![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JennyR on August 9, 2001, at 16:56:27
My therapist told me in June that he would take the first week in July off and the last two weeks of August. I was there today and he says I'll see you the Thursday after Labor Day. And I say what? What about next week? He says I'll be away. Next week through Labor Day. I say you never mentioned next week, you said the last two weeks in August. He said, yes I guess I said the last couple of weeks. I guess I should have gone over dates. I said you definitely never said three weeks. Actually, from now til when I see him again will be four weeks. He apologized, realized he forgot to tell me what plans he made. Meanwhile he made such a big deal when coming back from the one week in early July asking me a million times what it was like for me was I okay, seemingly unable to accept that it wasn't a big deal (this is the 4th summer with him, it's not ever been that big a dea). So he makes a big deal about the one week he took off ("you must have had a reaction, after all I mean a lot to you, after all, you're used to seeing me twice a week, after all, you're used to me 'being there'((hate that expression)) for you. So he makes this big deal about one week away - which amounted to 10 days of not seeing him, and forgets to tell me that this vacation is not 2 weeks, but 3 1/2 translating into 4 weeks of not seeing him. And this guy is no novice. And we usually have a great rapport. He tells me this on the way out, at the door, not realizing that it's news to me. So now I'm upset, but too bad, because I won't see him for 4 weeks. So I can just stew in it, in how inconsiderate and thoughtless he was. And there were a couple of things I would have addressed if I knew there wasn't going to be a next week. Man, I just can't believe he tells me at the door. He apologized, but still, I think that was incredibly unprofessional.
Posted by Wendy B. on August 10, 2001, at 14:10:02
In reply to Therapist forgot to tell me about vacation, posted by JennyR on August 9, 2001, at 16:56:27
> My therapist told me in June that he would take the first week in July off and the last two weeks of August. I was there today and he says I'll see you the Thursday after Labor Day. And I say what? What about next week? He says I'll be away. Next week through Labor Day. I say you never mentioned next week, you said the last two weeks in August. He said, yes I guess I said the last couple of weeks. I guess I should have gone over dates. I said you definitely never said three weeks. Actually, from now til when I see him again will be four weeks. He apologized, realized he forgot to tell me what plans he made. Meanwhile he made such a big deal when coming back from the one week in early July asking me a million times what it was like for me was I okay, seemingly unable to accept that it wasn't a big deal (this is the 4th summer with him, it's not ever been that big a dea). So he makes a big deal about the one week he took off ("you must have had a reaction, after all I mean a lot to you, after all, you're used to seeing me twice a week, after all, you're used to me 'being there'((hate that expression)) for you. So he makes this big deal about one week away - which amounted to 10 days of not seeing him, and forgets to tell me that this vacation is not 2 weeks, but 3 1/2 translating into 4 weeks of not seeing him. And this guy is no novice. And we usually have a great rapport. He tells me this on the way out, at the door, not realizing that it's news to me. So now I'm upset, but too bad, because I won't see him for 4 weeks. So I can just stew in it, in how inconsiderate and thoughtless he was. And there were a couple of things I would have addressed if I knew there wasn't going to be a next week. Man, I just can't believe he tells me at the door. He apologized, but still, I think that was incredibly unprofessional.
Jenny:
If you're still having troubles understanding why your therapist says things that don't make sense, or does inconsiderate things, like 'neglect' to tell you when he'll be away, then you should try to find another therapist. Now that he's gone, you have 4 weeks to do this.I remember when you posted a few weeks ago, telling about this guy's behavior, and we were talking about transference. He really does seem to have a problem on a number of fronts. You don't just forget to let your clients know the exact dates that you'll be away. They're not supposed to add to our anxiety, they're supposed to lessen it.
Mine went away for three weeks in the spring, and I knew the dates long beforehand, and it's still very hard being without them. Why does your therapist want you to "confess" that you really did miss him? It sounds kind of punitive...
Find a woman therp., perhaps?
Let me know what's up,
Wendy
Posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:30:52
In reply to Therapist forgot to tell me about vacation, posted by JennyR on August 9, 2001, at 16:56:27
Wendy- I wrote a long response to you, and somehow it didn't post. So I did it another day, and it didn't get on there, even though it again said "message added." So I'll make this brief. Thank you very much for you solitary response to my post. He and I did talk on the phone, but the whole thing still has me unsettled.
Thanks again for responding.
Posted by Wendy B. on August 15, 2001, at 2:03:17
In reply to Re: Therapist forgot to tell me about vacation, posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:30:52
> Wendy- I wrote a long response to you, and somehow it didn't post. So I did it another day, and it didn't get on there, even though it again said "message added." So I'll make this brief. Thank you very much for you solitary response to my post. He and I did talk on the phone, but the whole thing still has me unsettled.
> Thanks again for responding.
Jenny, well, hell, i'm gonna just respond again! i wish you would do another long response.... (if i'm having trouble posting, i copy my messages into 'word,' and copy them back into the message box later, sometimes this helps). sorry you had trouble with that. maybe i'll ask dr bob to send you my email address... (?)i hope you can write more about the unsettled feeling you're having. would like to hear more... and sorry about it all. someday i'll tell you my therapist horror story...
best,
Wendy
Posted by JennyR on September 9, 2001, at 18:55:47
In reply to Re: Therapist forgot to tell me about vacation, posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:30:52
I am in a big painful mess.
I won't waste time rehashing what's above other to say my therapist made a big deal about his July one-week vacation when he came back, pressing insistently that it must have been a big deal to me when it wasn't. Then on the way out in August, when I thought I'd see him in 4 days, he said he'd see me in 4 weeks. He had only told me of 2 of the 4 weeks, and with those dates, there was still a week left. He "forgot" to tell me when he changed his plans.
