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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2005, at 10:59:21
In reply to » AdaGrace » Hmmmmmm..........., posted by 64bowtie on August 20, 2005, at 0:11:40
I know the feeling so well, lovey.. I wish I didn't feel this way either. I start by hating what I do, hating what I feel and what I think, knowing it's bad for me and bad for others, but unable to stop because it's such an old habit, a way of being, but somehow seeing everything in the black, that I'm a stupid fool, a needy child, is so familiar and it's hard not to do that. I act needy, then, and I can't get things done, I'm disorganized and my thoughts are a jumble and all I want is to cuddle and cozy with the man I think I'm in love with... and I'm not in love, I can only love me, and it's impossible to do.
And I hate him for rejecting me, and I hate me for rejecting myself.
Sometimes, I can turn the hate around, and I can talk to myself, and I can say, no I LOVE him, I LOVE me, and it works, for a little bit.
I wish there was a way to erase all the old messages. There is. We need the courage to change, Adagrace.
Take care, sweet woman.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 22, 2005, at 8:12:22
In reply to Re: I Hate You » AdaGrace, posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 22:48:24
I often wonder if that is my problem.
I blame, I hate, I revert back to self loathing, and it's a vicious cycle.
Do I prefer to ride the merry-go-round instead of the roller coaster?
Dunno, just know that I am the product of me. Seems to me it ought to be easy to stop once you recognize the problem.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 22, 2005, at 8:21:22
In reply to » AdaGrace » Hmmmmmm..........., posted by 64bowtie on August 20, 2005, at 0:11:40
You are a man. Yes?
It seems interesting that you as well as a few other men in my life lately have the power, (or say they have the power) to control their emotions.
I don't know how to do that.
I've been told I am too emotional.
I've been told that feelings and emotions can be controlled. The interesting thing is, this man, this person in my life who told me how unstable my emotional state was, and how he controls his, and blah blah freakin blah. But what he didn't say was that the one emotion he was unable to control was his anger and hatred. When cornered about his miss steps and rude hurtful behavior, his anger abounds. Isn't that interesting?
"You do this, which causes me to do this."
"I wouldn't have to say or do those things if you would behave"So, my purpose of my post to you is this, do women really have less power to control their emotions than men?
Is is really true that men "hold it all inside"?
Until it explodes in anger.
I dunno, but I want to. I feel the need to understand why. Why cannot some men say, "I'm sorry", "I hope","I love", "I feel"
Posted by AdaGrace on August 22, 2005, at 8:40:40
In reply to Re: Hi AdaGrace, posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2005, at 10:59:21
Susan, you have a powerful understanding of yourself and me.
I see you struggle with this and I say to myself....."She knows better. She is such a beautiful, powerful, special person. And she by God should know better than to feel so down about herself."
And yet, I turn around and do the same d*mn thing.
The ability to hate and blame, turns the focus off of myself. And in that, I survive. It's a shield of armor I adorn myself with in order to protect my fragile self esteem.
And yet, I know better.
How does one regain self-esteem? Or gain it for that matter? It appears I never had it, so I can't regain it, I have to gain it.
How does a person learn to feel good about themselves?
A therapist? By making lists of "things I did this week that I felt good about?" That is crap. I mean really, it is to me.
What have we become? What has this country, this world for that matter, done to us. What have women done to ourselves? We gained power, prestige, respect (or so we thought), and we lost ourselves. Were we meant to be this way? Did God want us to lose ourselves by being super women? Being a mother, a wife, a soul provider, and also a corporate guru. Was it necessary for us to know how to starve ourselves to fit int a bunny foo foo outfit to please a man? To get a job to suplement the family income only for it to eventually be the only income available to the household? To know when it was a serious enough injury to take the kid to the hospital? To know where the man put his watch or his clean underwear? And also to unplug the toilet, fix the sink leak, change the oil in our cars?
What was the turning point in my marriage where I felt used for my intelligence and ability to bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, clean the pan, but not eat the bacon because it will put five more pounds on my bulbous behind?
Is this the perfect example of "the more capable you are, the more is asked of you, and the more you accomodate, the more you will be taken advantage of, until eventually it's just an empty shell standing there, saying "I don't want to be the queen"
Is it no wonder I feel like crap about myself, my life, and my stupid way of helping others take advantage of me?
I am woman hear me moan.
Posted by ClearSkies on August 22, 2005, at 12:28:46
In reply to Re: Hi AdaGrace » Susan47, posted by AdaGrace on August 22, 2005, at 8:40:40
My self esteem took its tumble after my first marriage ended after 18 years. Seems like I held it all together for so long and when I finally hurled myself away from it, I became seriously unglued.
