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Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:29:31
> Oh goodie, a negative person! Would you give me your opinion on how to handle the situations I mentioned in my previous post (procrastination, etc.). And complaining-agree, just acknowledge, etc.? Thanks, I really appreciate it.
I did read your previous post. Negative people ARE positive, too. The negativity outweighs the optimism, so most times it goes unnoticed. (Society feeds on or notices drama more) I also feel that people can be TOO optimistic, leaving themselves vulnerable or unprepared for undesirable outcomes.
One piece of advice to you (Note: I give it better than follow it myself :`LOL) Try not too direct your negativity toward other people, as it may alienate them from you. As a friend told me, "once you speak it, then it manifests itself."Hope that was not too off-track. RSVP
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 9:43:56
I'm confused-you know that I'm the person trying to deal with the PA person; I'm not the PA (actually, I'm very direct)-so I didn't understand the sentence,"Try not too direct your negativity toward other people, as it may alienate them from you. As a friend told me, "once you speak it, then it manifests itself." - What did I miss?
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:01:59
Oops. I wasn't paying very good attention was I? (feel stupid now) Sorry. (Sitting here at work trying to do a little communicating). I'll try again.
Usually my wife just goes about her business without even bothering with me. Eventually I start feeling guilty that she is doing everything and I will get off my ars to help around the house and such.
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 10:18:57
What does she do that works best for you when you're being negative/complaining? Please don't feel "stupid", I probably didn't make things clear (I'm in the lab, distracted by work :>}) and I also really appreciate your responses.
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 10:42:07
Hmm... now you've really got me thinking.
Well, I have bipolar personality, a little depression, anxiety, obsession, compulsion and some explosive anger issues. These are some things that work for me (a little):
Getting professional help.
Accepting that I am and being conscious of when I am getting off-course.
My medication: Lamictal and Wellbutrin (I think I need some other too.)
My spouse's support . When I get frustrated and she says, "Calm down, everything will be ok."
My friend's support. He says calmly "I wouldn't worry about it" when I get a little obsessed or angry about something.
My other friend's support. He says "Dont speak the words because then it manifests itself." (Dont know if that one will work for you?)
And mostly, listening to those people and wanting to do the things they say. That part is all up to me.*Does she know she needs help? Is she getting help? If not, does she want to get help?
curtm
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 11:21:43
No, she doesn't want help and thinks that is just "her style"-that is, it's just her personality. She would never go to a therapist or take a med. She doesn't see her negativity as a problem-and suggesting that it might be is not good for the quality of my life, trust me. I have this theory that the more people need therapy/meds, the more resistant to them they are. If you are more "normal", you just say, "well, let's see if it helps...and I can always bag it if it doesn't". The part you wrote about just saying that things probably aren't as bad as they seems at the moment was helpful...
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 11:38:15
"...saying that things probably aren't as bad as they seem at the moment..."
bassmanCould you apply this to your own thinking, too, with respect to how you percieve her?
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 11:59:01
I had exactly that thought as I was writing it; thanks for reminding me. I worry that she is suffering needlessly-or at least, she could be suffering less. Being a panic disorder person myself, I certainly know how horrible anxiety/depression can be and I probably try to "overhelp"-but for people with panic, that works well. Just not PA, evidently...
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:01:59
>
> How do you handle just general complaining and also procratination, "I can't do that right now", etc.Speaking as a procrastinator, underneath the exterior avoidance are usually two things for me: I generally *am* kinda incubating action -- if it's a paper i need to write, somewhere inside a sort of framework is coming together, if it's housework, part of me is planning the order of attack, and chunking it down to manageable amounts, and generally I'm getting some other distractions out before starting, so that I won't stop in the middle of something. And there's a lot of energy going into self-recrimination. THAT's what gets fed by my husband stepping in with the comments he makes, "You're not doing [x], you'll be upset with yourself if you don't, it won't happen if you just sit there in front of the computer/reading/in front of the TV/knitting/whatever." So, I don't recommend that approach.
What would help me, though, is to have him say, "What would it take for you to start? What can I do to help you get past your block?"
AND THEN DO IT.