I had a very hard time stewing in it for 4 weeks. Usually, on a longer break, I might miss him but I can deal with it. But I had such a mix of weird feelings that I was pretty freaked out. Because other than how weird that and the July thing were, it's usually great. Except for this other thing he does once in a while of saying something that sounds like he's expressing positive, kind feelings for me but in an ambiguous way (e.g. you are appreciated here) but when I question in he turns it around acts like he didn't say it, puts it on me, talks about my need to hear it - basically jerks me around in a very frustrating way. That only happens a couple of times a year but when it does, we end up wasting several sessions stuck on it with me getting more and more frustrating til he finally admits what he did and I finally let it go.
But overall, otherwise, things were very good, and I go twice a week and it's been 3.5 years. So now he forgets to tell me the dates of his vacation.
I consulted another therapist the 3rd week, because I was still experiencing considerable distress over this. She was sharp and good and she said he definitely has a countertransference problem where I am concerned. She said I should return but he needs to address and resolve this to my satisfaction. I returned. He apologized a lot, but as far as any explanations, they were up there with "the dog ate my homework." So now I think I'm firing him. But am very torn up about it. But as the therapist I consulted said, no therapist should ever fail to tell anyone the specific dates of their vacation, well in advance, even if they always take the same time every year (she does, he doesn't) and that he absolutely has to know better. His explanation is he was so caught up in our hassles over his over-reacting to the first vacation that he forgot to tell me about the second. This makes no sense to me. And he said I am the only one he forgot to tell. And yet, according to what he said after our hassle over the July vacation, he had said that "we work on a very deep level and that is special and unique" and that it does mean a lot to him. Then he tells me on the way out about the 4 week break, thinking he's told me, only of course he has no recollection of telling me because he didn't.
I told him on the way out Thursday, when I first saw him again, that he had not resolved this to my satisfaction and to therefore have a good life. He urged me to return. I am due back tomorrow. I doubt I will go. I think I've quit. But I'm very torn up.
But this woman I consulted said if it doesn't work out, she's there. I may switch to her.
But I am really distressed over all this.
Posted by susan C on September 9, 2001, at 19:53:29
In reply to Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 9, 2001, at 18:55:47
I bet you are. I am not thinking very clearly now, so can only say, to me, my first impression of your experience is sounds like the fellow has an odd way of telling you, or getting you, to quit. 3.5 years, 2x weeks is a long time. Maybe, saying to him, to you, yourself, that it is time for a break, or a second opinion, will give you some 'wiggle' room. Just ruminating out loud.
A distracted Mouse
Susan C> I am in a big painful mess.
> I won't waste time rehashing what's above other to say my therapist made a big deal about his July one-week vacation when he came back, pressing insistently that it must have been a big deal to me when it wasn't. Then on the way out in August, when I thought I'd see him in 4 days > I am in a big painful mess.
> I won't waste time rehashing what's above other to say my therapist made a big deal about his July one-week vacation when he came back, pressing insistently that it must have been a big deal to me when it wasn't. Then on the way out in August, when I thought I'd see him in 4 days, he said he'd see me in 4 weeks. He had only told me of 2 of the 4 weeks, and with those dates, there was still a week left. He "forgot" to tell me when he changed his plans.
> I had a very hard time stewing in it for 4 weeks. Usually, on a longer break, I might miss him but I can deal with it. But I had such a mix of weird feelings that I was pretty freaked out. Because other than how weird that and the July thing were, it's usually great. Except for this other thing he does once in a while of saying something that sounds like he's expressing positive, kind feelings for me but in an ambiguous way (e.g. you are appreciated here) but when I question in he turns it around acts like he didn't say it, puts it on me, talks about my need to hear it - basically jerks me around in a very frustrating way. That only happens a couple of times a year but when it does, we end up wasting several sessions stuck on it with me getting more and more frustrating til he finally admits what he did and I finally let it go.
> But overall, otherwise, things were very good, and I go twice a week and it's been 3.5 years. So now he forgets to tell me the dates of his vacation.
> I consulted another therapist the 3rd week, because I was still experiencing considerable distress over this. She was sharp and good and she said he definitely has a countertransference problem where I am concerned. She said I should return but he needs to address and resolve this to my satisfaction. I returned. He apologized a lot, but as far as any explanations, they were up there with "the dog ate my homework." So now I think I'm firing him. But am very torn up about it. But as the therapist I consulted said, no therapist should ever fail to tell anyone the specific dates of their vacation, well in advance, even if they always take the same time every year (she does, he doesn't) and that he absolutely has to know better. His explanation is he was so caught up in our hassles over his over-reacting to the first vacation that he forgot to tell me about the second. This makes no sense to me. And he said I am the only one he forgot to tell. And yet, according to what he said after our hassle over the July vacation, he had said that "we work on a very deep level and that is special and unique" and that it does mean a lot to him. Then he tells me on the way out about the 4 week break, thinking he's told me, only of course he has no recollection of telling me because he didn't.
> I told him on the way out Thursday, when I first saw him again, that he had not resolved this to my satisfaction and to therefore have a good life. He urged me to return. I am due back tomorrow. I doubt I will go. I think I've quit. But I'm very torn up.
> But this woman I consulted said if it doesn't work out, she's there. I may switch to her.
> But I am really distressed over all this.
Posted by Wendy B. on September 9, 2001, at 22:40:39
In reply to Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 9, 2001, at 18:55:47
> I am in a big painful mess.
