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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:28:29
In reply to Re: war... » Rach, posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:15:05
What reports??? Show me the footage and maybe I will believe that.
As you said, no bloodshed is worth any cause. ANY cause; including revenge/retaliation/punishment. If the US retaliates against an entire country (or more than one) then when will the bloodshed ever stop? The US gets revenge, only to have Country A, B, C turn around and attack the US, killing more people. The volume of lives lost will be uncountable. Today's tragedy will be repeated over & over. The US government needs to be strong, needs to punish those directly responsible, and then prevent further deaths.
No amount of retaliation will EVER make the grieving process easier. It will just delay the pain. The families may scream for blood, but it will only be detrimental to them, & the country.
>
> Rach, I've heard reports that people in the streets of palesine are recjoicing. Do you think that it is just some rogue element of an obscure part of the middle east? There is an entire nation, if not more than one, who despiss us, (all for a depth of reasons too complex to even note here)... There are children to be sure, there are mothers to be sure, no bloodshed is worth any cause... But what are we to do? What else can we do given our defense policy, a massive and calculated successfull terrorist attack was perpetrated on US soil. We have litterally been forced into a position of retaliation, however you feel on that fact, this is the truth of the matter... No one says that this death is right, no death is right, but try telling that to the families of the grieving....
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:50:20
In reply to Re: war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 13:17:26
I didn't bring this up; but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'this'. All I did was respond to your post, which I am entitled to do.
I am not making light of a tragedy, and I am extremely offended that you suggest this.
What I AM doing, is hoping that the government considers the consequences of war and retaliation. That they consider the lives that will be lost in war, & of how many other countries will become involved.
I think it is disrespectful to those who have died to make their deaths even more meaningless by killing more innocent people, as you have suggested by saying that war is perhaps necessary. Consider how meaningless these deaths are now, and then consider it after thousands more people have died.
I just found it completely disgusting that you want to consider more death a good way to make up for the death that has already occured.
It is You who has been disrespectful. More death will not solve a thing. The people who have died will be forgotten in the politics and the continued death that war will bring. Death will not increase the defence capabilities of attacks like this in the future. It will be more senseless tragedy.
(as for women & children being hurt; I never said that, & I don't think that is fair.)
> I have not completely missed the point Rach. You are making light of a tragedy hours after it has happened!
>
> I can talk forever about how I don't want to see women and children hurt either (by the way, is the women part really fair?), but we're just been ATTACKED. Where are your defense mechanisms? Where's your respect for the people caught in the World Trade Center as it fell in on itself??
>
> I'm sorry but you really shouldn't bring this up immediately after such an event. It's completely disrespectful to my friends who were killed and everyone caught in the tragedy.
>
> Perhaps nothing further will come of it, but the immediate victims, are the ones to be considered first!
>
> - K.
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:54:58
In reply to Re: war... » kid_A, posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:28:29
> What reports??? Show me the footage and maybe I will believe that.
This has been emphasised by two other sources to me... Im sorry I dont have any footage or super8 for you hours after a national tradgedy...
> As you said, no bloodshed is worth any cause. ANY cause; including revenge/retaliation/punishment.
Yet there is worth in bloodshed when it stops further loss of life... I think that is what everyone, (and if you watch the news, nation after nation are declaring their intentions to help eradicate this threat)... I think that is what everyone's goal is... not to *punish* or to give some sort of sick satisfaction to the griefstricken, though I'm sure it will...
Perhaps you would prefer us to put daisys in the rifles of our enemies like Kent State, but in the dynamics of geopolotics this is not going to happen... And I think to ultimately declare a minimal act of pacifism, by removing a few out of hundreds if not thousands of terrorists is not going to make the world a safer place, it also spits on the graves of the dead by making their loss unworthy of any attempt to prevent future loss...
Posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 13:55:57
In reply to Listen,there's a reason we have think about war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:45:08
> I'm not getting the specifics right, but this is part of it. Sorry, I'm a little upset right now, but I don't think it's the time to start talking "theoretically" about the loss of innocent lives to come. New Yorkers and D.C. folk are gone, landmarks are gone, the stock market's down, our society's communication is majorly disrupted.
>
> This is a major, major thing, and anger at whomever is responsible is warranted - not a time for philosophical moments, worrying about terrorists' "souls".