See, my husband is pretty passive agressive, and we both procrastinate. But that's what would help me, having some help getting some things taken care of, so that I don't feel so overwhelmed.
>I just wonder if there is a way to handle complaining in a useful way-is it best to agree, to just listen, etc. Suggesting alternative ways of seeing things/doing things (in summary, be more direct/assertive and maybe things will get better is my standard thought)has yielded the reaction that I'm being critical.
Yeah, that would probably be my reaction, too. My husband seems to take complaining as the primary means of communication, but he won't take any suggestions past the point of knocking them down. But if I "complain" -- which includes telling him I feel bad about something, as far as he is concerned -- he "offers suggestions" that feel very critical.
Example: much of what my mother says to me feel very critical to me, and he'll often say, "no, you misinterpreted that. Here's what she meant..." Guess what? That doesn't feel good. I end up feeling hurt by her, guilty for feeling that way since no one else can see why I'd be hurt -- and generally invalidated. A better response might be, "that probably hurts," or "I'm sorry you feel hurt." Just simple, straightforward validation.
In the case of my husband, I try to do the simple validation, when he starts complaining. (And in his case, it's cultural. He didn't grow up here, and he uses the customs of his homeland -- walking into a store and starting off with a complaint there isn't enough space in their car park, for instance. Store owner will get upset, when he just means it as a sort of "how 'bout them 49ers?" comment.) I've learned, over the years, that some of it I can tune out pretty entirely. And when it's real, I can listen, say I'm sorry he feels upset/stressed/frustrated/whatever, and tell him I love him. I don't have to solve his problem, and I don't have to help him solve his problem. But i do have to be a loving and supportive spouse.
And when the passive aggression comes out, in some cases I do use WishingStar's gambit: I take what he says at face value, and respond accordingly. And that works well for me, too. I really recommend it for those times when you can do so.
Other times, I haven't figured out what to do. I try to be clear, straightforward, etc. That hasn't worked yet. (That tends to be about behavior. I'll tell him that I need something -- him to be ready to go by a certain time, or him to set a time he will be ready to go; chores around the house done, or help getting them done -- and he'll say, "Yes, sure, OK, yes, I will definitely do that, I will be ready at [x], I will help you do that on this day" -- and nothing happens. Well, nothing except that I get upset, because he's laid on the sofa all day, or [word GG was scolded for]ed around until we're late leaving the house. So, what I work on now is learning to shift my own expectations, so that I don't rely on him, and don't end up so upset.)
I hope that helps a bit. It's about the best I can come up with right now, but if you have any specific situations to ask about, I can try to put myself into them and see if anything helps me.
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by Racer on April 21, 2006, at 12:39:05
Racer,
Thanks so much! I am going to take advantage of asking you more a little later...but I am getting the feeling of what really, really doesn't work-and that is a help. The words you used, like "overwhelmed", etc. are exactly my wife's terms, as well. Who knows, I may survive...:>}Thanks for taking the time to write such an in-depth post-I plan to read it several times.
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 12:50:17
It was a great way to avoid housecleaning and studying...
:-D
And ask away -- I really am getting things done, just need those breaks now and again, or I get too wound up...
Posted by orchid on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 7:53:59
Just wanted to say, I appreciate your efforts at trying to help and understand your wife. My husband's efforts to understand me really helps me.
I don't know anything about passive-aggression, but asking her to go a T might be a good place to start.
Sounds like she is defensive and you trying to get through the defense may not work. A neutral third party might be better at getting to her.
When I was defensive, I didn't listen to anything my husband said. But I listened to the same things when told by my T :-)
I think that is probably best now for you - back off and let a T do the handling for you if possible.
Posted by orchid on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:51:19
hmm.. i guess I should take that back since your wife refuses to go to a T. That is a tough one then.
Honestly, I wouldn't know what would work. Maybe if you asked her to go to therapy with you, she might relent? Like go for marital therapy where you are also part of the process, instead of just asking her to go?
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to No problem... » bassman, posted by Racer on April 21, 2006, at 13:03:25
Just re-read your post-got even more out of it than the first time. You've got a great writing style; it's very entertaining and emotionally direct. O.K., here's a couple situations:
Wife comes home every day from work, fuming mad about the same things and rants about them-the first thing out of her mouth. The first question I have is, "why would anyone want to subject someone else to that?"-I'm not one who rants-more the short phrases or I'm just quiet, so I don't get the ranting. But more important-what can I do that would be useful and what should I avoid?