> I won't waste time rehashing what's above other to say my therapist made a big deal about his July one-week vacation when he came back, pressing insistently that it must have been a big deal to me when it wasn't. Then on the way out in August, when I thought I'd see him in 4 days, he said he'd see me in 4 weeks. He had only told me of 2 of the 4 weeks, and with those dates, there was still a week left. He "forgot" to tell me when he changed his plans.
> I had a very hard time stewing in it for 4 weeks. Usually, on a longer break, I might miss him but I can deal with it. But I had such a mix of weird feelings that I was pretty freaked out. Because other than how weird that and the July thing were, it's usually great. Except for this other thing he does once in a while of saying something that sounds like he's expressing positive, kind feelings for me but in an ambiguous way (e.g. you are appreciated here) but when I question in he turns it around acts like he didn't say it, puts it on me, talks about my need to hear it - basically jerks me around in a very frustrating way. That only happens a couple of times a year but when it does, we end up wasting several sessions stuck on it with me getting more and more frustrating til he finally admits what he did and I finally let it go.
> But overall, otherwise, things were very good, and I go twice a week and it's been 3.5 years. So now he forgets to tell me the dates of his vacation.
> I consulted another therapist the 3rd week, because I was still experiencing considerable distress over this. She was sharp and good and she said he definitely has a countertransference problem where I am concerned. She said I should return but he needs to address and resolve this to my satisfaction. I returned. He apologized a lot, but as far as any explanations, they were up there with "the dog ate my homework." So now I think I'm firing him. But am very torn up about it. But as the therapist I consulted said, no therapist should ever fail to tell anyone the specific dates of their vacation, well in advance, even if they always take the same time every year (she does, he doesn't) and that he absolutely has to know better. His explanation is he was so caught up in our hassles over his over-reacting to the first vacation that he forgot to tell me about the second. This makes no sense to me. And he said I am the only one he forgot to tell. And yet, according to what he said after our hassle over the July vacation, he had said that "we work on a very deep level and that is special and unique" and that it does mean a lot to him. Then he tells me on the way out about the 4 week break, thinking he's told me, only of course he has no recollection of telling me because he didn't.
> I told him on the way out Thursday, when I first saw him again, that he had not resolved this to my satisfaction and to therefore have a good life. He urged me to return. I am due back tomorrow. I doubt I will go. I think I've quit. But I'm very torn up.
> But this woman I consulted said if it doesn't work out, she's there. I may switch to her.
> But I am really distressed over all this.Hi Jenny,
I'm sooooo sorry that this all happened. As Susan wisely points out, 3.5 years at twice a week is a lot of visits, a lot of good work must have been done.
But he insists that the countertransference isn't an issue, and both you and the other therapist know it is. It's a difficult position to be in, going from the person in need of answers, looking to the shrink for guidance, etc., to being the one with the clearer view of what is currently going on, and the one in control. That turnaround has GOT to be quite unsettling. No wonder you are disturbed, anyone in your position would be.
He sounds like he is very young or inexperienced, and that he might love you, and that he doesn't want to give up on his 'project' (you), til he is ready. But the relationship is in your hands... If you don't want to go tomorrow, you don't have to, but you could do one last session if you're up to it. Closure might be good, and giving him a chance to explain his actions might make you feel better about yourself later on, like, you can tell yourself that you didn't just bag it without careful consideration, a lot of thought, and a dose of anguish thrown in there for good measure...
The fact that you had the courage to get yourself to another therapist before he got back from his unannounced vacation, is very good. It is a sign that there's hope, that you're still committed to therapy, even after this guy behaved in this way. I've heard others on this board curse all therapists, but I believe there are good ones, just as human as anyone else.
The woman shrink sounds good. Understand that she won't be able to 'bash' the other guy because of professional courtesy, but you're going to have to vent. Please post more if you feel better doing it. I have the utmost sympathy and respect for what you're going through, it's very very hard, I stopped seeing my first therapist (an 8-yr relationship), not that long ago, too, and it's made me very sad and confused...
Please take care, and let me know what you decide about tomorrow...
Wendy
Posted by sar on September 10, 2001, at 0:00:07
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist » JennyR, posted by Wendy B. on September 9, 2001, at 22:40:39
*sigh*
Jenny,
i'm sorry you've had to go through this. 3+ years is a long time to for someone to know you on such an initimate level, and i understand your hesitance in leaving.
my own little personal opinion is that you should drop the guy posthaste and hook up with the woman, because she sounds very fair--giving the other therp the benefit of the doubt but still acknowledging all of your feelings. the fact that she didn't try to "win you over" speaks volumes...
i recently got into it with my psychoanalyst, who fucked with me in a number of ways. she took my suicide attempt in february so personally that she was vehement that it revolved around my anger toward *her.* i was like, "look, i've only seen you for 12 sessions!"
they *really* need to keep their counter-transference in check.
i wrote my fired doc 2 letters enumerating on why i would not see her anymore, or pay her most recent bills. do you think writing a letter would help?
best wishes to you,
sar
Posted by sar on September 10, 2001, at 0:03:02
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist » JennyR, posted by Wendy B. on September 9, 2001, at 22:40:39
I have the utmost sympathy and respect for what you're going through, it's very very hard, I stopped seeing my first therapist (an 8-yr relationship), not that long ago, too, and it's made me very sad and confused...
uh! thanks for letting us know! were you planning on enumerating on this, lady??? what's going on?love
sar
Posted by Phil on September 10, 2001, at 5:58:46
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist » Wendy B., posted by sar on September 10, 2001, at 0:03:02
JennyR, Tough deal. I don't know if I could trust this guy enough to try for any closure. His actions speak louder...
