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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 27, 2005, at 23:08:29
Ugh.
I know, I know it was best for us to just be friends but...
But I miss her so much it hurts.
I know she misses me too.
It's for the best, I know, but there are times it hurts to look at her. I feel like I've lost so much.
Drives me nuts.I hate to think about it, try to block it out with television and music and anything to get my mind off of how bad I feel but sometimes I just CAN'T, and when I run out of cop shows to waste my time with and I'm sitting in silence I feel like I'm going to explode...
And I don't want to talk to my friends about this because they will badmouth her and I don't want that. As much as I'm hurt and mad at her (unjustly, but still) I love her and don't want to speak ill of her. So I guess I'm just venting on here, hope that's okay. Just blasting this into cyberspace.
Sigh. Tommorrow is another day and all that.
Posted by Susan47 on December 28, 2005, at 12:23:03
In reply to Missing her so much..., posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 27, 2005, at 23:08:29
Well, I know how it feels wyatt. I know how it feels.
There's nothing to do but live it.
Write letters, maybe? That's what I did. And the best antidote to love is to write it all out, because you end up looking and feeling really stupid afterwards. Which helps.
But not when you realize you made an idiot of yourself.
Not when you realize how blind this emotion of "love" really is, and how wrapped up in transference it can be.
Why do you love someone who doesn't feel the same way about you? Why?
Posted by Tamar on December 28, 2005, at 16:42:55
In reply to Missing her so much..., posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 27, 2005, at 23:08:29
> Ugh.
> I know, I know it was best for us to just be friends but...
> But I miss her so much it hurts.I’m sorry you’re hurting.
> I know she misses me too.
> It's for the best, I know, but there are times it hurts to look at her. I feel like I've lost so much.Well, she’s bound to be special to you. And it sounds as if it was more her decision than yours. Can you talk to her about it?
One thing I wondered… was it a relationship that was inappropriate in some way? I can see why she’d insist on ending it if she’s your teacher or something like that, but I’m not sure why she won’t simply let it run its course if the main issue is the age difference. But maybe there are factors I don’t know about…
My perspective on age difference comes from my own experience: I had a wonderful relationship when I was in my early twenties with someone who was in his fifties. It was brief (he moved overseas with his job after a few months), but it was very special. It can work; it’s hard to make it work long term, but it can be very rewarding if you don’t have too many expectations.
> Drives me nuts.
>
> I hate to think about it, try to block it out with television and music and anything to get my mind off of how bad I feel but sometimes I just CAN'T, and when I run out of cop shows to waste my time with and I'm sitting in silence I feel like I'm going to explode...I think writing letters is a good idea. You don’t have to post them. But I find writing stuff down helps me to get it off my chest.
> And I don't want to talk to my friends about this because they will badmouth her and I don't want that. As much as I'm hurt and mad at her (unjustly, but still) I love her and don't want to speak ill of her. So I guess I'm just venting on here, hope that's okay. Just blasting this into cyberspace.
Vent here all you want. But if you can think of a friend who might be prepared to listen without making a big fuss about it, that would probably help too.
> Sigh. Tommorrow is another day and all that.Yes. Take it one day at a time. I hope you feel better soon.
Tamar
Posted by Declan on December 28, 2005, at 19:34:14
In reply to Missing her so much..., posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 27, 2005, at 23:08:29
Look, far be it from me to tell you how to think about this, but why is it all for the best?
It's a 20 year age gap, and that seems to be it; everything else was lovely.
The question is 'how important is the 20 year gap to you?' And I think the answer is that it does matter to you.
But it wouldn't to me, not if everything else was like you said, not for a moment.
I shouldn't give people advice about anything, but I guess that's taken for granted.
Declan
Posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 28, 2005, at 19:48:11
In reply to Re: Missing her so much... » wyatthaslakefever, posted by Declan on December 28, 2005, at 19:34:14
A combined two-part respnose-type thing:
She's not my teacher or anything like that so no, I guess it's not inapropriate as far as that goes. But as to the age difference... I think it's more of a LIFE difference. I'm just about to graduate from college, terrified of the future, etc. etc. and she's a 40 year old working professional. She's been in a long-term relationship (several, actually) and I have not. She is 100 percent comfortable with sex and sexuality, whereas I am just entering that phase of my life. I feel like I cannot be what she ultimately needs--not a friend with benifits but a real-live girlfriend, the type who would be ready to, I don't know, move in at some point... Whereas I oftentimes need to be alone, alone, alone and unreachable.
We're both afraid of losing each other, I think, and if we continue as 'lovers' or whathaveyou, there's a chance it will end poorly and hurtfully. I think we're both protecting ourselves and are in pretty much in agreement that this descision is a nessisary evil.
BUT, that said: it still HURTS. That's the point. I feel less nervous now, less like I'm doing something I'm not quite ready for. If I had more experience under my belt, maybe. If I wasn't on the cusp of my adult life, again, maybe. Who knows?
Anyway, thanks for listening. Thanks, thanks, thanks. You don't know how much it means.