>
> Sorry, but the focus should be on OUR loss, not on some possible future loss of someone else. It's irreverant and incomprehensible to me...Krazy Kat,
I think we all know that we are going to war if we haven't already. That means that future loss of life is not just going to happen. We are going to cause it. I think that makes that loss of life something we should grieve. I don't think that takes anything away from those who died already.
Numbly,
Jane
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:15
In reply to Re: war... » Rach, posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:54:58
>This has been emphasised by two other sources to me... Im sorry I dont have any footage or super8 for you hours after a national tradgedy...
Perhaps you would prefer us to put daisys in the rifles of our enemies like Kent State, but in the dynamics of geopolotics this is not going to happen...*** Sarcasm is disrespectful, unproductive, & hurtful.
>And I think to ultimately declare a minimal act of pacifism, by removing a few out of hundreds if not thousands of terrorists is not going to make the world a safer place, it also spits on the graves of the dead by making their loss unworthy of any attempt to prevent future loss...***Nobody could ever kill all the terrorists in the world. Any large attempt will result in the death of innocent people. I believe the death of even a single innocent person, in relation to this tragedy, 'spits on the graves' of those killed. I know its most likely going to happen, but it is the wrong thing to do.
We're just going to have to disagree on this.
Posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:19
In reply to I'm terribly saddened., posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
I know a bunch of people in Manhattan. None of them work in the World Trade Center, but a couple are on Wall Street, not far away. Most of the others live and work further uptown, mostly Upper West Side. I can't get through to any of them. My g.f. used to live in New York, working for CBS and getting singing gigs on the side, and knows a gazillion people on the Island, through work or fun. She's a wreck. The lack of information is frustrating and frightening.
I also lived in Washington D.C. for a few years, literally right up the streed from the White House (16th St.), and worked for a Federal agency (NIH)...I knew no one at the Pentagon, but I can't imagine what must be going on right now in the city, and especially in any govt. facility. I assume everyone has been sent home...it must be absolute chaos and fear on the Beltway and on the Metro, especially as you move South, towards 395...I'm friends with some people who live in Crystal City, right next to the Pentagon. I mean, they could sit on their balcony and watch the plane crash into it, probably, if they were around.
My heart goes out to anyone who has a friend or a loved one in NY, or DC, who may have been at risk. I have to wonder, given that one of the planes flew out of Boston, if I know someone, somewhere, who has been hit hard by this attack. The odds don't seem that remote, given the huge number of casualties that must have accumulated since this began. Six degrees of separation? Try three, or two, max. Yeah, it could be a lot. As of now, I have no info. I guess I'll just have to wait for news.
I rather cringe at the thought of the aftermath. Not just the immediate human suffering that results from the airline crashes, etc., but the inevitable retaliatory action our country is likely to take. I think it's a safe bet that this is the handiwork of Islamic extremists, given the state of things in the Middle East, our boycotting the Council on Racism under rather flimsy pretenses, etc. My boss at the NIH was an Israeli, and I became pretty close with some members of her family and other Israelis in neighboring labs. There was one woman from Lebanon, also, and I actually witnessed some pretty explosive confrontations on the day a bus exploded in Tel Aviv, maybe '94 or '95, I can't remember now. It was crystal clear to me from my time working with these people that peace in the Middle East was a long way off, and that the support of the US for Israel would inevitably drag us deeper in. With the first attack on the WTC still fresh in our memories, it was easy to predict. My boss said to me, in that thick accent of hers that I loved so much "You have to understand that these people are crazy..they will never, ever stop so long as there is Jew in Israel, until either we are all dead, or they are all dead." Again, like I said, this was shortly after "Peace" in the Middle East was declared. She didn't believe it for a second. I'm not sure she really wanted it, not on those terms, anyway.
I knew better than to argue with her. She was my match and then some, and that is saying much. But during that conversation, I did make one retort: "Well, maybe they're crazy, but we're all crazy." She laughed in a world-weary, sincere way, in a way that a person who actually had witnessed acts of war in her own country does. "Yes, this is true, you're right." She said, and sighed.
All over the world, in the Balkans, the Caucasus, the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, Central America, and on and on, this is the stuff of life. Hunger, violence, disease, hatred. I will not ask God for help or guidance.
