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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 57. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
.....when you develop feelings for someone you've never met, except in an online context?
Like, if I was interested in somebody in real life, I'd ask for a "coffee date" or something like, and sit down and get to the getting to know thing.
But, you have this internet reality, where you can be intimately involved with someone you haven't the slightest clue what they are really like. I mean, you have the intimacy, and assuming it's all quite truthful and accurate, but you still don't know their vibe. You still don't have any sense of body language, or style, or all of that. If there's that chemistry. Or do you?
Even if you go to voice (i.e. start talking on the phone), you still only have the voice that the telephone is capable of sending. It's perhaps a good representation, or perhaps slightly less good. (I'm using this as an example, merely because I'm told I sound different live, than I do on the phone. A different tonal quality entirely.) But it can never be the same as the real voice. That requires that one is sitting adjacent to the real vocalizer, ya know?
And, because you can't do this coffee date thing, you can get way way along some tangential tracks, without the benefit and support and completeness of knowing how the rest of that person really is.
And, when it hits me, that I'm feeling feelings for someone online, it hits me that we human beings have not evolved as quickly as has our technology. It puts "normal" dating/courting processes on their heads.
It quite messes with me, really, because I am a passionate fellow. And it's out of sequence. It's out of context. Isn't it? I mean, to feel for someone you haven't met?
Or, is it more like falling in love with a pen pal? Which is a really romantic element of stories I've read from e.g. World Wars I and II, by the way. I could read those stories for hours. Of people who got together and got married following the war, knowing already that they were meant for each other. Not needing the other means of communications. Not needing them at all. The knowing didn't need the meeting part.
Thoughts?
Lar
Posted by crazy teresa on May 29, 2006, at 13:23:57
In reply to Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
But how well do you really know someone until you live with them, no matter how long you dated? And then, only if they'll let you in far enough to see their real self?
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 16:27:59
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird... » Larry Hoover, posted by crazy teresa on May 29, 2006, at 13:23:57
> But how well do you really know someone until you live with them, no matter how long you dated? And then, only if they'll let you in far enough to see their real self?
I think that's true of any relationship, at any stage.
What they let you see, or fabricate for you to see......that's always the threshold condition.
I was and am amazed that I have feelings by Internet. Even though I have some experience with it, it still makes me feel like it's a distortion of the normal relationship process.
Not like there's one way that's supposed to go, or anything.
I'm not even sure why I am amazed by it, which why I started to talk about it.
Lar
Posted by ClearSkies on May 29, 2006, at 18:18:38
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird... » crazy teresa, posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 16:27:59
> I was and am amazed that I have feelings by Internet. Even though I have some experience with it, it still makes me feel like it's a distortion of the normal relationship process.
>It doesn't feel like a distortion to me - it just feels public. Like, we're having conversations here at babble that others are reading and commenting on, and entering in to. It's talking without the benefit of the F2F messages.
I had pen pals from all over the place when I was a kid. When I moved from Montreal to Toronto (at a tender age), my entire class wrote me individual letters that my old teacher sent on to me. I can still picture each writer and their personality when I look at the letters today.
When I used to stutter, being able to write was like having wings. Now I use the words to add dimension to myself here; they flesh me out.
ClearSkies
Posted by antigua on May 29, 2006, at 18:28:52
In reply to Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
I think it's romantic.
antigua
Posted by susan47 on May 29, 2006, at 20:31:42
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by antigua on May 29, 2006, at 18:28:52
I think it's romantic too, but in the sense that Larry doesn't know the person in person ... it's their mind he's attracted to, which is kind of nice, because there's nothing physical to distort things .. but too what's romantic is that it's so deeply, positively felt and maybe doing nice things for Lar' .. keep it up so to speak, oh you know what I mean.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 22:48:19
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by antigua on May 29, 2006, at 18:28:52
> I think it's romantic.
> antiguaSo does she.
But I'm still not sure I can put my finger on it.
What eludes me.
What I worry about?
Maybe it's in that realm.
But actually, it's if anything less fearful/worriful, I suppose.
Reality testing?