Posted by Tamar on December 28, 2005, at 20:29:29
In reply to Re: Missing her so much...Tamar/Declan, posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 28, 2005, at 19:48:11
Hi again,
> She's not my teacher or anything like that so no, I guess it's not inapropriate as far as that goes. But as to the age difference... I think it's more of a LIFE difference.
I’m glad it’s not an inappropriate relationship. But it’s true that an age difference is often a life difference.
> I'm just about to graduate from college, terrified of the future, etc. etc. and she's a 40 year old working professional. She's been in a long-term relationship (several, actually) and I have not.
Call me a hopeless romantic, but I don’t think that means you can’t be together. To me, it sounds as if you could learn a lot from her about how nice a long term relationship can be.
> She is 100 percent comfortable with sex and sexuality, whereas I am just entering that phase of my life. I feel like I cannot be what she ultimately needs--not a friend with benifits but a real-live girlfriend, the type who would be ready to, I don't know, move in at some point... Whereas I oftentimes need to be alone, alone, alone and unreachable.
Maybe that’s not so much about the age difference but about the differences in what you each need from a relationship. Many people having sex for the first time are totally comfortable with it. Some people who have been sexually active for 20 years are not yet 100 percent comfortable. And it takes time to get to know someone well enough to know you want them to be a ‘real live-in girlfriend’. I had a real live-in girlfriend once, and we knew each other for a whole year before we lived together.
> We're both afraid of losing each other, I think, and if we continue as 'lovers' or whathaveyou, there's a chance it will end poorly and hurtfully. I think we're both protecting ourselves and are in pretty much in agreement that this descision is a nessisary evil.
There’s always a chance it will end hurtfully. It’s the price we pay for being alive. But if you agree with her, then I guess there’s not much that can be done. And if you feel in your gut that you need to protect yourself, then you should trust your intuition (IMHO).
> BUT, that said: it still HURTS. That's the point. I feel less nervous now, less like I'm doing something I'm not quite ready for. If I had more experience under my belt, maybe. If I wasn't on the cusp of my adult life, again, maybe. Who knows?
Experience comes slowly. It’s good to have a first sexual experience with someone you care for. And in time you will have more sex with other women and it will be a little different, but there is plenty of opportunity for beautiful experiences.
> Anyway, thanks for listening. Thanks, thanks, thanks. You don't know how much it means.
Glad it helps. Keep talking. You will find a wonderful partner and it won’t take long because you are, as you say, on the cusp of adult life, and finding a partner is part of being an adult.
Good luck!
Tamar
Posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 29, 2005, at 19:05:55
In reply to Re: Missing her so much...Tamar/Declan » wyatthaslakefever, posted by Tamar on December 28, 2005, at 20:29:29
> Call me a hopeless romantic, but I don’t think that means you can’t be together. To me, it sounds as if you could learn a lot from her about how nice a long term relationship can be.
>Ugh, I just got off the phone with her. She called. She still calls. And I was a moron and was my typical passive-agressive self and she got ticked off (and rightly so) so I just came clean and said I was mad and scr*wed up because... Because I'd fallen in love with her... and that i missed her... She's so bad with small tonal changes--like if my voice displays a hint of anger, she flips out, which is kind of awful because I know that each time I 'mess up' and "scold" her or whatever that it's another mark against me...
But we left the conversation on good terms. I'm seeing her tommorrow. I still feel like a super j*rk though.
ANYWAY....
> There’s always a chance it will end hurtfully. It’s the price we pay for being alive.
That's what I always say. But I'd just die if I hurt her. I'd rather be the hurt one.
>But if you agree with her, then I guess there’s not much that can be done.
I just... I don't want to be uncomfortable. I don't want to be the kind of uncertain that I was--not the trepidatious type of uncertain, the foreboding kind, the kind that... That made me think I was doing something I shouldn't be. Not because of age, nessisarily, just because of... I guess intuition.
But it STILL HURTS and I'm STILL CONFUSED AND MESSED UP ABOUT IT and DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY... Because if it's the right thing to do... Gah. I don't know.
> Experience comes slowly. It’s good to have a first sexual experience with someone you care for. And in time you will have more sex with other women and it will be a little different, but there is plenty of opportunity for beautiful experiences.
>Yes. This seems to be the general concensus.
> Glad it helps. Keep talking. You will find a wonderful partner and it won’t take long because you are, as you say, on the cusp of adult life, and finding a partner is part of being an adult.
>Thanks! Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. I hope I DO find a partner someday. I never thought I would...
Posted by Declan on December 29, 2005, at 20:27:24
In reply to Re: Missing her so much...Tamar/DeclanTamar, posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 29, 2005, at 19:05:55
You should go for it, kiddo. I mean it sounds pretty good. You've told her you love her and are therefore screwed up and miserable. If your tone was a tad angry you can always tell her again differently. Don't worry about it lasting forever or anything. Who knows? The thing is 'can it be nice and good?', and from what you say it sounds like it can. And that's really precious. You're only 21, hey? What's life without love? I wouldn't be thinking about a permanent partner. Of course you will, but time will take care of that, one way or another.