We should know better already, than to prove again and again that we are the world's most dangerous animal. If we were given life and free will by a sentient creator, and do the things we routinely do and have done since time imemorable, in the name of justice or faith, what could any thinking creature do but weep at our callowness, our vanity, and our lack of self-restraint. I cannot imagine the US will do anything but retaliate with the biggest show of military might since the Gulf War, maybe worse, and it will solve absolutely nothing. I shudder at the thought of the near future. More terrible things are coming, of that I am quite sure.> I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
>
> akc
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 14:09:42
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:19
My thoughts are with you. I apologise for cluttering these messages of love & good thoughts with my debating.
I am sending love and hope to you, Adam, & your family & friends.
> I know a bunch of people in Manhattan. None of them work in the World Trade Center, but a couple are on Wall Street, not far away. Most of the others live and work further uptown, mostly Upper West Side. I can't get through to any of them. My g.f. used to live in New York, working for CBS and getting singing gigs on the side, and knows a gazillion people on the Island, through work or fun. She's a wreck. The lack of information is frustrating and frightening.
>
> I also lived in Washington D.C. for a few years, literally right up the streed from the White House (16th St.), and worked for a Federal agency (NIH)...I knew no one at the Pentagon, but I can't imagine what must be going on right now in the city, and especially in any govt. facility. I assume everyone has been sent home...it must be absolute chaos and fear on the Beltway and on the Metro, especially as you move South, towards 395...I'm friends with some people who live in Crystal City, right next to the Pentagon. I mean, they could sit on their balcony and watch the plane crash into it, probably, if they were around.
>
> My heart goes out to anyone who has a friend or a loved one in NY, or DC, who may have been at risk. I have to wonder, given that one of the planes flew out of Boston, if I know someone, somewhere, who has been hit hard by this attack. The odds don't seem that remote, given the huge number of casualties that must have accumulated since this began. Six degrees of separation? Try three, or two, max. Yeah, it could be a lot. As of now, I have no info. I guess I'll just have to wait for news.
>
> I rather cringe at the thought of the aftermath. Not just the immediate human suffering that results from the airline crashes, etc., but the inevitable retaliatory action our country is likely to take. I think it's a safe bet that this is the handiwork of Islamic extremists, given the state of things in the Middle East, our boycotting the Council on Racism under rather flimsy pretenses, etc. My boss at the NIH was an Israeli, and I became pretty close with some members of her family and other Israelis in neighboring labs. There was one woman from Lebanon, also, and I actually witnessed some pretty explosive confrontations on the day a bus exploded in Tel Aviv, maybe '94 or '95, I can't remember now. It was crystal clear to me from my time working with these people that peace in the Middle East was a long way off, and that the support of the US for Israel would inevitably drag us deeper in. With the first attack on the WTC still fresh in our memories, it was easy to predict. My boss said to me, in that thick accent of hers that I loved so much "You have to understand that these people are crazy..they will never, ever stop so long as there is Jew in Israel, until either we are all dead, or they are all dead." Again, like I said, this was shortly after "Peace" in the Middle East was declared. She didn't believe it for a second. I'm not sure she really wanted it, not on those terms, anyway.
>
> I knew better than to argue with her. She was my match and then some, and that is saying much. But during that conversation, I did make one retort: "Well, maybe they're crazy, but we're all crazy." She laughed in a world-weary, sincere way, in a way that a person who actually had witnessed acts of war in her own country does. "Yes, this is true, you're right." She said, and sighed.
>
> All over the world, in the Balkans, the Caucasus, the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, Central America, and on and on, this is the stuff of life. Hunger, violence, disease, hatred. I will not ask God for help or guidance.
> We should know better already, than to prove again and again that we are the world's most dangerous animal. If we were given life and free will by a sentient creator, and do the things we routinely do and have done since time imemorable, in the name of justice or faith, what could any thinking creature do but weep at our callowness, our vanity, and our lack of self-restraint. I cannot imagine the US will do anything but retaliate with the biggest show of military might since the Gulf War, maybe worse, and it will solve absolutely nothing. I shudder at the thought of the near future. More terrible things are coming, of that I am quite sure.
>
>
>
> > I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
> >
> > akc
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 14:17:32
In reply to Re: war... » kid_A, posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:28:29
> What reports??? Show me the footage and maybe I will believe that.
=== No one's lying to you - there IS footage.
The US government needs to be strong, needs to punish those directly responsible, and then prevent further deaths.
=== If this were possible, don't you think it would have been done before?
>
The families may scream for blood, but it will only be detrimental to them, & the country.=== You're really going overboard here - families screaming for blood...
Posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 14:19:03
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. » Adam, posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 14:09:42
My heart really goes out to those who have loved ones back East. And Adam, your point about Six Degrees is well placed -- this is such a small world we seem to live in -- though at times we seem so far apart. This incident illustrates that point so greatly.
I'm just broken up when I think of the terror, the pain, the death. There is nothing I can do. I can rant and rave all afternoon long -- more so at god than at anyone. I cannot get my head around why this can happen. No logic can ever make sense of this pain. But then, I can never make sense of my little bit of pain in my little bit of life. This thing may overwhelm me.
So I am trying to work, trying to distract. And trying to just keep hope up.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 14:20:57
In reply to Re: Listen,there's a reason we have think about war... » Krazy Kat , posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 13:55:57
I don't look at it as us causing loss of life. We didn't start this. And something like this takes on a life of its own.
It's fine to wish things were different, but if there isn't a different way to do it, it's just wishful thinking.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 14:21:48
In reply to Re: war... » kid_A, posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:15
---
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 14:27:17
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:19
> Adam:
What is your suggestion to solve this? Try and consider a different president in office, if President Bush is part of the problem. I think that, regardless of party affiliation, this would result in a retaliation of sorts.
How can it not? What other viable option is there?
BTW, I can try to contact someone if you need me to - I am @ 2 hours north of the NYC -- doghappy@ivillage.com.
- K.
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 14:30:18
In reply to What is the right thing to do? » Rach, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 14:21:48
I'm buying candles tonight, to put in my windows... Perhaps its only a small statement, that and what I have written in poetry... But to me, even the smallest thing is a tribute to this great loss...
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:38:34
In reply to Listen,there's a reason we have think about war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:45:08
> This is a major, major thing, and anger at whomever is responsible is warranted - not a time for philosophical moments, worrying about terrorists' "souls".
I don't believe in souls. But I do believe in human life, and there is a good chance that more innocent human lives will be lost. "Us or them" hardly seems like a pressing concern in light of this.
> Sorry, but the focus should be on OUR loss, not on some possible future loss of someone else. It's irreverant and incomprehensible to me...
I think we can multitask. :-) And looking to the future does have its advantages, together with looking to the past and living in the present.
Like all terrorist actions, this one will hardly benefit the terrorists or make anyone sympathetic to their plight. I'd hate to have all the nasty people in New York and D.C. pissed off at me! < g > And make no mistake: the perpetrators will be found, sooner or later.
The hate that entire nations of people hold for us (USA) is irrelevant. As with the OKC bombing, we're too quick to assume (that's "ASS U ME") that they're responsible -- and why? Because we hate them too. That's no more a reason for us to blow them up than is their hate a reason for them to blow us up.
-elizabeth
p.s. women != children
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 14:38:34
In reply to Re: What is the right thing to do?, posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 14:30:18
this got lost somehow... i posted it once, appolgies if it shows up some place odd
Posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 14:43:17
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:19
I pray that you both find your friends and loved ones to be safe and sound. I can only imagine what a heart-wrenching time this must be for you and everyone facing this tragedy. My thoughts are with you.
Greg
Posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:45:17
In reply to I'm terribly saddened., posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
Got some news from my g.f. Those close to the crashes are accounted for. Through another person (so I'm getting this like third or fourth-hand) there is an eyewitness account of the second crash, the 767, I guess. From what I can gather, it happend so fast one could hardly register the presence of the plane. It sped like a bolt into the side of the building, fire and debris spewing out the other side. I can't even imagine. One guy, working just a few blocks away, saw the first tower collapse before he got the hell out of there. He was actually hit bit bits of stuff flying through the air, and covered with dust. Screaming, terrified people running this way and that (him included)...I just can't even imagine. Just unbelievable. But all who we know are safe, as far as we can tell.
I got off the phone with one of my good friends from college, who works in a law firm in DC. They scrambled to the roof, or ran to some other vantage point. He said it looked like all of Alexandria and surroundings was on fire, like a volcano had erupted just across the Potomac. He's going immediately to an ad hoc clinic to donate blood. His voice was shaking. He knows people over there, and has no idea of their condition. I just can't believe it.
Posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 14:47:36
In reply to Re: thinking about war » Krazy Kat , posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:38:34
I don't want to be angry. I don't want to retaliate. I hate this bile stuff that is pouring up out of me -- this "let's hunt them down like a rabid dog." Part of my sadness is that we will retaliate -- while I could live with that if we only hit those responsible, other innocent lives will be lost. Innocents lives. Innocents. I once was innocent. I don't want to be this angry at anyone. Be it god or my father or some terrorist who acts in the name of god or dances in the streets of jerusalum. I want to feel the grief. I want to have compassion for the lives that were lost, for the terror that was felt. But with the sadness and seriousness comes this black bile.
akc
Posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:49:20
In reply to Adam..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 14:27:17
I don't know, Kat. I know it won't make a bit of difference, or help anything. Retribution, just or not, has proven time and again to be the opposite of a deterrant. But it is inevitable. So why even wonder what we should do? I just wonder what we will do, how large the retaliation will be, when it will stop, and so on. In my mind, NOTHING will help this except love and support for those who have been hurt. The rest is business as usual.
> > Adam:
>
> What is your suggestion to solve this? Try and consider a different president in office, if President Bush is part of the problem. I think that, regardless of party affiliation, this would result in a retaliation of sorts.
>
> How can it not? What other viable option is there?
>
> BTW, I can try to contact someone if you need me to - I am @ 2 hours north of the NYC -- doghappy@ivillage.com.
>
> - K.
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:52:29
In reply to Got some news, posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:45:17
> Through another person (so I'm getting this like third or fourth-hand) there is an eyewitness account of the second crash, the 767, I guess.
I've spoken to some people about that, too. They say [insert parental advisory] that they saw the explosion, saw bodies flying from the building and people jumping to their deaths.
> He said it looked like all of Alexandria and surroundings was on fire, like a volcano had erupted just across the Potomac.
I fear for my loved ones in D.C., Maryland, and north Virginia. No word on them yet.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:54:37
In reply to Re: Adam..., posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:49:20
> I don't know, Kat. I know it won't make a bit of difference, or help anything. Retribution, just or not, has proven time and again to be the opposite of a deterrant.
I'm sure those responsible considered this act to be some kind of "retribution" for imagined crimes. We can all see how it's turned against them. Let's not make the same mistake.
-elizabeth
Posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 14:59:20
In reply to Got some news, posted by Adam on September 11, 2001, at 14:45:17
I'm glad you are getting some good news. I hope that you will be one of the lucky ones and all of your loved ones will be okay -- well physically ok -- the emotional damage will be around for sometime.
> Got some news from my g.f. Those close to the crashes are accounted for. Through another person (so I'm getting this like third or fourth-hand) there is an eyewitness account of the second crash, the 767, I guess. From what I can gather, it happend so fast one could hardly register the presence of the plane. It sped like a bolt into the side of the building, fire and debris spewing out the other side. I can't even imagine. One guy, working just a few blocks away, saw the first tower collapse before he got the hell out of there. He was actually hit bit bits of stuff flying through the air, and covered with dust. Screaming, terrified people running this way and that (him included)...I just can't even imagine. Just unbelievable. But all who we know are safe, as far as we can tell.
>
> I got off the phone with one of my good friends from college, who works in a law firm in DC. They scrambled to the roof, or ran to some other vantage point. He said it looked like all of Alexandria and surroundings was on fire, like a volcano had erupted just across the Potomac. He's going immediately to an ad hoc clinic to donate blood. His voice was shaking. He knows people over there, and has no idea of their condition. I just can't believe it.
Posted by tina on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:20
In reply to Re: retribution » Adam, posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:54:37
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your loved ones Elizabeth. I hope everyone is ok.
> > I don't know, Kat. I know it won't make a bit of difference, or help anything. Retribution, just or not, has proven time and again to be the opposite of a deterrant.
>
> I'm sure those responsible considered this act to be some kind of "retribution" for imagined crimes. We can all see how it's turned against them. Let's not make the same mistake.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:00:24
In reply to Re: thinking about war » Krazy Kat , posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 14:38:34
Elizabeth:
I'm not assuming that it is anyone in particular. I'm appalled that we're worrying about the theoretical deaths of the future instead of focussing on a tragedy that just happened a few hours ago.
And yes, it is "us" versus "them". Whoever "they" are - "they" just attacked "us".
I don't understand this lack of insight into the evil in some people and the need to defend ourselves at times. Instead we're defending the terrorists? What the hell...
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 15:03:02
In reply to Elizabeth and Adam, posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 14:43:17
I'm sorry, I know this is really sarcastic, but just because I disagree with you, I can't believe I haven't received any support from anyone in this thread. We've lost friends because of this as I pointed out.
Thanks.
- K.
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