If you feel comfortable with the new therapist, you can send him a request to forward your records to Dr. so and so for continuation of treatment.
Keep moving forward and be accountable to yourself and your recovery. You owe this guy nothing and looking back usually doesn't help.
Keep the focus on you.Phil
Posted by Wendy B. on September 10, 2001, at 7:59:30
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist » Wendy B., posted by sar on September 10, 2001, at 0:03:02
> uh! thanks for letting us know! were you planning on enumerating on this, lady??? what's going on?
>
> love
> sarumm, probably not a good idea on this thread, focus should stay with helping jenny, i think - but thanks for asking. more later,
w.
Posted by judy1 on September 10, 2001, at 9:26:18
In reply to Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 9, 2001, at 18:55:47
Maybe I'm doing some transference here ;-) but my relationship with my ex-shrink which crossed major boundaries (and I won't repeat, done it to death) had very similar moments of counter-transference that you just wrote about. I'm not suggesting it's going to get worse, just that the possibility exists. I agree totally with the others, try the female pdoc and expect to feel grieving which you should be able to work on with her. wish you all the best- judy
Posted by fluffykitty on September 12, 2001, at 12:27:12
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist » JennyR, posted by Wendy B. on September 9, 2001, at 22:40:39
Do it! Dont "fire" him, just stop going to him and go to the other therapist. I went to one doctor for almost a year and he kept falling asleep on me. On my last visit when I knew I wasnt going to him anymore I cursed him out and told him why I was so angry at him. He then said he could no longer work with someone who has such anger towards him. This confirmed my decision to leave.
fk
Posted by shelliR on September 12, 2001, at 18:17:50
In reply to Therapist forgot to tell me about vacation, posted by JennyR on August 9, 2001, at 16:56:27
Jenny, if you decide to change therapists, it is really not as difficult as it seems. At least it was not as difficult as I had anticipated, when I left, very afraid but knowing it was the right thing to do. I have changed therapists several times, for several different reasons, and never felt that as I moved on I lost the progress I had made with the previous therapist. The parts of us that have a need to connect and be respected, sort of makes the transition for us, I think.
Shelli
Posted by JennyR on September 16, 2001, at 18:46:13
In reply to Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 9, 2001, at 18:55:47
I didn't go on Monday, he called, I didn't return the call. I didn't go Thursday, but returned the call, got no satisfaction. Wanted some kind of re-assurance that he was examining himself and would guard against these occurances in the future. Only got apologies. Asked for explanations. Finally got the explanation that my being angry over him harping too much on my not having enough reaction over the first reaction made him angry and maybe that's why he didn't tell me about the second vacation. I said "you acted out because you were angry that I was angry?" He said "or maybe I was frightened" (meaning he couldn't handle my having been annoyed at him over harping on the first vacation not accepting that it wasn't that big a deal missing a week. I said "aren't you supposed to be aware of your feelings and not let them interfere?" He said yes. The conversation deteriorated as I got angrier. I went a little too far. And I had said there was no point for me to come back. But then I called him back and apologized for having gone too far and said if the right way to end it is to come in and do it in person I will. I came in, remained calm. He called this an impasse to work out. I said you don't get it, it's over. I gave him a number of additional chances to straighten things out, he said he didn't know what else to say. I told him that certain things had been of some concern to me in the past, but the bond always felt good, but now it doesn't. I don't feel safe, I think he is too lacking in self-awareness, and that if he's not telling me he's really examining himself, and knows he let his own issues get in the way, and is working it out, and unless he can therefore give me some sort of assurance that this sort of thing won't happen again, that's it. that other things had concerned me at times, even though it had mostly been very good, but this vacation stuff, particularly telling me of the 4 week vacation at the door, that this had just tipped the scales and it was now too unpredictable for me and I can't deal with the distress. I re-iterated that the 4 weeks he was away caused me considerable distress because of how he dumped me with no notice. I also told him the fact that he is forever dwelling on the past with me no matter what I bring up "that's because your mother did this, or didn't do that...." that this keeps me sad about things I can't go back and change and that I don't think that's good for me, and that though I've told him that, he still does it. And that I hate my parents now and am stuck in that and he doesn't do anything about helping me go forward through that, and that I just don't think his style is good for me anymore. He said it seems too much has happened. Oh yes, and there was also an incident way in the beggining, about 3 years ago where he let me come to a workshop he was giving about adolescents and in it he gave 3 examples from my material about my son. That had really freaked me out at the time because he never asked if he could include it, and never let me know I would be hearing my own material, told in private, to a group of strangers. (hadn't used my name, but I was very thrown). Anyway, it ended cordially, though during it he said he's felt since he came back that he's been "on trial" with me. I said because what you did, giving me no notice about the vacation was very bad, and that's what tipped the scales to where I can't do this anymore.
I think I'm repeating myself. Anyway, I'm out of there. And still in considerable distress. I'm thinking about seeing the other therapist, the woman I had consulted, but I feel reluctant to get caught up in anymore protracted involvements like this. I think this therapy experience has made me want to withdraw more, rather than reach out to anyone else for help. I never thought it would end so abruptly and messy. It used to be very good.
Anyway, thanks to those who responded. Any additional input would be appreciated.
Posted by susan C on September 16, 2001, at 19:11:01
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 16, 2001, at 18:46:13
ho ho, and you were able to write all of this and keep track of all of this?! I just go away and hide. I told old pdoc receptionist when she called to make an appointment, that I did not want an appointment, that in the letter I wrote I said, he could charge me for time for an appointment to write a summary for my new doctor. He never did neither....no how...
