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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 12:50:17
It was a great way to avoid housecleaning and studying...
:-D
And ask away -- I really am getting things done, just need those breaks now and again, or I get too wound up...
Posted by orchid on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 7:53:59
Just wanted to say, I appreciate your efforts at trying to help and understand your wife. My husband's efforts to understand me really helps me.
I don't know anything about passive-aggression, but asking her to go a T might be a good place to start.
Sounds like she is defensive and you trying to get through the defense may not work. A neutral third party might be better at getting to her.
When I was defensive, I didn't listen to anything my husband said. But I listened to the same things when told by my T :-)
I think that is probably best now for you - back off and let a T do the handling for you if possible.
Posted by orchid on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:51:19
hmm.. i guess I should take that back since your wife refuses to go to a T. That is a tough one then.
Honestly, I wouldn't know what would work. Maybe if you asked her to go to therapy with you, she might relent? Like go for marital therapy where you are also part of the process, instead of just asking her to go?
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to No problem... » bassman, posted by Racer on April 21, 2006, at 13:03:25
Just re-read your post-got even more out of it than the first time. You've got a great writing style; it's very entertaining and emotionally direct. O.K., here's a couple situations:
Wife comes home every day from work, fuming mad about the same things and rants about them-the first thing out of her mouth. The first question I have is, "why would anyone want to subject someone else to that?"-I'm not one who rants-more the short phrases or I'm just quiet, so I don't get the ranting. But more important-what can I do that would be useful and what should I avoid?
Do you have any advice on how to process the negativity so that I don't feel so stressed by it?
It seems to me that the procrastinating is sort of of a form of control, at least that's the way it feels-maybe?
What can be done to have her express whatever it is that is really bothering her (I just had the thought that maybe exactly what she is ranting about is IT-look no farther)-she is not a "what's bothering you, honey" person-she doesn't want to come into contact with that. I really appreciate your help-sorry my post is all over the map...
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:51:19
She doesn't believe she has a problem, so why would she go to a therapist? Case closed...also, she has a resentment about therapists-a very long, painful story. But I do agree with you 100% (which counts for nothing, in this case, I think :>}).
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » orchid, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:56:43
Nice try. :>} Nothing wrong, no therapy. She's really very afraid of her feelings...
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 12:50:17
We all know that accepting that you have some behaviors that need to be addressed is a difficult one. She could be scared to go there. I was. The more my wife mentioned it, the less I wanted to listen. I had to realize it for myself. It took a heavy bout of depression (caused by my discontent that was caused by me persistent negativity...) She may end up going down that road too if it is that bad. But lighten up a little bit. Give her some space perhaps. If she is aggressive toward you still, say that you don't like to be treated that way. Want you both to be happy.
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
Hmmmm!
Rule #1) Don't take work home with you.
Rule #2) Don't take home to work with you.
Posted by wishingstar on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:01:59
Good question! I can be quite the procrastinator myself, so I really dont know what to do about that. I wish I did. :) I'm also not married and dont live with anyone, so it's hard for me to give advice on dealing with a person you see day in and day out.
The only thing that comes to mind for me is telling her how you feel, which I'd guess you've done.. but possibly doing it in a way that almost makes it sound like it's your problem and you need HER help. Keep reading! I am by NO means saying this is your fault.. but sometimes the way we word things to people makes all the difference in THEIR behavior. But what if you said something like.. "you come home every day upset about the same things, and it makes me feel so bad.. It's really hard for me to hear.. but I just dont know what I can do for you" in hopes that she'll then tell you what she really needs from you, or at least see that shes really putting a lot on you. I obviously dont know your wife so it may not work.. but things like that have worked for me in the past.
Often when people are complaining I dont think they really want to be shown alternative ways of doing things though.. unless they are really asking for them. Complaining it more of a "poor me" activity in a sense.. and it sounds like that's really true with her, since she gets mad when you try to help. Maybe even tag something on to what I wrote above about how you feel so helpless (fill in your own word of course) because you dont know what to do.. etc etc.
I really hope none of this came across as me blaming you or anything like that. I'm not trying to at all.. it's just a tricky twist of words, I guess. But I dont think of it as being manipulative.. just submitting to what the person needs in order to respond well, I guess. Oh well, I'm rambling. Good luck!
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by wishingstar on April 21, 2006, at 15:13:11
Oh no-please, blame me and tell me it's all my fault! I blame myself for everything, anyway, so that's no problem at all. :>} Thanks for the suggestions, morningstar! I do like the approach...and it is very valid-i.e., I am suffering and do need her help, depending on your reference frame. But when it comes to this topic, I feel like a bastard at a family picnic, if you know what I mean...