Do you have any advice on how to process the negativity so that I don't feel so stressed by it?
It seems to me that the procrastinating is sort of of a form of control, at least that's the way it feels-maybe?
What can be done to have her express whatever it is that is really bothering her (I just had the thought that maybe exactly what she is ranting about is IT-look no farther)-she is not a "what's bothering you, honey" person-she doesn't want to come into contact with that. I really appreciate your help-sorry my post is all over the map...
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:51:19
She doesn't believe she has a problem, so why would she go to a therapist? Case closed...also, she has a resentment about therapists-a very long, painful story. But I do agree with you 100% (which counts for nothing, in this case, I think :>}).
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » orchid, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:56:43
Nice try. :>} Nothing wrong, no therapy. She's really very afraid of her feelings...
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 12:50:17
We all know that accepting that you have some behaviors that need to be addressed is a difficult one. She could be scared to go there. I was. The more my wife mentioned it, the less I wanted to listen. I had to realize it for myself. It took a heavy bout of depression (caused by my discontent that was caused by me persistent negativity...) She may end up going down that road too if it is that bad. But lighten up a little bit. Give her some space perhaps. If she is aggressive toward you still, say that you don't like to be treated that way. Want you both to be happy.
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
Hmmmm!
Rule #1) Don't take work home with you.
Rule #2) Don't take home to work with you.
Posted by wishingstar on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:01:59
Good question! I can be quite the procrastinator myself, so I really dont know what to do about that. I wish I did. :) I'm also not married and dont live with anyone, so it's hard for me to give advice on dealing with a person you see day in and day out.
The only thing that comes to mind for me is telling her how you feel, which I'd guess you've done.. but possibly doing it in a way that almost makes it sound like it's your problem and you need HER help. Keep reading! I am by NO means saying this is your fault.. but sometimes the way we word things to people makes all the difference in THEIR behavior. But what if you said something like.. "you come home every day upset about the same things, and it makes me feel so bad.. It's really hard for me to hear.. but I just dont know what I can do for you" in hopes that she'll then tell you what she really needs from you, or at least see that shes really putting a lot on you. I obviously dont know your wife so it may not work.. but things like that have worked for me in the past.
Often when people are complaining I dont think they really want to be shown alternative ways of doing things though.. unless they are really asking for them. Complaining it more of a "poor me" activity in a sense.. and it sounds like that's really true with her, since she gets mad when you try to help. Maybe even tag something on to what I wrote above about how you feel so helpless (fill in your own word of course) because you dont know what to do.. etc etc.
I really hope none of this came across as me blaming you or anything like that. I'm not trying to at all.. it's just a tricky twist of words, I guess. But I dont think of it as being manipulative.. just submitting to what the person needs in order to respond well, I guess. Oh well, I'm rambling. Good luck!
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by wishingstar on April 21, 2006, at 15:13:11
Oh no-please, blame me and tell me it's all my fault! I blame myself for everything, anyway, so that's no problem at all. :>} Thanks for the suggestions, morningstar! I do like the approach...and it is very valid-i.e., I am suffering and do need her help, depending on your reference frame. But when it comes to this topic, I feel like a bastard at a family picnic, if you know what I mean...
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 15:43:34
>Oh no-please, blame me and tell me it's all my fault!
Instead of blaming myself and accepting fault, I usually blame something or someone else. I know how you feel about the picnic. I should try being nice more often.
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
You don't need to apologize! That's part of what this place is about -- acceptance. Just that simple. I accept you, without any qualifiers.
> Just re-read your post-got even more out of it than the first time. You've got a great writing style; it's very entertaining and emotionally direct.
Thank you. It feels very good to hear that.
>
> Wife comes home every day from work, fuming mad about the same things and rants about them-the first thing out of her mouth. The first question I have is, "why would anyone want to subject someone else to that?"-I'm not one who rants-more the short phrases or I'm just quiet, so I don't get the ranting. But more important-what can I do that would be useful and what should I avoid?