I need to sleep on it. Thanks for the suggestions.
Lar
Posted by madeline on May 30, 2006, at 6:22:58
In reply to Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
Well, on the surface it seems a little weird to begin to have feelings for someone online, but dig a little deeper and, to me, it's not that weird at all.
It seems to me that when we communicate online it is much easier to get straight to the essence of a person. People seem to be much more open to expressing emotion, desires, failures, loves and hopes. This intimacy, and subsequent validation from the online partner is really the heart of any relationship - even those IRL.
For me, it can take years to reveal that much of myself in the wild.
When you think about it, the coffee date is very superficial. It's a glance at the appearance of a person really, which matters so very very little (or at least should).
I say, don't be hesitant here, love as if she were in the room, because in reality, she is.
I wish you all the best here
Maddie
Posted by verne on May 30, 2006, at 7:08:59
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird... » Larry Hoover, posted by madeline on May 30, 2006, at 6:22:58
I like your perspective, especially the line: "For me, it can take years to reveal that much of myself in the wild".
I still find relating online to be unreal and empty. Unless you really know the person, email coorespondence, boards, and chat are a constant strain of explaining and defining what you're saying.
At least in real life, after I've revealed too much or said something crazy, they *know* my heart is in the right place.
verne
Posted by llrrrpp on May 30, 2006, at 8:19:35
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird... » madeline, posted by verne on May 30, 2006, at 7:08:59
When I read someone's words online, I feel a certain empathy/sympathy, in the sense that the emotions that they write about are experienced by me, at some level. I think that this is very powerful, and maybe doesn't occur often in real life. When people talk to us face to face, are we really listening? Do we really have the sole goal to sit down and UNDERSTAND where someone is coming from (unless you're a therapist in real life). Often when we have face-to-face conversations, we are more concerned with making ourselves understood, and how we are coming across. then we are momentarily distracted from what our partner is saying, and the bond of empathy/sympathy is broken. Tiny, little breaks, but these are important. I think this is why the written word seem more intimate.
We also experience a lot of dissonance in real life, between what people are revealing to us, and what we really know about them. If someone were to tell me something deep and profound, but I know that he has very poor judgment, and has a very messed up life, I would discount his wisdom. Online, the words are pure, because we don't have to live with their consequences. This also leads to little breaks in the empathy/sympathy. For instance, when my partner says something kind to me, I am able to think of a counterexample when he said/did something unkind. This is not so easy with online relationships.
Having said that, I think that real-life chemistry is very important. Physical attraction is not something that is easily faked, although it can be practiced. But online, you don't have the luxury of learning to appreciate the chemistry you have with another person. There is something essential in the relationship that the body experiences, and the body tells you when the feelings are real. I don't think this should be taken lightly.
Posted by Tamar on May 30, 2006, at 10:35:37
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird... » madeline, posted by verne on May 30, 2006, at 7:08:59
> At least in real life, after I've revealed too much or said something crazy, they *know* my heart is in the right place.Even though I read your words online, I still know your heart is in the right place.
Posted by Tamar on May 30, 2006, at 10:48:18
In reply to Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
> .....when you develop feelings for someone you've never met, except in an online context?
It doesn’t seem weird to me. It seems very easy for me to feel love for people I don’t know everything about. In fact, I reckon love stays alive most easily when people continue to get to know each other over many years. There’s always some of the excitement of discovery. Or maybe it’s just me…
> But, you have this internet reality, where you can be intimately involved with someone you haven't the slightest clue what they are really like. I mean, you have the intimacy, and assuming it's all quite truthful and accurate, but you still don't know their vibe. You still don't have any sense of body language, or style, or all of that. If there's that chemistry. Or do you?
I reckon you’re right about body language and style and so on. But I suppose you can get some of that with a web cam or photos. The thing that’s impossible to know without meeting is whether you’re going to be attracted to the way they smell. And I think that can be very important, though it’s usually not a conscious thing.
> It quite messes with me, really, because I am a passionate fellow. And it's out of sequence. It's out of context. Isn't it? I mean, to feel for someone you haven't met?