Declan
Posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 29, 2005, at 23:55:20
In reply to Re: Missing her so much...Tamar/DeclanTamar, posted by Declan on December 29, 2005, at 20:27:24
> You should go for it, kiddo. I mean it sounds pretty good. You've told her you love her and are therefore screwed up and miserable. If your tone was a tad angry you can always tell her again differently.
>Don't worry about it lasting forever or anything. Who knows?>
Problem is, breakups--h-e-double hockeysticks, not even breakups, even unrequited love/like--leave her incapacitated. For a long time. She gets very very depressed and gloomy for long periods of time. This worries me and I don't want to be the cause of it.
>The thing is 'can it be nice and good?', and from what you say it sounds like it can. And that's really precious.>
But I get so nervous... Like i'm out of control and don't know what i'm doing... Like I'm trying to fill shoes I can't fill... I mean we care deeply for each other but know we can't be the right person for each other. Or something. And there's no convincing her now... I mean we've been through this before but somehow I think the resolution to remain friends will stick this time. To be crude about it, she got what she wanted...
> You're only 21, hey? What's life without love? I wouldn't be thinking about a permanent partner. >
I think that's kind of what she's looking for, what she needs. A long-term, perminant-type partner. I don't think friends with benifits was really working for her.
Sigh. C'est la vie.
Posted by Tamar on December 30, 2005, at 13:22:39
In reply to Re: Missing her so much...Tamar/DeclanTamar, posted by wyatthaslakefever on December 29, 2005, at 19:05:55
> Ugh, I just got off the phone with her. She called. She still calls. And I was a moron and was my typical passive-agressive self and she got ticked off (and rightly so) so I just came clean and said I was mad and scr*wed up because... Because I'd fallen in love with her... and that i missed her... She's so bad with small tonal changes--like if my voice displays a hint of anger, she flips out, which is kind of awful because I know that each time I 'mess up' and "scold" her or whatever that it's another mark against me...
Gosh, it sounds like a difficult phone call. Does she never ‘mess up’ in any way? Most relationships I’ve been in have been pretty even in the messing up, displays of anger, hurtful comments and suchlike. But I hope she’s not keeping score, because a long term relationship or even a friendship can’t really tolerate that. It’s absolutely necessary to be able to forgive the other person and leave the past in the past, so if she finds it hard to forgive and forget you’d be in for a rough ride.
> But we left the conversation on good terms. I'm seeing her tommorrow. I still feel like a super j*rk though.
You’re not a j*rk. You’re sad and hurting. And I hope she can understand that; because she’s probably rather sad too. I hope you both enjoy your time together tomorrow.
> ANYWAY....
>
> > There’s always a chance it will end hurtfully. It’s the price we pay for being alive.
>
> That's what I always say. But I'd just die if I hurt her. I'd rather be the hurt one.That’s part of being in love, isn’t it? You can’t imagine hurting the other person – you’d rather take any kind of hurt than see the beloved hurt. And yet, somehow, eventually and inevitably, people do hurt each other in relationships. I guess we have to be able to trust our partners not to hurt us more than we can tolerate, and trust ourselves always to love our partners enough that we hold ourselves back before we hurt them too much. I don’t think we can avoid pain entirely, but we can take steps to avoid as much as possible.
> >But if you agree with her, then I guess there’s not much that can be done.
>
> I just... I don't want to be uncomfortable. I don't want to be the kind of uncertain that I was--not the trepidatious type of uncertain, the foreboding kind, the kind that... That made me think I was doing something I shouldn't be. Not because of age, nessisarily, just because of... I guess intuition.I wonder… You’re a woman, aren’t you? I remember the first time I made love with a woman I found it quite emotionally taxing. I kept feeling I shouldn’t be doing it. I talked to my lover about it and she pointed out that I’d grown up with a lot of conservative Christian influences that might cause me to feel that loving a woman was immoral. And I think she had a point. And if I remember your first post about all this, you put something in the subject line about homophobes not reading it, didn’t you? So maybe, even if you feel completely comfortable intellectually with being a woman who has sex with women, perhaps there are still a few emotional issues that bother you. Perhaps you worry that people might judge you, or if there is really something a little wrong about sex with a woman. I don’t know if I can help much with that except to say I personally don’t believe there’s anything wrong with it; it’s certainly not against nature (since many animals exhibit homosexual behaviour) and I found in my own experience that it felt more comfortable the more I did it.
If on the other hand it’s the prospect of a relationship with this particular person that your intuition tells you to avoid, then I think it’s a good idea to listen to your intuition. You might be somehow aware that she’s not a good match for you. But of course, I know nothing about the situation.
> But it STILL HURTS and I'm STILL CONFUSED AND MESSED UP ABOUT IT and DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY... Because if it's the right thing to do... Gah. I don't know.
Confusion is something that goes together with attraction and relationships. If only we could know for sure what the other person was thinking and feeling! Then things would be easier. And if only we could understand our own thoughts and feelings…
But maybe she’s a little confused too. And maybe there’s really no right or wrong about it… It just is.
> Thanks! Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. I hope I DO find a partner someday. I never thought I would...
I’m sure you will find a partner someday. Most people who want a partner find one.
Tamar
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