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 15:43:34
>Oh no-please, blame me and tell me it's all my fault!
Instead of blaming myself and accepting fault, I usually blame something or someone else. I know how you feel about the picnic. I should try being nice more often.
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
You don't need to apologize! That's part of what this place is about -- acceptance. Just that simple. I accept you, without any qualifiers.
> Just re-read your post-got even more out of it than the first time. You've got a great writing style; it's very entertaining and emotionally direct.
Thank you. It feels very good to hear that.
>
> Wife comes home every day from work, fuming mad about the same things and rants about them-the first thing out of her mouth. The first question I have is, "why would anyone want to subject someone else to that?"-I'm not one who rants-more the short phrases or I'm just quiet, so I don't get the ranting. But more important-what can I do that would be useful and what should I avoid?
>
Hm... This sounds a lot like my mother, who used to come home from work in the evening and just start ranting about -- well, really about anything and everything. A cousin of hers lived with her for a while, and said he would hear those footsteps that said it was one of Those Nights, and start dialing the telephone number for the public bus service so she could complain to them! (Cross my heart, that's what he said, and I think I believe he did just that.) That's one option...But more helpful for you, I think are the following two suggestions:
1. Tell her that it bothers you when she comes home and starts off with the negativity about her day; and ask her for what you want instead: I'd suggest asking for a hello, a hug, a kiss, some moment that the two of you can reconnect, before she goes into her pressure release.
2. I'm thinking that is a pressure release for her, and not much more. She sounds as though she gets over-stressed by her job, for whatever reason (my guess: if she refuses to examine her emotions and behaviors at home, the same is true at work), and the Nightly Negativity are her way of clearing her emotional buffers. She's just blowing off steam. It might be just as well to take it that way, and realize you don't actually have to listen to the content, only to validate her distress. Unless she's asking for help finding a solution, you don't have to offer any suggestions. Just wait for her to finish, say something like, "You sound so stressed by your day; I wish there was something I could do to help [if that's true]; and I'm glad you're home now [again, only if that's true]"
3. I thought of a third: ASK her what she's looking for when she does this. "Honey, you come home and blow off steam about your day so often, how would you like me to react? Are you just looking for sympathy? Would you like help trying to find a solution for the problems you complain about? Please let me know how I can help you when you do this, because I feel uncomfortable not knowing what to do for you, and it's hard for me to deal with it."
>
> Do you have any advice on how to process the negativity so that I don't feel so stressed by it?
>
Yeah -- but it's hard. Do your best to ignore it. You can try offering her a glass of wine when she comes home, or just taking her coat to hang up and giving her a kiss. You could try setting boundaries, like letting her have three sentences of her rant and then saying, "Stop! I know you may have more to say, but I can't listen anymore tonight." and change the subject to something neutral.Or, you could try turning it into a game where you don't have to take in the content: count how many times she repeats a complaint; count how many times she uses one of those phrases that she uses too often (my husband has one that offends the grammarian in my soul); try to anticipate the next complain topic; have another conversation with her in your head, and see if you can use your lines in that one out loud without her noticing. Just -- play. If you can do that, it really will diminish the power of the negativity.
>
> It seems to me that the procrastinating is sort of of a form of control, at least that's the way it feels-maybe?
>
Depends -- for me, most of my procrastinating is based on fear. I feel completely out of control when I am procrastinating. And I feel ashamed of myself, guilty, all sorts of horrible things. If she feels any of those, well, she has my sympathy and empathy.On the other hand, my husband tends to put off things that I've asked him to do, and he gets lost into his own obsessions instead of doing things he needs to do. Generally, he does get work done in time to meet deadlines for his employer, but even there he's a bit -- well, for instance, one of his old bosses told him he had to be at work by a certain time. That time was within the time he usually showed up at work, so it wasn't as though this was a huge imposition -- but after that, he wouldn't leave home before that time. He'd just mosey around, until he was going to be late. THAT is controlling behavior, and passive aggression.
My T and I are talking now about how to deal with this. It comes up a lot about our household chores, and I get overwhelmed and then give up. And when I say that I give up, it carries over to most of my life. My husband's failure to do something as trivial as vacuuming, when he's promised to do it, can send me into a very dark place, emotionally. I just curl up inside.
So, what has she suggested? She's suggested a couple of things: hiring a cleaning lady; tell him that it would help me if he would do [x], and ask him if he will -- and then trust him to follow through, none of the subtle, "Yeah, you say you will, but I will only believe it when I see it" attitudes; and just stop expecting that he will do anything at all, and make other arrangements.
