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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by happyflower on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:20
I recently started to play the trumpet again after 15 years, and I take lessons from a formal teacher I had in college. Since I am not really a kid or student, our relationship is more friend like than anything. This is good because we play in musical groups together.
We have a very honest relationship and I see him like a brother. He is like 24 yrs older. I am not attracted to him at all, and I think the same is for him too. I have a lot of fun joking around him and we enjoy each other company. We like to talk about playing the trumpet and music.Well a group of us trumpet players were going to take a lesson from a famous trumpet player about 5 hours away. I had to cancel a couple of days before the trip. Well I left a message on the phone that I couldn't go. Well he neglected to tell his wife that a women was going on this trip (I would have my own hotel room). Well when this wife saw me she got very jeolous of me.
Now I feel like my teacher is pulling away from me, isn't as friendly as he used to be. It kinda hurts, because I saw him as a friend. Plus I take weekly lessons from him too, and see him a couple of other days per week too for band rehearsals. I am trying to open myself up more to people and make friends since therapy. The first person I did, now is messed up. Maybe I should to stick to women friends only. I don't want to cause any problems for anyones marriage. It seems like everyone is leaving me lately. It makes me wonder what is wrong with me.
Posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 3:10:08
In reply to male/female friendships are hard, posted by happyflower on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:20
Hi Happyflower,
> I recently started to play the trumpet again after 15 years, and I take lessons from a formal teacher I had in college. Since I am not really a kid or student, our relationship is more friend like than anything. This is good because we play in musical groups together.
Yeah, that sounds like a good basis for a friendship.
> We have a very honest relationship and I see him like a brother. He is like 24 yrs older. I am not attracted to him at all, and I think the same is for him too. I have a lot of fun joking around him and we enjoy each other company. We like to talk about playing the trumpet and music.
As long as you’re sure he isn’t attracted to you…
> Well a group of us trumpet players were going to take a lesson from a famous trumpet player about 5 hours away. I had to cancel a couple of days before the trip. Well I left a message on the phone that I couldn't go. Well he neglected to tell his wife that a women was going on this trip (I would have my own hotel room). Well when this wife saw me she got very jeolous of me.
I wonder why he didn’t tell her you’d be going… Did he just forget? Did he know she’d be jealous and hope she wouldn’t find out? Are you sure he isn’t attracted to you? Or maybe he is just an uncommunicative person so she gets jealous because she thinks there must be something going on because he isn’t telling her anything… so he doesn’t tell her anything because that would make her jealous…
> Now I feel like my teacher is pulling away from me, isn't as friendly as he used to be. It kinda hurts, because I saw him as a friend. Plus I take weekly lessons from him too, and see him a couple of other days per week too for band rehearsals. I am trying to open myself up more to people and make friends since therapy. The first person I did, now is messed up. Maybe I should to stick to women friends only. I don't want to cause any problems for anyones marriage. It seems like everyone is leaving me lately. It makes me wonder what is wrong with me.I’m sorry your teacher/friend seems to be pulling away. Have you tried talking to him about it? I don’t think you should ask him whether his wife is jealous, but maybe you could say something like you got the impression his wife didn’t like you and you wondered if you’d done something to offend her… or something like that. Maybe he’ll tell you what’s going on.
I don’t think you need to avoid male friends… but male friends with jealous wives can be difficult. I guess it depends how much the man understands his wife’s jealousy. He has to be able to deal with it.
It’s an unfortunate way to lose a friendship, where there was absolutely nothing going on but the guy’s wife didn’t like it. It’s very sad when wives don’t trust their husbands to be just friends with a woman. But then, I suppose I don’t know what else is going on in someone’s marriage…
Posted by octopusprime on October 27, 2005, at 4:30:46
In reply to male/female friendships are hard, posted by happyflower on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:20
i'm going to ramble on about the relationship i had with my drum teacher last year when i was 25 (outside of school/college) and let you draw your own parallels. i wonder if his wife is jealous because of things that had happened before with his students.
if you are not interested in my ramble please feel free to scroll.
<begin ramble>
i had warm and cool periods in my relationship with my drum teacher. we were friends, saw each other outside of a teaching setting, etc. he was 18 years older than me. he had a girlfriend who was also a very good friend of mine, and was also a student in the class i was taking.
i never started out wanting to be attracted to him, neither did he. but undeniably the attraction happened over the course of the teaching relationship. this put me in the awkward position of being friends with the girlfriend (who was also in my class!) so i had to go talk to the both of them about setting appropriate boundaries so that i could continue the classes, the outside "band" that did some community events, and the friendships. that caused a cooling off period with my teacher, frankly for the better.