Pat on the back gal, for articulating a very very very difficult situation. If I were you I would just take a break. see how you feel in a couple days. Cool off. do something nice for yourself. Keep flashing a mirror this way to let us know how you be doing and, of course, you will always get our opinions...
mouse with undies in a twist
Sc
> I didn't go on Monday, he called, I didn't return the call. I didn't go Thursday, but returned the call, got no satisfaction. Wanted some kind of re-assurance that he was examining himself and would guard against these occurances in the future. Only got apologies. Asked for explanations. Finally got the explanation that my being angry over him harping too much on my not having enough reaction over the first reaction made him angry and maybe that's why he didn't tell me about the second vacation. I said "you acted out because you were angry that I was angry?" He said "or maybe I was frightened" (meaning he couldn't handle my having been annoyed at him over harping on the first vacation not accepting that it wasn't that big a deal missing a week. I said "aren't you supposed to be aware of your feelings and not let them interfere?" He said yes. The conversation deteriorated as I got angrier. I went a little too far. And I had said there was no point for me to come back. But then I called him back and apologized for having gone too far and said if the right way to end it is to come in and do it in person I will. I came in, remained calm. He called this an impasse to work out. I said you don't get it, it's over. I gave him a number of additional chances to straighten things out, he said he didn't know what else to say. I told him that certain things had been of some concern to me in the past, but the bond always felt good, but now it doesn't. I don't feel safe, I think he is too lacking in self-awareness, and that if he's not telling me he's really examining himself, and knows he let his own issues get in the way, and is working it out, and unless he can therefore give me some sort of assurance that this sort of thing won't happen again, that's it. that other things had concerned me at times, even though it had mostly been very good, but this vacation stuff, particularly telling me of the 4 week vacation at the door, that this had just tipped the scales and it was now too unpredictable for me and I can't deal with the distress. I re-iterated that the 4 weeks he was away caused me considerable distress because of how he dumped me with no notice. I also told him the fact that he is forever dwelling on the past with me no matter what I bring up "that's because your mother did this, or didn't do that...." that this keeps me sad about things I can't go back and change and that I don't think that's good for me, and that though I've told him that, he still does it. And that I hate my parents now and am stuck in that and he doesn't do anything about helping me go forward through that, and that I just don't think his style is good for me anymore. He said it seems too much has happened. Oh yes, and there was also an incident way in the beggining, about 3 years ago where he let me come to a workshop he was giving about adolescents and in it he gave 3 examples from my material about my son. That had really freaked me out at the time because he never asked if he could include it, and never let me know I would be hearing my own material, told in private, to a group of strangers. (hadn't used my name, but I was very thrown). Anyway, it ended cordially, though during it he said he's felt since he came back that he's been "on trial" with me. I said because what you did, giving me no notice about the vacation was very bad, and that's what tipped the scales to where I can't do this anymore.
> I think I'm repeating myself. Anyway, I'm out of there. And still in considerable distress. I'm thinking about seeing the other therapist, the woman I had consulted, but I feel reluctant to get caught up in anymore protracted involvements like this. I think this therapy experience has made me want to withdraw more, rather than reach out to anyone else for help. I never thought it would end so abruptly and messy. It used to be very good.
> Anyway, thanks to those who responded. Any additional input would be appreciated.
Posted by Wendy B. on September 16, 2001, at 20:37:17
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 16, 2001, at 18:46:13
> I didn't go on Monday, he called, I didn't return the call. I didn't go Thursday, but returned the call, got no satisfaction. Wanted some kind of re-assurance that he was examining himself and would guard against these occurances in the future. Only got apologies. Asked for explanations. Finally got the explanation that my being angry over him harping too much on my not having enough reaction over the first reaction made him angry and maybe that's why he didn't tell me about the second vacation. I said "you acted out because you were angry that I was angry?" He said "or maybe I was frightened" (meaning he couldn't handle my having been annoyed at him over harping on the first vacation not accepting that it wasn't that big a deal missing a week. I said "aren't you supposed to be aware of your feelings and not let them interfere?" He said yes. The conversation deteriorated as I got angrier. I went a little too far. And I had said there was no point for me to come back. But then I called him back and apologized for having gone too far and said if the right way to end it is to come in and do it in person I will. I came in, remained calm. He called this an impasse to work out. I said you don't get it, it's over. I gave him a number of additional chances to straighten things out, he said he didn't know what else to say. I told him that certain things had been of some concern to me in the past, but the bond always felt good, but now it doesn't. I don't feel safe, I think he is too lacking in self-awareness, and that if he's not telling me he's really examining himself, and knows he let his own issues get in the way, and is working it out, and unless he can therefore give me some sort of assurance that this sort of thing won't happen again, that's it. that other things had concerned me at times, even though it had mostly been very good, but this vacation stuff, particularly telling me of the 4 week vacation at the door, that this had just tipped the scales and it was now too unpredictable for me and I can't deal with the distress. I re-iterated that the 4 weeks he was away caused me considerable distress because of how he dumped me with no notice. I also told him the fact that he is forever dwelling on the past with me no matter what I bring up "that's because your mother did this, or didn't do that...." that this keeps me sad about things I can't go back and change and that I don't think that's good for me, and that though I've told him that, he still does it. And that I hate my parents now and am stuck in that and he doesn't do anything about helping me go forward through that, and that I just don't think his style is good for me anymore. He said it seems too much has happened. Oh yes, and there was also an incident way in the beggining, about 3 years ago where he let me come to a workshop he was giving about adolescents and in it he gave 3 examples from my material about my son. That had really freaked me out at the time because he never asked if he could include it, and never let me know I would be hearing my own material, told in private, to a group of strangers. (hadn't used my name, but I was very thrown). Anyway, it ended cordially, though during it he said he's felt since he came back that he's been "on trial" with me. I said because what you did, giving me no notice about the vacation was very bad, and that's what tipped the scales to where I can't do this anymore.