That doesn't feel all that optimistic, does it? In my case, it's not just that my husband won't do anything to help clean up -- he will mess up something I've just spent the entire afternoon cleaning. To me, it's drattedly hard to believe that's unconscious, you know?
I think, really, that asking if she will do something, and lowering your expectations are probably the best options. "Honey, I have to clean up the backyard this weekend -- is there any part of it that you'd be willing to help with?" Or just saying to yourself, "Asking her for help with this is likely to lead to bad feelings on both sides -- is there an alternative such as hiring someone or calling a friend?"
>
> What can be done to have her express whatever it is that is really bothering her (I just had the thought that maybe exactly what she is ranting about is IT-look no farther)-she is not a "what's bothering you, honey" person-she doesn't want to come into contact with that. I really appreciate your help-sorry my post is all over the map...Honestly? Whether or not she expresses anything that's bothering her underneath what she rants about is entirely up to her. That's something you have no control over, and I think your best bet is to disengage yourself from trying to fix that. It might be helpful for both of you for you to take whatever she says as being the whole story.
I have another thought, which I will post in a minute, but this is too long already, and I don't want it to get lost...
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
This is something else to think about: you can only control your own behavior, right? But what happens within relationships is that you form a sort of interaction-dance. If she comes home and rants, you may give her the same response every time, which brings out the same response from her, etc.
There's nothing you can do to change her behavior.
But if you change your behavior -- maybe by taking her rants as being about the whole problem, maybe by letting her procrastinate as much as she chooses to, maybe just by greeting her with a smile every evening -- it's going to change that dynamic between you. It may not solve anything, but at least it has a chance of making your evenings more pleasant for both of you.
Good luck.
(Oh, and I got my hubby into therapy through marriage counseling, and through pointing out to him that if I really was his major source of worry, talking to ME about it wasn't so productive for him. I told him I couldn't be the one he brought his worries about me to, because I felt so guilty and miserable already -- and suggested he get a therapist so that he could complain about me to someone...)
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to That last thought... » bassman, posted by Racer on April 21, 2006, at 17:01:21
Wow, I really appreciate it! I LOVED the make up stories in your head idea! That will keep me smiling-also the anticipate what's next idea. I used to go to an eye doc that was excellent, but had the most unpleasant personality in upstate NY. I decided that I would continue to go to him and instead of being intimidated by his comments, just listen and see if he could outdo his last set of insensitive remarks. I couldn't lose: either he was reasonable or I hit the jackpot and he said something really crass that made me laugh inside!
Thank you again, Racer, for taking so much time with me. I feel a lot better about the situation-I think you're right about much of it being venting and I just need to work on my part-not being stressed and just validating her experience.
Posted by Daisym on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:28
In reply to Thanks so much, Racer, others that offered help!, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 17:33:13
I'm going to offer a slightly different perspective, if I may...
I've read this whole thread and I could have written almost everything you did, except I'm the wife. Long story short -- I left my husband this week. After almost 23 years of marriage -- 25 years together -- I couldn't take it anymore.
His negativity has stolen all of my happiness, and I lived in a constant state of dread at home. I'd hear him drive in at dinnertime and my stomach would clench. I endured at least an hour of ranting each evening, about work, about his health, about the traffic, about everything and anything it felt like. He has gradually lost most of his friends over the years, our kids avoid him mostly...well, I could go on but you get the picture.
The kicker? He was SHOCKED when I said I was moving out. SHOCKED. He said he had no idea I was so unhappy, no idea the his behavior was effecting me so badly. *sigh*
So...two pieces of advice. Try not to do back flips to avoid making her upset. You'll make yourself crazy. Just do what you know you need or want to do in a respectful way so that you maintain control of yourself and your life. The other thing is to set limits. Be honest and frank about how much YOU can take. Not what she can do -- what you are willing to listen to or put up with. Say something like, "Honey, I know you need to vent afterwork but too much of it upsets me a great deal. So,I'll listen for a little while and then I'm going to excuse myself and go read(or watch TV,etc.) If there is something really important to you, or something that really bugs you when it isn't done, do those things yourself. But don't do everything. Let go of the other things. I think sometimes we end up picking up so much slack, in order to avoid more bickering, that the other person is freed from all responsibility, and we get resentful. On the other hand, you can't MAKE a grownup do what they don't want to do. So draw your line in the sand, verbalize your line and hold it.
Good luck. I hope you work this out. Living under a black cloud is superhard.
