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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 13:42:55
In reply to Please be civil » Larry Hoover, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 2:16:30
> > It wasn't civil.
> >
> > I'm sorry I got a trivial detail wrong.
>
> Larry,
> I hear that you are hurting, and I read your post below apologizing for some of your statements. Still, I need to ask you to please be civil. Please do not post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. What may seem trivial to one may be extremely important to another.Indeed true. I was wrong about what I believed to be true. I'm sorry.
Lar
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 18:13:32
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 12:44:54
>> I do not feel sincerely apologized towards.
>
> Is that better?Thanks.
My primary and secondary reactions are that your statement does not reflect a feeling, but rather rearranges the words into a similar statement about the poster's actions and adds the "I feel". An "I" statement is about expressing and owning a feeling, not putting just "I" feel in front of a thought.
I've asked the others on the admin team for their feedback, however, as the odds of me not feeling quite objective enough in this case are higher than usual.
So feel free to try again or to wait for further feedback. I'll get back to you when I hear more if no one else does.
gg
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 19:07:21
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 0:25:25
Wow
That was interesting.I hope, though I'm sure people will believe what they want, that some realize that their are two sides to every story.
I'm not going to do it, but I was really tempted
here to post some of the e-mails written to me by Lar, repeat some of the conversations we've had. It's quite different from the babble face.
Others have seen it too, they know what of I speak.And that's truly all I'm going to say about this.
I feel dirty even saying what I have.
But I'm human, and part of me really wants to throw all dignity and pretense to the wind, and respond to that post on the same level it was written
The other part knows that it just doesn't matter anymore, I'm free of this.So I've settled for that comment.
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 19:35:05
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 19:07:21
Gabbi if I said what I wanted to I 'd get blocked. Lar is one of the nicest people I know. He puts othes needs before his. That's all I have to say too. Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 20:08:41
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » Larry Hoover, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 18:13:32
> >> I do not feel sincerely apologized towards.
> >
> > Is that better?
>
> Thanks.
>
> My primary and secondary reactions are that your statement does not reflect a feeling, but rather rearranges the words into a similar statement about the poster's actions and adds the "I feel". An "I" statement is about expressing and owning a feeling, not putting just "I" feel in front of a thought.It's not about actions at all. I do not feel sincerity. I'm stating the absence of the feeling. Sincerity is a feeling, in my books.
> I've asked the others on the admin team for their feedback, however, as the odds of me not feeling quite objective enough in this case are higher than usual.
I can understand that.
> So feel free to try again or to wait for further feedback. I'll get back to you when I hear more if no one else does.
>
> ggI'm working to meet the babble standards.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 20:21:15
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 19:07:21
> I'm not going to do it, but I was really tempted
> here to post some of the e-mails written to me by Lar, repeat some of the conversations we've had.That would certainly result in a block. Or, am I assuming once again, that I am under the babble umbrella of protection?
I tried for months to get personal conflict off this board. I was refused. I was met with DNPs, which were rescinded and restored at arbitrary points, depending on whether or not another comment was coming my way.
There is a limit to my tolerance of that behaviour.
> It's quite different from the babble face.
Hmmmm. I can swear, in email. That's one difference, isn't it? I don't need anybody else's help to realize I'm no saint. But, I'm trying my best, nonetheless.
> Others have seen it too, they know what of I speak.
But, that was before. I'm just cleaning house.
> And that's truly all I'm going to say about this.I like that thought.
> I feel dirty even saying what I have.
> But I'm human, and part of me really wants to throw all dignity and pretense to the wind, and respond to that post on the same level it was written
> The other part knows that it just doesn't matter anymore, I'm free of this.Just for the record, I do have boundaries. People would do well to consider that, in future. I was voiceless, barring triggers, for so very long. Expect me to speak, in real time, now that I've figured out how to do so. I will be nobody's punching bag. <--generic comment, not directed at any individual
> So I've settled for that comment.
<sigh>
Lar
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:39
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 20:08:41
I do not agree that sincerity is a feeling. I view it as a state. If it is a feeling, it's the others' feeling. The one being sincere or not. So, imo, there has not been a feeling expressed.
What I'm looking for, and this is my take on the way "I" statements work based on what I've read here and elsewhere, is how it feels to experience what you perceive as someone's insincerity.
I might feel hurt. Or angry. Or frustrated. Or resigned. Or any number of other internal feelings that come from within.
To me, saying you experience an absence of another's state does not reflect something that comes from within. To me, that comes from external, i.e. the other person.
Others may and likely do view this differently.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 21:16:24
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 20:21:15
I have to ask. If you two (Lar and Gabbi) were to be asked to evaluate how effective your own behaviors here are, what would you say? What are you gaining? What is it costing? Do you think its worth it?