>
Hm... This sounds a lot like my mother, who used to come home from work in the evening and just start ranting about -- well, really about anything and everything. A cousin of hers lived with her for a while, and said he would hear those footsteps that said it was one of Those Nights, and start dialing the telephone number for the public bus service so she could complain to them! (Cross my heart, that's what he said, and I think I believe he did just that.) That's one option...But more helpful for you, I think are the following two suggestions:
1. Tell her that it bothers you when she comes home and starts off with the negativity about her day; and ask her for what you want instead: I'd suggest asking for a hello, a hug, a kiss, some moment that the two of you can reconnect, before she goes into her pressure release.
2. I'm thinking that is a pressure release for her, and not much more. She sounds as though she gets over-stressed by her job, for whatever reason (my guess: if she refuses to examine her emotions and behaviors at home, the same is true at work), and the Nightly Negativity are her way of clearing her emotional buffers. She's just blowing off steam. It might be just as well to take it that way, and realize you don't actually have to listen to the content, only to validate her distress. Unless she's asking for help finding a solution, you don't have to offer any suggestions. Just wait for her to finish, say something like, "You sound so stressed by your day; I wish there was something I could do to help [if that's true]; and I'm glad you're home now [again, only if that's true]"
3. I thought of a third: ASK her what she's looking for when she does this. "Honey, you come home and blow off steam about your day so often, how would you like me to react? Are you just looking for sympathy? Would you like help trying to find a solution for the problems you complain about? Please let me know how I can help you when you do this, because I feel uncomfortable not knowing what to do for you, and it's hard for me to deal with it."
>
> Do you have any advice on how to process the negativity so that I don't feel so stressed by it?
>
Yeah -- but it's hard. Do your best to ignore it. You can try offering her a glass of wine when she comes home, or just taking her coat to hang up and giving her a kiss. You could try setting boundaries, like letting her have three sentences of her rant and then saying, "Stop! I know you may have more to say, but I can't listen anymore tonight." and change the subject to something neutral.Or, you could try turning it into a game where you don't have to take in the content: count how many times she repeats a complaint; count how many times she uses one of those phrases that she uses too often (my husband has one that offends the grammarian in my soul); try to anticipate the next complain topic; have another conversation with her in your head, and see if you can use your lines in that one out loud without her noticing. Just -- play. If you can do that, it really will diminish the power of the negativity.
>
> It seems to me that the procrastinating is sort of of a form of control, at least that's the way it feels-maybe?
>
Depends -- for me, most of my procrastinating is based on fear. I feel completely out of control when I am procrastinating. And I feel ashamed of myself, guilty, all sorts of horrible things. If she feels any of those, well, she has my sympathy and empathy.On the other hand, my husband tends to put off things that I've asked him to do, and he gets lost into his own obsessions instead of doing things he needs to do. Generally, he does get work done in time to meet deadlines for his employer, but even there he's a bit -- well, for instance, one of his old bosses told him he had to be at work by a certain time. That time was within the time he usually showed up at work, so it wasn't as though this was a huge imposition -- but after that, he wouldn't leave home before that time. He'd just mosey around, until he was going to be late. THAT is controlling behavior, and passive aggression.
My T and I are talking now about how to deal with this. It comes up a lot about our household chores, and I get overwhelmed and then give up. And when I say that I give up, it carries over to most of my life. My husband's failure to do something as trivial as vacuuming, when he's promised to do it, can send me into a very dark place, emotionally. I just curl up inside.
So, what has she suggested? She's suggested a couple of things: hiring a cleaning lady; tell him that it would help me if he would do [x], and ask him if he will -- and then trust him to follow through, none of the subtle, "Yeah, you say you will, but I will only believe it when I see it" attitudes; and just stop expecting that he will do anything at all, and make other arrangements.
That doesn't feel all that optimistic, does it? In my case, it's not just that my husband won't do anything to help clean up -- he will mess up something I've just spent the entire afternoon cleaning. To me, it's drattedly hard to believe that's unconscious, you know?