I think it makes sense to have those feelings. You have encountered her as a person, even if you haven’t been in the same room. She’s still real; she’s just distant.
I’m with Antigua: I think it’s romantic.
Posted by curtm on May 30, 2006, at 21:41:06
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird... » Larry Hoover, posted by Tamar on May 30, 2006, at 10:48:18
Abstinence is the only safer birth control than an online relationship.
Posted by llrrrpp on May 30, 2006, at 21:50:51
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by curtm on May 30, 2006, at 21:41:06
I met the man I married in a tiny little insignificant summer fling of only a few days' duration. We continued our courtship over several months when I lived in Asia and Europe, mostly through e-mail. It's how I got to know him. It's how I got to know myself. This is your brain. This is your brain on love.... Really. It felt a lot safer. And I knew he was the one for me, even though I had only spent seven days as his face to face g/f. We've been together since '99. The written word can be powerfully intimate. But it takes a lot of trust in the other, and trust in yourself, to keep it real, and not to create a fantasy.
Posted by curtm on May 30, 2006, at 21:56:20
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by curtm on May 30, 2006, at 21:41:06
>> Abstinence is the only safer birth control than an online relationship.
I really like this thread A LOT. Im just at a loss for good commentary tonight. I'll shut up now. :)
Posted by crazy teresa on May 30, 2006, at 22:01:19
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by llrrrpp on May 30, 2006, at 21:50:51
Good point!
The only reason I agreed to the first date with my husband is that I knew he was leaving the state! Talk about no pressure dating... ;~}
We then corresponded through the mail nearly every day (no email back then!) and occasional phone calls for 1 1/2 years while he finished his military obligations. He sent me a plane ticket to visit him once. Other visits were only when he could get a 3 day weekend, about 4 times a year.
Posted by crazy teresa on May 30, 2006, at 22:03:03
In reply to That was dumb, I'm sorry » curtm, posted by curtm on May 30, 2006, at 21:56:20
Posted by Declan on May 31, 2006, at 2:05:26
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird... » madeline, posted by verne on May 30, 2006, at 7:08:59
There is this sense of a drain, isn't there? We put so much thought and feeling into our posts, and then? You know, like Ed said on the main board.
I volunteered recently for the local radio station. But for maybe 6 months the only contact with people I had was on PB, apart from where I live.
Often I'm just trying to keep myself amused; and then I usually feel guilty.
Declan
Posted by ron1953 on May 31, 2006, at 5:21:26
In reply to Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
I "met" a Babbler in Open 10/05. First Open, then IM, then phone calls (wonderful, loooooong phone calls), then a cross-country visit. Well, to make a long shory stort (deliberate), we've been married over a year! As far as we know, the only Babblers to marry. A dubious distinction, perhaps.
So, is it wierd? Yeah, I guess. But no weirder than meeting any other way.
Ron
Posted by llrrrpp on May 31, 2006, at 7:51:00
In reply to So weird that we got married! » Larry Hoover, posted by ron1953 on May 31, 2006, at 5:21:26
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 8:25:21
In reply to So weird that we got married! » Larry Hoover, posted by ron1953 on May 31, 2006, at 5:21:26
> I "met" a Babbler in Open 10/05. First Open, then IM, then phone calls (wonderful, loooooong phone calls), then a cross-country visit. Well, to make a long shory stort (deliberate), we've been married over a year! As far as we know, the only Babblers to marry. A dubious distinction, perhaps.
A glorious distinction! I congratulate you, again.
Soon, Gabbii will be joining your ranks, with a mystery-Babbler guy. It's on Social. Does she get another 'i' then? Gabbiii?
> So, is it wierd? Yeah, I guess. But no weirder than meeting any other way.
>
> RonI'm starting to recognize that.
Ya. No weirder than any other way. Different, but only because it's different.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 9:29:19
In reply to Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
The coffee date thing was perhaps misunderstood. I realize now, what I meant. The chakra/aura thing. It doesn't carry, over the phone. No digital chakra content. No aura roaming charges. The phone is air vibration. Don't get me wrong, it's there, the chakra/aura stuff. But it's not the same as face to face.