From my end, it hurts to watch.
gg
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 21:26:14
In reply to Oh, for the love of God, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 21:16:24
I know GG
I knew I'd regret saying anything.
I knew it wasn't wise.
But it's hard to see "no strings attached"
when it appears there were, or those things would not be being brought up now.
And knowing what I know, there was too much anger to let it just *go*
My devotion can't be purchased.
People buy things for people in relationships, but eternal loyalty and devotion cannot be purchased.
It doesn't mean I have to put up with whatever is handed to me.And I'm doing it again.
In the past I was forced to be quiet about another man, "a good man" who bought me things when I was 6. This situation reminded me of that too much, and I didn't want to stay quiet any more.It's not the place though.
And that's not an excuse, but perhaps an explanation.I don't want to be called a b*tch anymore
Or be told to f*ck off anymore.
I don't deserve it.
I just wanted to be left alone.
I don't deserve it.
I don't deserve it
I don't
I don't
I don't.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 21:37:48
In reply to Re: Oh, for the love of God » gardenergirl, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 21:26:14
No one does, no matter what.
And we all get angry and have old feelings come up. I'm no saint. I do things that are not ultimately good for me and that sabotauge what I really want. So who am I to ask others to assess what I struggle with too?
Just someone who cares, and someone who seems to have some sort of old feelings about conflict. And I certainly can stop watching what I find painful. At least I ought to be able to. That's my responsibility.
So Gabbi and Larry, do what you want and/or need. I hope it gets you what you want or need without too much cost. I'll do my best to do this for myself, too.
gg
Posted by curtm on June 20, 2006, at 22:45:33
In reply to Oh, for the love of God, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 21:16:24
Don't forget the god of love.
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 23:13:23
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2006, at 20:21:15
>
> For three years, and more, she has had a phone because I paid for it. Out of my meager pension, not saving for my own needs, because she needed it more.No, it was a year and a half. I said it wasn't your responsibility, but you'd send me the minutes, and you said "You didn't like the idea of me having no phone"
And I said I would not let her down.
I would look after her until she got on her feet again. I have sent her packages of supplies, and nutrients, and herbs, and stuff. I sent her $500 last Christmas, just so she could have a different Christmas than the one that she was going to be having. Even though she was setting up a relationship with another man, thinking maybe I didn't notice?>>>I still have the receipt from that deposit.
What it said was "I hear you are getting married, I can't stand the thought of you two living in poverty, so please take this as a wedding present"
If you'd like me to send you the copy, to refresh your memory I will.We had broken up a year and a half before.
Without so much as the courtesy of an acknowledgement.<<<Umm.. I most certainly acknowledged it.
I have that e-mail too
But, I didn't put any strings on the use of that phone time. The thousands of dollars I spent on her phone time and other things she needed did not come with any strings attached. When she found out that she couldn't get some items from Victoria's Secret with the cash, I ordered them on my credit card. So that another man could see the result. And when those items didn't turn out to be what they were expected to be, for whatever reason, *I* refunded the money. I never saw a credit for the return. I didn't even look. There were no strings attached. She only wants you to think of me in another way than that.>>>>How can you say no strings attached bring all this up, and then claim to be upset about another man.
Those are some strings...
<<<I think you think I put a lot more thought into what you do than I actually do.
all I"ve asked is that you leave me alone.
I don't plot against youI have NOT tried to characterize you, well until this most recent post.
I've simply asked that you leave me alone.
Not post to me.
Take that up with her. I'm not interested.
>
> I might be slow to see what's going on. I don't even care about how long it takes me to learn something. Some relationships just turn out to be lessons.
>
> I just didn't realize I'd get two lessons in one day.
>
> It couldn't possibly matter whether Ryan was a generic Internet person, or a Babbler Internet person, could it? Really, does it? I'm sorry I got a trivial detail wrong. I try to remember the important stuff, like when a person's birthday is, so I don't post something that might hurt them, on their birthday, as she did, on April 15.
>***You knew we were getting married! You congratulated me. I have that e-mail too.
We weren't a couple anymore, and I didn't know it was your birthday. That was the day Ryan bought his ticket. Do you think we planned that for your birthday?
I didn't know it was your birthday when we were dating, though you probably don't remember thatLarry.. you and I were history.
Additionally, I know you'd planned to break up with me after our visit 2 years ago!If you deny that fact I *will* post the e-mails or babblemail them.
I don't mind getting blocked, I mind it when my behaviour is described incorrectly, and therefore makes me look duplicitous.
It's quite different from the babble face.
> Hmmmm. I can swear, in email. That's one difference, isn't it? I don't need anybody else's help to realize I'm no saint. But, I'm trying my best, nonetheless.
><<No, I was tired of getting e-mails every time I disagreed with you on the board. You asked me to e-mail you privately.