I think, really, that asking if she will do something, and lowering your expectations are probably the best options. "Honey, I have to clean up the backyard this weekend -- is there any part of it that you'd be willing to help with?" Or just saying to yourself, "Asking her for help with this is likely to lead to bad feelings on both sides -- is there an alternative such as hiring someone or calling a friend?"
>
> What can be done to have her express whatever it is that is really bothering her (I just had the thought that maybe exactly what she is ranting about is IT-look no farther)-she is not a "what's bothering you, honey" person-she doesn't want to come into contact with that. I really appreciate your help-sorry my post is all over the map...Honestly? Whether or not she expresses anything that's bothering her underneath what she rants about is entirely up to her. That's something you have no control over, and I think your best bet is to disengage yourself from trying to fix that. It might be helpful for both of you for you to take whatever she says as being the whole story.
I have another thought, which I will post in a minute, but this is too long already, and I don't want it to get lost...
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
This is something else to think about: you can only control your own behavior, right? But what happens within relationships is that you form a sort of interaction-dance. If she comes home and rants, you may give her the same response every time, which brings out the same response from her, etc.
There's nothing you can do to change her behavior.
But if you change your behavior -- maybe by taking her rants as being about the whole problem, maybe by letting her procrastinate as much as she chooses to, maybe just by greeting her with a smile every evening -- it's going to change that dynamic between you. It may not solve anything, but at least it has a chance of making your evenings more pleasant for both of you.
Good luck.
(Oh, and I got my hubby into therapy through marriage counseling, and through pointing out to him that if I really was his major source of worry, talking to ME about it wasn't so productive for him. I told him I couldn't be the one he brought his worries about me to, because I felt so guilty and miserable already -- and suggested he get a therapist so that he could complain about me to someone...)
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to That last thought... » bassman, posted by Racer on April 21, 2006, at 17:01:21
Wow, I really appreciate it! I LOVED the make up stories in your head idea! That will keep me smiling-also the anticipate what's next idea. I used to go to an eye doc that was excellent, but had the most unpleasant personality in upstate NY. I decided that I would continue to go to him and instead of being intimidated by his comments, just listen and see if he could outdo his last set of insensitive remarks. I couldn't lose: either he was reasonable or I hit the jackpot and he said something really crass that made me laugh inside!
Thank you again, Racer, for taking so much time with me. I feel a lot better about the situation-I think you're right about much of it being venting and I just need to work on my part-not being stressed and just validating her experience.
Posted by Daisym on April 24, 2006, at 12:16:28
In reply to Thanks so much, Racer, others that offered help!, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 17:33:13
I'm going to offer a slightly different perspective, if I may...
I've read this whole thread and I could have written almost everything you did, except I'm the wife. Long story short -- I left my husband this week. After almost 23 years of marriage -- 25 years together -- I couldn't take it anymore.
His negativity has stolen all of my happiness, and I lived in a constant state of dread at home. I'd hear him drive in at dinnertime and my stomach would clench. I endured at least an hour of ranting each evening, about work, about his health, about the traffic, about everything and anything it felt like. He has gradually lost most of his friends over the years, our kids avoid him mostly...well, I could go on but you get the picture.
The kicker? He was SHOCKED when I said I was moving out. SHOCKED. He said he had no idea I was so unhappy, no idea the his behavior was effecting me so badly. *sigh*
So...two pieces of advice. Try not to do back flips to avoid making her upset. You'll make yourself crazy. Just do what you know you need or want to do in a respectful way so that you maintain control of yourself and your life. The other thing is to set limits. Be honest and frank about how much YOU can take. Not what she can do -- what you are willing to listen to or put up with. Say something like, "Honey, I know you need to vent afterwork but too much of it upsets me a great deal. So,I'll listen for a little while and then I'm going to excuse myself and go read(or watch TV,etc.) If there is something really important to you, or something that really bugs you when it isn't done, do those things yourself. But don't do everything. Let go of the other things. I think sometimes we end up picking up so much slack, in order to avoid more bickering, that the other person is freed from all responsibility, and we get resentful. On the other hand, you can't MAKE a grownup do what they don't want to do. So draw your line in the sand, verbalize your line and hold it.
Good luck. I hope you work this out. Living under a black cloud is superhard.
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