> I think I'm repeating myself. Anyway, I'm out of there. And still in considerable distress. I'm thinking about seeing the other therapist, the woman I had consulted, but I feel reluctant to get caught up in anymore protracted involvements like this. I think this therapy experience has made me want to withdraw more, rather than reach out to anyone else for help. I never thought it would end so abruptly and messy. It used to be very good.
> Anyway, thanks to those who responded. Any additional input would be appreciated.jenny,
i know how much this hurts, because i've been in a similar situation. i keep referring to my experience of 9 months ago (sar asked me to elaborate, but...), my therp of 8 yrs made a mess out of things, and i had to leave... but i want the focus to stay on your issues.
it's like being in love. the therapist has been told so much deep, soul stuff, and we have real intimacy on a talking level with them. i think it must be hard for them: the supposed 'boundaries' between 'professional' behavior, and sinking down into acting like a real human with real emotions... it must be very hard to maintain the distance they supposedly need to make the therapeutic situation work. and on the other side, it's very hard for us not to feel intense gratitude toward them for helping us, in fact, i think we *must* feel it, in order for the proper transference to occur. supposedly.
the thing is, how 'scientific' is any of this theoretical bullshit about therapy? the psychoanalysts have their method, the psychologists have another, the CSW's and the MSW's do another thing, the gypsies with crystal balls do something else... i'm not sure any one of them has it down better than any other. so what does it mean when we say he hasn't handled the countertransference well? i don't know... he has let his feelings for you and about you, get in the way of what's best for you. his hurt over your relative indifference to the first vacation (when he insisted you should have felt bad about his being gone)... what was up with that? if you can handle it, so much the better, he should have been happy for you that you got through it just fine.
this is where i think all the theories break down. the therapist is a person, a person as flawed and as human as anyone else. i never understood the word 'professionalism' very well. how many times did my first therp tell me about her friend therp who was a drunk? or her daughter who was an addict? or her rotten relationship with her mother? or her depressed brother? we were client and therapist, but we were also friends in a weird way... i'd known her for 8 yrs... when i made a cake at holiday time, i took her a piece. i asked about her son, or whatever. we can't ignore that the other person has real emotions and problems, at least i can't.
none of this is to say that what he did was alright, i hope you understand...
the feelings of insecurity on your part are very real. you feel you have been let down in a very bad way, that the guy just could not admit he was wrong. just because, it seems, he wanted to make a point. but he didn't want you to leave therapy with him. instead, he clung to a point of honor, that the therapist always knows better. and i think that's wrong, sometimes they screw up. why is that so hard for them to say? mine only said she was sorry i had taken things the way i did, but she never said she was wrong, never. and i wanted her to. so what was the point any more.
this is where it feels like a lovers type of issue, to me anyway. if he/she had only just admitted some small shred of guilt, we could forgive them and then move on. but if they maintain this steely posturing, where they just cannot bend enough to say 'i made a mistake,' then screw it, you're not getting the reassurance you need so that you can stay in the relationship. it feels unsafe for you to be open and honest. you feel self-protective. i guess that is your saving grace, and it's good you have it.
i do not pretend for one minute to have solved the transference/counter-transference thing. i don't know if it confuses things to say it feels like a lovers' situation, but it does to me anyway... i know you at least need to feel safe. and i understand your grief over this. it IS a grieving process, take your time with it. if you need a couple of weeks to decide whether therapy is a good thing for you right now, then take a couple of weeks. you can always discuss it with us here, we're of course interested in your welfare and in the healing process you need to go through.
like i say, i feel very close to this issue on a personal level. it IS very traumatizing. perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that we acknowledge it and understand... i hope so.
all the best, and write again soon,
yer frend,
W.
Posted by shelliR on September 16, 2001, at 22:28:47
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 16, 2001, at 18:46:13
Jenny,I think at this point your therapist is learning more from you than you are from him. I think you handled the situation very well; all you were asking him was to take responsibility for his actions, or to get himself some supervision so that his issues don't get in the way of your progress. ("Wanted some kind of re-assurance that he was examining himself and would guard against these occurances in the future.") This is very mature and rational thinking on your part. To still be able to see the positive and to expect him to work on the problem area. Unfortunately it seems that he can't measure up.
Which brings you back to why you are in therapy. To get things resolved about your past, and to use that knowledge to move on. That is not happening for you with him, so yes, it seems like it's time to move on. You might go to the other therapist at first as a transition, to talk about what happened, and to try to set out what goals you need help in working on--because that is what therapy is all about. It is not necessary to make a long term commitment to therapy right now.
"this is where i think all the theories break down. the therapist is a person, a person as flawed and as human as anyone else. i never understood the word 'professionalism' very well. how many times did my first therp tell me about her friend therp who mother? or her depressed brother? we were client and therapist, but we were also friends in a weird way... i'd known her for 8 yrs... when i made a cake at holiday time, i took her a piece. i asked about her son, or whatever. we can't ignore that the other person has real emotions and problems, at least i can't." Wendy B.