And two posters developed long-standing relationships with a distant someone, but the key difference is: they met first, even if only for a short time. They met first, then did the distance thing.
Random quotations, just lifted hither and yon:
"I think it's romantic."
Yes, it definitely is that.
"what's romantic is that it's so deeply, positively felt and maybe doing nice things for Lar' "
Just watch it, missy. I wouldn't be surprised she's reading this thread, and I don't want her getting all swollen-headed and all that. Let's just say that I've never felt better in my life, and leave it unattributed, okay?
"At least in real life, after I've revealed too much or said something crazy, they *know* my heart is in the right place. "
This deserves, if nothing else, some validation. The same thing goes here, dude. But there is a way to know, in real life, that reconfirms the other way of knowing that is embedded in our text communications. *This* version *is* a faith-based version. And I do have faith. In you. In you, verne.
"There is something essential in the relationship that the body experiences, and the body tells you when the feelings are real."
Precisely so. Self-validation. That is what I was trying to put my finger on.
"The thing that’s impossible to know without meeting is whether you’re going to be attracted to the way they smell."
Oh, so very true. Or taste. Or feel. That's also very important to me. I have five senses. I do not even yet have vision at play. I have verbal descriptors, but no picture, yet. Ya know?
But there's another concept at issue. It is such a useful concept, that it comes down to us through the ages. Common sense. It traces directly back to the Parthenon and the Senate of the city-state we now call Athens. I believe it arose in the dialectic between Plato and his student, Aristotle. But common sense has a meaning that is lost to us, today. It isn't used in the way it was first postulated.
We have five senses. Five primary physical ways to sense the environment. Sight, sound, touch, taste, smell. No one has ever convincingly argued to increase that number.
But, a new sense *was* added, called the common sense. It is the sum and synthesis and symbiosis of all five. A supernumerary sense, which is informed by each, yet greater in some way than the contributors themselves.
I cannot yet use my common sense.
I think I have visions of aeroplanes. Strange craft, in the sky. I have always marvelled at them. Strange tubes, crammed full of people. And while you're in the tube, the stage hands change all the scenery. It's really quite dramatic, the effect they can get, with these tubes.
I really appreciate what was going on in this thread. Thank you, all.
Lar
Posted by curtm on May 31, 2006, at 10:08:00
In reply to Re: So weird that we got married! » ron1953, posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2006, at 8:25:21
I am going to create a new online profile. She will be the girl of my dreams. I will then begin a relationship with her. It will be the greatest love (virtual) ever. We will talk to each other everyday. She will treat me like a king and she will be my queen. We will dream day and night of each other. She will be my life and I will be hers.
I don't think it would work out if I arranged to meet her in person, though.
Love,
Curt
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 12:08:02
In reply to Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on May 29, 2006, at 8:45:39
I am very grateful for the responses to this thread.
All will be well.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 18, 2006, at 12:21:06
In reply to Re: Don't y'all think it's weird..., posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2006, at 12:08:02
I am really grateful that I received the thoughtful and thought provoking responses that I did receive, a few weeks ago. They allowed me to "normalize" what I was experiencing, to see it from a comfortable place. Yes, it is a very romantic thing I'm experiencing. Very romantic, indeed.
I've been busy, the last few days. Hell, the last few weeks. I had to get a car that could handle a road trip; my old one was not up for that. I had to organize the logistics; could you believe it was so hard to even find an affordable room in her area? A vacancy itself?
And I drove all day. A little over 600 miles. Almost precisely 1000 km. To meet her, for the very first time. I honestly did not even know what she looked like. Just words, is all I had. A few simple descriptors. We've been corresponding for years, but we only started really communicating over the last few months.
I was going on that roadtrip to ask her one of the most important questions there is. And I am back home, now, a very happy man. She said she'd have me, as her partner. The rest is just details, now.
If I've been weird, the last little while, it's because I've never felt like this before. I am in awe of it. I've just been exuberant....I've been exuberating all over the dang place.... haven't I been doing that? Exuberating, all over the place.
Now you know why.
All will be well.
Lar
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