I refused to do that because you weren't seeing *me* you had made assumptions that were beyond me, and would say things you would not be able to on the board.
I finally ended up saying Please Leave Me ALONE
It was exhausting, and something I'd never had to put up with from anyone before.
I didn't want the negativity. I didn't want to be called a b*tch, or told to "f*ck off" anymore.
I wondered why you kept writing when you'd end up saying those things.
***You accused me of trying to mess with your head by not changing font colours!
When it got to that I just gave up.***With the negative feelings you have toward me, I don't know why leaving me alone, not talking about me is a burden.
...I didn't purposely hijack any thread.
The one time I made the mistake of telling Bobby that you were on a Break I got a letter from you telling me to correct it because you had "Left babble permanently" you also said not to speak for you anymore.
Jay also had to correct something he'd said about you, when he said you were humiliated.Why would I feel any differently about something being said about me?
If you'd not argued with me about my own situation, the subject would have died a lot more quickly.
I didn't argue with you when you corrected me. I went and corrected what I said.
So did JayWhen I made the same request to you, about not speaking about my personal life you called me a b*tch.
Buying me things doesn't mean I owe eternal agreement.
It seems that this is what this is about.
If it's about Ryan
Why the wedding gift?
Why the congratulation letter?Why can't you concentrate on your own good fortune and leave me be.
It's the best for both of us.
My first D.N.P to you was for both our benefits.
I still think it would be.
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 23:24:18
In reply to Re: have no » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 23:13:23
I sent her $500 last Christmas, just so she could have a different Christmas than the one that she was going to be having. Even though she was setting up a relationship with another man, thinking maybe I didn't notice?
<<<Taken from your e-mail of DECEMBER 22
I had written exactly what I wanted to say, and the bloody Paypal thing
timed out on me. I'm going to try and reproduce my message.When I heard Ryan was coming, I was going to send you money. I didn't want
you doing the poverty thing when he was going to be there.This money is late I guess, but Merry Christmas. ***And a wedding present too** (asterisks added)
Please spend it wisely. I'm not going to be sending any more.
Posted by wildcardII on June 20, 2006, at 23:30:49
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 19:07:21
to both of you...i wish that neither of you were hurting, angry, upset, etc.. life is just to short and sometimes, it's not worth it. i hope ya'll can agree to disagree or something like that........(huge sigh)
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 23:40:55
In reply to hugs, posted by wildcardII on June 20, 2006, at 23:30:49
Thank you Wildcard
I appreciate that.
I hope we can agree to disagree now too.
But I did need to get the facts straight on that one thing, especially.
I have never been duplicitous in a relationship.
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 21, 2006, at 3:37:52
In reply to Re: have no » Gabbi~G, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 19:35:05
> Gabbi if I said what I wanted to I 'd get blocked.
<< No, you wouldn't be, you haven't been blocked before, the most you'd get is a p.b.c.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2006, at 4:08:22
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » Larry Hoover, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:39
> I do not agree that sincerity is a feeling. I view it as a state. If it is a feeling, it's the others' feeling. The one being sincere or not. So, imo, there has not been a feeling expressed.
>
> What I'm looking for, and this is my take on the way "I" statements work based on what I've read here and elsewhere, is how it feels to experience what you perceive as someone's insincerity.
>
> To me, saying you experience an absence of another's state does not reflect something that comes from within. To me, that comes from external, i.e. the other person.
>
> gardenergirlI agree. Larry, please give this another try:
> I do not feel sincerely apologized towards.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 6:46:19
In reply to Re: Please rephrase » Larry Hoover, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 20:23:39
> I do not agree that sincerity is a feeling. I view it as a state. If it is a feeling, it's the others' feeling. The one being sincere or not. So, imo, there has not been a feeling expressed.
I may trust someone, or distrust them. It has nothing at all to do with their trustworthiness.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 6:57:45
In reply to Oh, for the love of God, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 21:16:24
> I have to ask. If you two (Lar and Gabbi) were to be asked to evaluate how effective your own behaviors here are, what would you say? What are you gaining? What is it costing? Do you think its worth it?
>
> From my end, it hurts to watch.
>
> ggWhy, oh why, didn't somebody say something while I was being silent.
I can't make anybody else do something. Or not.
I really really thought long and hard about posting anything about her. I really and truly believed that I said nothing more than she herself had said. It turned out I was wrong, and I apologized, quite sincerely.
I was trying to honour her experience, as it parallelled my own. I thought it did, at least. It was a respectful thing I sought to do. However, I did it imperfectly. I would never have said anything, if it wasn't on the boards from her own keyboard. I believed that I had that, but my memory failed me.