A therapist *is* a person, and hopefully not flawed in the same areas that the client is. A therapist is a coach. Professionalism means that the therapist does mix his/her needs in therapy with your needs, and if that is an issue, he takes the responsiblity of bringing this issue up in supervision, not making mistakes that will affect your therapy and your wellbeing. Almost all therapists have supervision, generally if they've been therapists for a while, they have peer supervision, where they take turns getting feedback on clients that they are having some difficulty in helping move foward toward their goals. This is one of the first things I would ask if I was interviewing for a new therapist.
We want a lot from our therapist, because we missed a lot from our parents, but the therapist is not a parent, and is not a friend. A parent's attention is not confined to several hours a week, and besides we are too old to be parented in that way now; we need to work on with our therapist what we missed as children and how to let it go. Jenny, it seems like your therapist worked more on the missing part and less on the how to let it go part. How to be happy/content, now. How to look at your relationship with your parents, now. A friend is someone with whom the relationship is more or less equal, you do not pay a friend, and your friends needs should be important just as your needs are important. A therapist's own needs should not be important to you; you should be as unaware of them as possible.
Jenny, you say your therapy experience makes you want to withdrawal more. You are very sad and very hurt. But are there things that you have learned from working with this therapist? Things like accepting things about yourself that you weren't able to before, liking things about yourself that you didn't recognize before? The relationship is huge in therapy, but it's magnitude is only useful if it gets us closer to accepting who we are, and learning to be more successful at navigating our life in the direction that feels best to us.
You shared a lot with this therapist (we all do), and it is so disappointing when the therapy does not run it's natural course. But I really do think that you gained more than you lost, and in time you will come to recognize this.
Please excuse me if I inadvertently stepped on fragile feelings, or made suggestions that were not helpful. Things that feel right will resonate within you, and feel free to ignore the rest.
I wish you the best
Shelli
Posted by Cecilia on September 17, 2001, at 1:58:09
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist, posted by fluffykitty on September 12, 2001, at 12:27:12
I don`t have any great advice, but can definitely relate as a similar thing happened to me. Even if you`re the one doing the "firing" it feels like you`ve been abandoned. You have to somehow begin to accept the fact that the person who you thought would change your life isn`t going to. It IS like the bitter end of a love affair, except it feels like losing everybody who was important to you from your entire past life. And these people who hurt us so badly
are the people who are supposed to be helping us! I suppose it`s just like with meds, the people with wonderful therapy experiences, just like the people for whom meds work great. aren`t the ones posting here.
Posted by Marie1 on September 17, 2001, at 20:44:51
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist-JennyR, posted by Cecilia on September 17, 2001, at 1:58:09
There is a line from the book In Session - the Bond between Women and their Therapists that I really found poignant: "Therapy is...like having your heart professionally broken".
I'm beginning to wonder about a system that encourages us to become so emotionally close to someone who, because of that closeness, has such power and ability to hurt us. As Shelli said, hopefully we can still learn enough from the therapy to go on, but in many cases a broken heart in the process is practically guaranteed. My 2 cents, sorry it's so negative.Marie
Posted by JennyR on September 17, 2001, at 21:48:02
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 16, 2001, at 18:46:13
I live in NYC. Witnessed much of the WTC incident in person from one mile away. Had my husband caught up in that second implosion - he ran from that cloud of dust, debris and glass, got covered in ash, but unhurt - he ducked into a Burger King. Life here has been turned inside out. This is at the same time as I am dumping my therapist. I can't get rid of the sick feeling inside and can't even separate which is contributing to what extent. Just so shaken. A pervasive feeling that you are never safe. A terrible sense of overwhelming loss. Can't even separate out how much is from losing my therapist who I had strong feelings for vs. losing a sense that there is some safety in everyday routines.
Numb, then crying, then numb, then angry, then numb.
Everyone I know knows someone who died. I know people who made narrow escapes. I still look each day at where the World Trade Center was (work a mile away) and see the smoke still coming out of it.
My marriage is not good either, and I really truly believe now that there is no point to anything. There is no safety, no security, not anywhere. No, I'm not suicidal. But I'm finding everything so extraordinarily difficult.
I did set up an appointment with the woman I consulted when my therapist was on his unannounced vacation. But I told her it is just for a couple of times to look at how this whole therapy thing ended and how it tore me up, that I do not want any protracted involvements again.
Thanks for letting me rant.
Posted by shelliR on September 17, 2001, at 22:20:00
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 17, 2001, at 21:48:02
> I live in NYC. Witnessed much of the WTC incident in person from one mile away. Had my husband caught up in that second implosion - he ran from that cloud of dust, debris and glass, got covered in ash, but unhurt - he ducked into a Burger King. Life here has been turned inside out. This is at the same time as I am dumping my therapist. I can't get rid of the sick feeling inside and can't even separate which is contributing to what extent. Just so shaken. A pervasive feeling that you are never safe. A terrible sense of overwhelming loss. Can't even separate out how much is from losing my therapist who I had strong feelings for vs. losing a sense that there is some safety in everyday routines.
> Numb, then crying, then numb, then angry, then numb.
> Everyone I know knows someone who died. I know people who made narrow escapes. I still look each day at where the World Trade Center was (work a mile away) and see the smoke still coming out of it.
> My marriage is not good either, and I really truly believe now that there is no point to anything. There is no safety, no security, not anywhere. No, I'm not suicidal. But I'm finding everything so extraordinarily difficult.
> I did set up an appointment with the woman I consulted when my therapist was on his unannounced vacation. But I told her it is just for a couple of times to look at how this whole therapy thing ended and how it tore me up, that I do not want any protracted involvements again.
> Thanks for letting me rant.