<side note - the drum teacher had a girlfriend in the past the same age as me (relative to him) with my same first name, and even looked somewhat like me ... cue creepy music>
in our classes and ensembles, we were working on intertwining five different drum parts (with soloing on top) together on four different types of drums to form a piece. this involved a lot of non-verbal communication, listening, and coordination to get the timing and the sound right.
my teacher attributed some of attraction to the nature of drumming - powerful and tribal with the symbolism of the hand drum with having a big hairy goat skin between the legs. also we studied in the african tradition - where drumming is very much still a virile man's game. it's meant to be a come-on for women in some ways.
i wonder though reading your story if it's not a MUSIC thing instead of a drumming thing. going back to my point about required skills for musicians being non-verbal communication, listening, and coordination -- the only other place adults tend to non-verbally coordinate actions is in the bedroom.
so it's a dangerous game to play in some ways. there are a very limited number of people with your skills and interest (playing the trumpet). your teacher is highly interested in the trumpet, and his wife feels excluded from that interest. you, as a skilled musician, demonstrate certain attributes that might indicate that you would be a good lover.
on the other hand, there is nothing wrong with taking music lessons for personal enrichment. music makes me feel alive.
and personally, i never touched my drum teacher aside from giving him hugs. it never went further than that.
i wound up leaving town and my drum teacher after we had played together for about a year and a half. i left town to further my career. ostensibly, when i looked for work in other towns, it was due to career enrichment. (i did get a big boost - a huge raise, working with lots of smart people, etc etc). but drumming was my life outside of work.
happyflower, i don't know if you are single, but i was at the time. the time i spent drumming, and the emotional energy i invested in my relationship with my teacher, i used as a substitute for having/seeking relationships with men. i think one reason i looked for work in other towns was because my personal life was not going as i intended/imagined. and continuing, week after week, to play drums while not really getting the closeness i wanted out of a relationship with a man got frustrating in some ways, no matter how much i wanted to deny it to myself. (we could also talk about a married co-worker i was emotionally close to at that time, and having that situation partially prompt a job search, but that's another kettle of fish ...)
i last took lessons from my teacher december of last year. i still see him from time to time (i live only 3 hours away) but i have not had a lot of time to visit with him/his girlfriend. i feel a bit badly about what happened, i suppose - especially the leaving abruptly part. but i have since got married and working at my new job means spending more mental energy at work (that i was previously using on my drumming). there are drum teachers in my new town but i only play informally in drum circles and with my husband (he is learning how to play as well).
compared to my emotional state this time last year, i feel much better now.
<end ramble>
Posted by happyflower on October 27, 2005, at 7:19:02
In reply to Re: male/female friendships are hard » happyflower, posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 3:10:08
,> I’m sorry your teacher/friend seems to be pulling away. Have you tried talking to him about it? I don’t think you should ask him whether his wife is jealous, but maybe you could say something like you got the impression his wife didn’t like you and you wondered if you’d done something to offend her… or something like that. Maybe he’ll tell you what’s going on.
Hi Tamar,
We have talked about this and he has told me that his wife is jeolous because she thinks I am too pretty for her DH to resist. We have a very open and honest relationship, so we can talk about stuff like this. I don't know why he didn't tell her I was going. She is also a musican, so you would think she would understand, but I guess she is just feeling insecure about her marraige. I guess if the the shoe was on the other foot, I would be a little jeolous too, so I know where she is coming from. Maybe he will loosen up again. I guess I just have to keep trying to make new friends. Thanks for your advice.>
Posted by happyflower on October 27, 2005, at 7:25:14
In reply to music friendships are hard, posted by octopusprime on October 27, 2005, at 4:30:46
Hi !
I totally relate to what you are talking about pretaining to musicains non verbal communication. My DH is a drummer also. My trumpet teacher wife is also a musican too, so we are all connected in that way.