Posted by annierose on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:28
In reply to Re: Thanks so much, Racer, others that offered help! » bassman, posted by Daisym on April 23, 2006, at 1:56:22
I'm pulling for you, thinking of you and sending you tons of support. It's scary. But you can do this, I just know you can.
Annie
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:28
In reply to Re: Thanks so much, Racer, others that offered help! » bassman, posted by Daisym on April 23, 2006, at 1:56:22
Thanks, Daisym for reading the whole thing and commenting...and I could get into your situation (when you said he complained about traffic, I said "ouch"-same thing here). Pretty much the same thing with friends and kids here...and I do see myself "taking up the slack"-but damn, I did the same thing in my first marriage for 16 years. Maybe I'm just a sucker and I have the problem. I told my son when he went to college, "there are 7,000 women on this campus, and probably if you got together with 6,800 of them, you could live a happy life. But you'll find one of the 200 who will make you miserable and hold on for dear life!" Life is funny.
Thanks again, Daisym. Great advice.
bassman
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to (((Daisy))) » Daisym, posted by annierose on April 23, 2006, at 6:22:03
Thanks for the support...I really appreciate it. I think part of the problem is that I don't need anyone to help me be depressed.:>) I'm really affected by those around me in terms of mood; also I feel threatened by negativity. I'm "too sensitive".:>}
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to Re: (((Daisy))), posted by bassman on April 23, 2006, at 7:12:29
> I'm "too sensitive".:>}
Sorry, one of my trigger points... {deep breath}
You probably already know this, but -- you're as sensitive as you are sensitive. Who is it who's set this standard of what is "too sensitive?" And how dare he or she set that standard and expect anyone to pay any attention?
That's one of my "do as I say, not as I do" soapboxes, though. I suppress my emotions a lot, because my first reaction to nearly any strong emotion is fear taht I'm being "too sensitive." It's not a fun way to live, and I hope you don't live here, too. (Which isn't because I don't like you, of course...)
Anyway, I hope you don't like in TooSensitiveVille, too, but it sounds as though you know just about how valid that phrase is anyway.
And I think Daisy's offered some good advice, too, about stating limits and holding on to them. Even if it means you have to follow her example, which I hope you don't. (I figure you wouldn't be posting this thread if you didn't have reasons for wanting to stay. Those reasons are likely valid, too.)
Hope this post doesn't seem to weird. I just wanted to scold about Too Sensitive. If I pounce on it when others say it, maybe I'll learn to do itfor myself, too...
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to Re: Thanks so much, Racer, others that offered help! » bassman, posted by Daisym on April 23, 2006, at 1:56:22
I'm so sorry that things reached that point for you, but I'm also very glad that you had the strength to do this. From what you've said about the situation, I think it was probably a good choice.
You do know, don't you, that you can call any time?
xoxo
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to OMG! How are *you* doing? » Daisym, posted by Racer on April 23, 2006, at 10:45:17
No, I didn't know I could call. But the "too sensitive" comment-it was fun seeing your reaction. Until about 8 years ago, I bought that line completely (outside the home, mostly). One day at work, some guys were talking and said, "hey, we don't know where to buy flowers, but ask [bassman], he's sensitive, he's an F (Myers-Briggs) i.e., interpersonally sensitive). I went over and said, "noooo......I'm not sensitive, it's just that you guys are so f***king insensitive!!" :>}I enjoyed that moment...it was the end of feeling bad about sensitivity.
As far as my marriage, I'm committed to it.
You know, the posts have helped me a lot...I feel much better about the situation and have less of an urge to "fix" anything and also ask myself if I'm doing something because I feel it is a caring thing to do or because I feel like I have to or it won't get done. Just that thought calms me...thank you so much for your help. Of course, the down side is I may be back for more support and advice. :>}
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to OMG! How are *you* doing? » Daisym, posted by Racer on April 23, 2006, at 10:45:17
Oops, sorry Racer, you were talking to Daisym about the calling-I misunderstood.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
It's not necessarily passive agressiveness. I think women sometimes like to process their days through talking about them. So they might come home and rant a bit then feel better.
I procrastinate all the time in things that have nothing to do with my husband as well as things that do. I just have a hard time organizing myself. I get distracted by other things along the way.
In our house we just deal with it (on both sides) by doing what's important to us ourselves. That's the rule. If it's important to you that it gets done, you do it. If it's important to you that it gets done in a certain way, you do it. Since both of us tend to get impatient with the timeliness of the other in doing what's important to us, it works well.
And I keep a therapist to talk about stuff to.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to Re: No problem... » bassman, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2006, at 21:10:54
Racer you're a genius.
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:29
In reply to I should've read further, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2006, at 21:15:16
This is the end of the thread.
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