Buddy X posts he's going on vacation. Poster Y doesn't see that, but notices Buddy X has been quiet, for a while. An inquiry is made. Person Q, recalling Buddy X's post about going on vacation, shares that public information.
That's what I thought about, when I posted what I did. I truly regret any discomfort arising therefrom. I also truly regret that somebody stood in my sacred thread, decrying the sanctity of how she met her husband.
She fired off an email to me, telling me in detail how she felt. I replied. And I waited. I gave her 24 hours to consider what was going down.
If the stink of old dirty laundry is being put in your face for a long time, without any further provocation, then the laundry is already in the public domain. I tried to obtain privacy. I was denied. And then, suddenly privacy is the sole issue.
My bad.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 7:13:55
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Gabbi~G on June 20, 2006, at 23:24:18
> I sent her $500 last Christmas, just so she could have a different Christmas than the one that she was going to be having. Even though she was setting up a relationship with another man, thinking maybe I didn't notice?
>
> <<<Taken from your e-mail of DECEMBER 22
>
> I had written exactly what I wanted to say, and the bloody Paypal thing
> timed out on me. I'm going to try and reproduce my message.
>
> When I heard Ryan was coming, I was going to send you money. I didn't want
> you doing the poverty thing when he was going to be there.
>
> This money is late I guess, but Merry Christmas. ***And a wedding present too** (asterisks added)
> Please spend it wisely. I'm not going to be sending any more.You're condensing things. I knew, by last Christmas, yes. But, you did not tell me that you re-initiated that relationship, during a period when you were continually putting out feelers to me about my feelings for you.
I have always wanted the best for you. And I knew that wasn't me. But I had promised you, and I keep my word. It seems the only sort of feeling that you show the board about me is a stinky feeling.
I did not find out that you were seeking intimacy with another person at a time when it mattered to me. Believe me, when I figured that out, I had the clarity I needed.
Later on, I sorted it out. Before Christmas, yes. But not when we should have talked about it.
Since I got my head on straight, I have a clarity that I never had before. I'm sorry that I can be so confusing. Well, could once be so confusing.
It's complicated. I do not feel like I'm being permitted to put it in my past. I'm wanting that.
When I swear at you, it's always for the same thing you say to me. I ask you not to say it again, and guess what?
I feel like I've been under sniper attack, for a while now. But you set it up so I was just 'sposed to be a silent sandbag. That DNP thing.
Sorry. No more sandbag over here.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 7:19:00
In reply to Re: Please rephrase that » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2006, at 4:08:22
> > To me, saying you experience an absence of another's state does not reflect something that comes from within. To me, that comes from external, i.e. the other person.
> >
> > gardenergirl
>
> I agree. Larry, please give this another try:
>
> > I do not feel sincerely apologized towards.
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobI feel incredulous.
I'm really trying here. That is my feeling.
Lar
Posted by Gabbi~G on June 21, 2006, at 8:34:36
In reply to Re: have no » Gabbi~G, posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 7:13:55
>> You're condensing things. I knew, by last Christmas, yes. But, you did not tell me that you re-initiated that relationship, during a period when you were continually putting out feelers to me about my feelings for you.
>
You knew I was friends with Ryan, had been for years, and we'd never had even a mild flirtation during that time.
I didn't know his feelings about me until the last week in October.
There's not a lot of time between November and Christmas, yet you knew by Christmas.
I hardly think that's holding out on you.
Especially as we were no longer a couple.Now, I suppose you are entitled to the right of response.
After that
Please DO NOT POST TO ME
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 10:41:08
In reply to Re: have no, posted by Gabbi~G on June 21, 2006, at 8:34:36
> Now, I suppose you are entitled to the right of response.
Of course I am. How could you ever believe otherwise?
> There's not a lot of time between November and Christmas, yet you knew by Christmas.
Whatever.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 10:44:16
In reply to Re: have no » Gabbi~G, posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 10:41:08
> Whatever.
Incredibly rude. Sorry.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2006, at 11:21:40
In reply to Re: have no » Gabbi~G, posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2006, at 7:13:55
> you set it up so I was just 'sposed to be a silent sandbag.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused. I'm really sorry about this, but I'm going to block you from posting for 10 weeks.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person. And I don't want anything bad to happen to you. In a crisis, please also get help in person. You may also wish to check out a listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: I'm trying out a new system:
previous block: 6 weeks
period of time since previous block: 13 weeks
uncivil toward a particular individual or group: yes
particularly uncivil: no
different type of incivility: no
clearly didn't understand PBC and made effort to reply: no
provoked: yes
uncivil in multiple posts at same time: no
already archived: noIf we take 13 weeks, divide by 10, and round down, that's a reduction of 1 week. If we apply that to your previous block, that's 6 - 1 = 5 weeks. And if we double that, that's 10 weeks.
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