JennyI'm glad you did make an appointment to see someone, at least to sort things out. Our feelings (and tears) are so with you. Take care. No response necessary.
Shelli
Posted by Cecilia on September 18, 2001, at 3:58:39
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist-JennyR, posted by Marie1 on September 17, 2001, at 20:44:51
> There is a line from the book "In Session - the Bond between Women and their Therapists" that I really found poignant: "Therapy is...like having your heart professionally broken".
> I'm beginning to wonder about a system that encourages us to become so emotionally close to someone who, because of that closeness, has such power and ability to hurt us. As Shelli said, hopefully we can still learn enough from the therapy to go on, but in many cases a broken heart in the process is practically guaranteed. My 2 cents, sorry it's so negative.
>
> Marie"Therapy is like having your heart professionally broken"-that says it all. If you get better therapy ends and if you don`t get better it ends. My therapy (7 years worth) ended 4 years ago and it still hurts constantly. I go back and forth, missing my ex-therapist so badly I could die, but at the same time furious at her for not being able to help me and for giving up wanting to, and even more furious at myself for not being helpable and for believing in the fantasy of help for so long.
Posted by Cecilia on September 18, 2001, at 4:25:12
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist - VERY upset (LONG), posted by JennyR on September 17, 2001, at 21:48:02
> I live in NYC. Witnessed much of the WTC incident in person from one mile away. Had my husband caught up in that second implosion - he ran from that cloud of dust, debris and glass, got covered in ash, but unhurt - he ducked into a Burger King. Life here has been turned inside out. This is at the same time as I am dumping my therapist. I can't get rid of the sick feeling inside and can't even separate which is contributing to what extent. Just so shaken. A pervasive feeling that you are never safe. A terrible sense of overwhelming loss. Can't even separate out how much is from losing my therapist who I had strong feelings for vs. losing a sense that there is some safety in everyday routines.
> Numb, then crying, then numb, then angry, then numb.
> Everyone I know knows someone who died. I know people who made narrow escapes. I still look each day at where the World Trade Center was (work a mile away) and see the smoke still coming out of it.
> My marriage is not good either, and I really truly believe now that there is no point to anything. There is no safety, no security, not anywhere. No, I'm not suicidal. But I'm finding everything so extraordinarily difficult.
> I did set up an appointment with the woman I consulted when my therapist was on his unannounced vacation. But I told her it is just for a couple of times to look at how this whole therapy thing ended and how it tore me up, that I do not want any protracted involvements again.
> Thanks for letting me rant.I hope things are going better for you. Being that close to the WTC must have been terrifying.
Posted by fluffykitty on September 19, 2001, at 17:23:14
In reply to Re: Think I fired my therapist - JennyR, posted by Cecilia on September 18, 2001, at 4:25:12
JennyR:
>and I really truly believe now that there is no
>point to anything. There is no safety, no
>security, not anywhere. No, I'm not suicidal. >But I'm finding everything so extraordinarily >difficult.I feel so bad for you. I think that the therapuetic relationship is like a mirror of ourselves in our relationships to other people. Its like a practice run where we can experiment and try things out and learn about ourselves. I also think of course the feelings are real and that what you are feeling is like the loss of a lover or a family member. Anyone can feel this way after a loss. I know I have. However in time it can heal. The thing is, even if the relationship is unresolved between the two people, in order to heal, you MUST resolve it within yourself and then let go. Pain and suffering are caused by desire for something that may not be attainable and the desire to hold onto that pain. Dont do it. Do not desire it and just let it go. Visualize yourself letting it go and seeing it go away over the horizen out of your life. I have had to do this in my life and I know its not easy but over time you can do it. If you just let it go you will be happier in the long run. Just see how things go over time.
Anyway as to the point of anything, I think we all grapple with these issues. The point of life and security and safety. I dont know if you are a spiritual person or not, but I have found that spirituality (of some kind, I prefer eastern) can help where drugs and therapy do not, and on the flipside, when spirituality fails, drugs and therapy can. I think they work together though. If you see no point to anything, try to think and understand that the point of life is simply to be alive, to feel and be as you are in life with everything that comes with it. Thats all. Its not about money or material things or human made ideas about what life should be. Life simply is. And on that level maybe it would to help to be able to find security and safety within yourself. That each of us has it within us to provide those things within our heart and spirit and not try to find it from some outside source. We cant be responsible or control what happens outside of ourselves, the only thing we can ever hope to control is ourselves. Understanding this and being able to do this is not easy; its hard work but the fruits of this labor are immense. I wish you the best of luck. :)
Cecilia:
>My therapy (7 years worth) ended 4 years ago and
>it still hurts constantly. I go back and forth,
>missing my ex-therapist so badly I could die,
>but at the same time furious at her for not
>being able to help me and for giving up wanting
>to, and even more furious at myself for not
>being helpable and for believing in the fantasy
>of help for so long.I think some of my advice above is applicable to you too here. Just let go of your prior therapist. All of it. All of this is very bad for people healthwise. It can weaken your immune system and shorten your life. I believe you are helpable. Everyone is. Otherwise you would not be here. I think if you have a fantasy about something, it is only after that fantasy is smashed and released, that the truth about something can be seen. Im not saying that the truth is you are not helpable. What Im saying is that whatever fantasy you claim to have held is getting in the way of allowing yourself to find some way or other methods of help. If one path does not work, seek others. And keep going. I think that the key to your help is within you, not out there. You just need to find the right path. I believe in you. I believe in all of you. :)
Anyway of course I dont know either of you and I would say my advice is worth about what you paid for it! ;-)
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