He is the best teacher for me to study from in the area, so I don't want to change teachers. He is teaching me a new technique in playing that is making be a better player than before. I am trying to relearn the trumpet with hopes of trying out for the symphony( a dream of mine). Well I gotta go and practice, I have a lesson today and I didn't play at all yesterday. Thanks for your post, octopusprime! :)
Posted by caraher on October 27, 2005, at 9:11:42
In reply to male/female friendships are hard, posted by happyflower on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:20
> I am trying to open myself up more to people and make friends since therapy. The first person I did, now is messed up. Maybe I should to stick to women friends only. I don't want to cause any problems for anyones marriage. It seems like everyone is leaving me lately. It makes me wonder what is wrong with me.
I just want to address that last part. NOTHING is wrong with you! It sounds like you have (had?) a delightful friendship. Whatever is going on between him and his wife may affect the continuation of that friendship, but that's not because there's anything about *you* that is defective. You are not responsible for someone else's jealousy, or failure to communicate with his wife.
Posted by JenStar on October 27, 2005, at 15:06:54
In reply to male/female friendships are hard, posted by happyflower on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:20
hi Happyflower,
First, I want to congratulate you on starting up the trumpet, and for finding a way to get together regularly with other musicians. That is very cool and exciting and artsy. I'm happy you're doing that. :)But I'm sorry that the husband/wife dynamic between your teacher & his spouse is affecting his ability to have a friendship with you.
I don't think it's YOUR fault at all - there is nothing wrong with you! :) It's just that there is a lot of jealousy and concern and unresolved issues between many husbands and wives.... often wives just are NOT confident enough to be comfortable with their man having a friendship with another woman, no matter how innocent it is.
But in general I think your foray into the world of friendship was a huge success! You started lessons, and you developed a good working and friendly relationship with this man. It wasn't weird, or icky - it was NICE. Unfortunately his wife isn't OK with it, but that's his problem, not yours. So consider your friend-making ability a success. I'm sure you're a fascinating and fun person to be around! Even if this guy can't be a long-term close friend, you definitely have it within you to find many other friends.
And maybe over time he'll warm up again?
Keep us updated!JenStar
Posted by happyflower on October 28, 2005, at 11:00:31
In reply to Re: male/female friendships are hard » happyflower, posted by JenStar on October 27, 2005, at 15:06:54
Thanks Jen, your post made me feel a lot better. I guess I just need to keep trying and eventually I will click with someone. Thanks for your encouragemet! :)
Posted by alesta on October 28, 2005, at 13:33:04
In reply to male/female friendships are hard, posted by happyflower on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:20
i personally feel that female friendships are inappropriate for a male in a serious relationship. you say he is pulling away emotionally. this is as it should be. time to move on...(goes with the territory)..
just my opinion...:). (i didn't read the previous posts here..just wanted to give my 2 cents, for what that's worth.:))
take care and good luck :)
amy :)
p.s. i'm always worried ppl are going to want to argue with me when i post on this sort of topic. so, please, if you disagree, direct your opinion to happyflower, not me. i came here to simply try and help and give my opinion. thanks!
Posted by happyflower on October 28, 2005, at 14:42:03
In reply to Re: male/female friendships are hard » happyflower, posted by alesta on October 28, 2005, at 13:33:04
Thanks `Amy for you post. :) I just wanted to be his causual friend and even a friend with his wife. But if she is that jealous, maybe it wouldn't be a good idea.
Posted by Damos on October 30, 2005, at 15:17:03
In reply to male/female friendships are hard, posted by happyflower on October 26, 2005, at 21:58:20
Hi Happyflower,
I'm sorry you're being hurt by this but please rest assured that you've done nothing wrong here. There are all kinds of dynamics going on that you have no control over.
Possibly he probably didn't think you're going was a big deal and so didn't mention it. Or thought that if he did his wife would make all kinds of assumptions and judgements and there'd be a barny regardless of the truth. While his wife thought he didn't mention it so he must be hiding something blah, blah, blah. And of course there may be history on both sides that you don;t know about.
So please don't take this on yourself okay. I think it's great that you've taken up pyour instrument again and that you're trying for something that's important to you and that you're trying to build friendships. What happened is about them - not you. Hopefully the dust will settle in a little while and things will work themselves out.
Posted by Happyflower on October 30, 2005, at 16:44:03
In reply to Re: male/female friendships are hard » happyflower, posted by Damos on October 30, 2005, at 15:17:03
Thanks Damos! I think you are right about that it isn't about me. It is kinda hard making friends again and I guess I just assume it has to be me. I had a lesson Thursday, and he was his usual nice self, so I guess everything will be okay.
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