shocked to answer him, but in the middle of his tirade I picked up my things and left. I considered giving him the finger, but decided to exit with dignity.I am sure that not every AA leader is an egotistical p****, and I know that AA has helped thousands of people. Again, it must be a matter of finding the right group, and I just happened to pick the wrong one. In fact, while this man was yelling at me, you could tell he was enjoying himself, that it made him feel happy or powerful or whatever to degrade me in front of a group of people. That was frightening to me. I'd bet my house that this sober humanitarian, who is supposed to enjoy teaching and mentoring and helping others, goes home many nights and beats his wife.
Look at it this way: you get a new job with new HMO insurance. They give you a book with a list of primary physicians acceptable to your HMO, but your regular doctor isn't on the list and you've never even heard of these other family doctors.
I had just a few things to go by - I wanted a board-certified doctor, a doctor fairly close to my home, and a doctor affliated with a hospital that I prefer. Otherwise, it's a crap-shoot, unless you can get a good recommendation from a friend.You meet this doctor, you observe the way he treats you (patient or piece of meat), how competent he seems to be (medical joke- Q:what do you call the student who graduated in last place at medical school? A: Doctor). If you think you like him, continue to see him for awhile. If you think he's a jerk, get out your list of physicians, call your HMO and tell them you're switching primary physicians. You can change as often as you want. I changed doctors twice in a year and finally found a guy that I really, really like. It was worth the trouble.
Do the same thing with AA until you find a group that you like. It takes courage and preserverence. I have 2 things to say about alcohol: if you're wondering whether you have an
alcohol problem, you probably do. The other thing is, once you escalate into true, severe alcoholism, you are standing on the edge of a dark, bottomless abyss. Looking into it is horrifying beyond words, and God help you if you don't have the strength to step back.
For a taste of the ugliness, bitterness, loss, pain, degradation and desperation of an alcoholic,
I recommend you read "Terry" by George McGovern.
A few years ago, his daughter collapsed in the snow, drunk, and nobody found her until after she had frozen to death. Despite the terrible, embarrassing, expensive problems she caused her family for most of her life, the story is a loving memoir of an intelligent daughter who lost her way in life and succumbed to alcohol. It's a very touching book.Will shut up now, work in the morning.
Happy Holidays to Everyone-
Gracie
Posted by akc on December 4, 2001, at 8:30:49
In reply to Re: AA « Noa, posted by Gracie2 on December 3, 2001, at 22:36:49
Gracie,
What happened to you was shameful. I have never experienced an AA meeting as you described. In the meetings I have attened, if a person's drinking comes up at all, it is an opportunity for a person to come forward at the beginning of the meeting that they have drank -- and it is not about being berated, but about beginning a new way of life. And it is so voluntary. I drank this past Saturday. I have been to two meetings. Neither of those meetings have even brought up this standard "opening" question -- so I haven't even felt that pressure there that I might feel of a long time member of AA.
When I first came to AA and after my first relapse, when I did reach out, there was no berating -- instead, as the big book describes, a lot of people shared their story of coming to the program and what the program has done for them. AA should never be a person telling another what to do -- it should always be about sharing my own experience, strength and hope -- the idea then is that the person listening will hear something in the story that he or she will want and will do what I did -- work the steps, come to meetings, call people when the urge to drink is there, etc.
I hate when I hear that such stuff goes on as you experienced, because I know from experience that meetings as you described are the exception, not the rule. To be wounded by AA -- it just makes me stomping mad. (Though, I will say, rumors have it that some NA may be as you doctor describes it -- and if the risk is there, he may not have wanted to chance it.)
This may be to much to ask, but if you ever are fighting your drinking/drugging, I would urge you to try a different AA meeting. They can vary a lot.
I'm sorry this happened to you.
akc
Posted by gilbert on December 5, 2001, at 22:26:48
In reply to Re: AA » Gracie2, posted by akc on December 4, 2001, at 8:30:49
Well AA has turned some on and others off. There are some mistatements about AA in some of the posts on the board and I try not to get pulled into them. I have been sober 16 years. I did 3 inpatient rehabs.....was doing about a fifth of vodka a day by the time I was in my twenties. Drank on antabuse twice....had a cocaine overdose.....etc. etc. etc. AA has saved my life but and here is the but...there are some crumby meetings everywhere....there are some good meetings. Some long time AA members seem to want to self appoint themselves as your personal life instructor...this is not AA, this is ego, AA if studied and read the traditions as well as the big book and other materials was intended to sober people up who choose that path. Now choice is a pretty harsh word most people corner themselves before wanting any help any ways. I think it is quite a vital organization with a tremendous spiritual component defined not by the group but by the individual.....It is unfortunate that people have such bad experiences at some meetings. It seems an attitude thing ...for instance if people were willing to try as many diffrent meetings as they are willing to try meds...they will find some good some bad. If I were to give up on all medication after my first 2 or 3 meds I never would have gotten well. It seems that people who get one bad meeting than characterize all of AA as such. The examples of unconditional love and willingness to help in my life have mostly been quiet unassuming elders in AA with a huge grasp on spiritual living and an ego shrunk so small it cannot get in the way of their loving you no matter what you say or do. These people generally speaking go above and beyond the call of duty for each other.....not uninvited or forced but genuine. I have had my problems with certain people in AA especially the know it alls....what I usually tell new people is that if someone tells you they have the answers turn and run as fast as you can......you have to find the answers for yourself with the support of the group not have the group define what you evolve into sober. That is between you and your God. Yes I dared to use the "G" word, or higher power if you choose or nothing so not to
exclude even the atheist. For me personaly my finding my God was due to AA not even my 43 years in and out of church has given me what AA has in that area of my life. It'sdefinitely not for everybody, I know some sober people who do not go to AA and simply choose not to drink. I just wasn't one of those people.Good Luck,
Gil
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