I could list the issues I have with my self esteem, but I think I've shared them them with you, AdaGrace, in the past. Now I am at the point where, yes - I really do have to count the stupid little piddly stuff I manage to achieve in a day and try to give myself credit for it in my attempt to build my esteem.I don't think I ever had it in the first place. I certainly never had any sense of it from my parents. I was encouraged by my teachers at school, but when that isn't supported at home, the validation crumbles there too.
So I am doing this for the first time, realistically. I have to do this for myself because it was never done for me as an infant or a child; and I don't believe I will achieve a true recovery until I have accomplished it.It's not stupid, or a product of our society. It's necessary for us to become entire, whole human beings. I believe part of that process is leaving behind what tears us down; whether it's a demeaning job or an unsupportive or abusive partner. Otherwise it's a slow and very painful way to starve ourselves.
ClearSkies
Posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2005, at 2:26:25
In reply to Re: Do I chose to be a Victim? » alexandra_k, posted by AdaGrace on August 22, 2005, at 8:12:22
> I blame, I hate, I revert back to self loathing, and it's a vicious cycle.
Yeah. I have a tendancy to do that too...
> Do I prefer to ride the merry-go-round instead of the roller coaster?The roller coaster?
How is that different?> Dunno, just know that I am the product of me. Seems to me it ought to be easy to stop once you recognize the problem.
Heh heh yeah.
But its not.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 23, 2005, at 3:06:11
In reply to » AdaGrace » Hmmmmmm..........., posted by 64bowtie on August 20, 2005, at 0:11:40
» AdaGrace »
Hope? I hope! Hurt? I hurt! Love? I love!
Sorry? Hmmmm..... How about, "I made a mistake and I was wrong and I obviously hurt your feelings... Don't forgive me and I won't insult you by my bad feelings of sorrow... I hereby promise to amend my behavior to never do 'it' again... Please accept my apology..."To say, "I'm sorry..." is an existential statement of how I feel... If you allow me to get away with my bad behavior by my blackmailing you with my tears, I may actually not change anything and do it all again... If, however, I ask you to accept my apology as long as I stick the plan to never do it again, you can be assured that you got your point across to me that I hurt you and you won't tolerate such behavior, especially from someone so close to you...
On another matter; you can't make him feel this way or that unless you have a computer game joystick hooked up to his a$$!!! Likewise, you can't claim he (or anyone else) can make you do anything, either!!! If he performs badly and your feelings get hurt, its still you doing the (hurt) feelings, not the other person... You can still refuse to tolerate bad behavior!!! Believe me!!! I don't/won't tolerate bad bevaior toward me by others... This is not a male trait!!! Its called declaring my boundaries...
I ask your indulgence... I repeat what I shared earlier:
<<< Basically hatred is a wasted emotion I avoid like Ebola, and the flesh-eating-staph-germs...
<<< When I let my gut run my life, I can't stop things that are bad for me either....
There are a whole bunch of emotions... Some worthless ones from my childhood that are a waste of my energy as an adult are:
* hatred
* fear (freezes the feet)
* I should/don't (something imperative)
* obligation/expectation
* dissatisfaction (infantile in origin) leads to grumbling, griping, complaining, and gossip!!!
....just to name a few...Thanx for responding... I do care about you and how this all turns out for you...
Rod
Posted by Declan on August 23, 2005, at 5:45:54
In reply to Re: Do I chose to be a Victim? » alexandra_k, posted by AdaGrace on August 22, 2005, at 8:12:22
That sounds like the idea that we(?) prefer depression isolation and control to freedom and fear.
Declan
Posted by AdaGrace on August 23, 2005, at 16:39:58
In reply to » AdaGrace » ...Sorry...?, posted by 64bowtie on August 23, 2005, at 3:06:11
If you don't point out the hurt. Or don't allow it to hurt you, how do you stop it from happening in the future?
I feel I am at the crossroads of either totally emotionally closing up or boiling over the pot on the stove because my emotions cannot be contained.
I think what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying that to not tollerate the bad behavior I would need to dissassociate myself from the person exibiting the bad behavior... Is that right???
Double hockey sticks, I don't know. If I act the doormat, I am asking to be stepped on. If I forgive the stepper, I am inviting the behavior to return, and if I disclose my displeasure or hurt feelings, I have in essence created the power for them to return. So what the heck do I do? Kick his a$$ out? I am not to give forgiveness in hopes that by letting him know I am hurt, and yet forgiving him, am I not trying to compromise and hope he is in return????????
Jesus, I have no clue.
All I know is it all comes back around full circle. And seems to continue on forever.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 23, 2005, at 16:43:15
In reply to Re: Do I chose to be a Victim? » AdaGrace, posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2005, at 2:26:25
Merry-go-rounds only go around and around in a continual pattern and you get nowhere. Thre is no change of pace, no different scenery.
Rollercoasters, although they make me vomit, at least have ups and downs and turns to mix it up a tad. And in may cases you end up in a different place from where you started....and your stomach does too. (even if it is only a few yards)
Okay, so they both make me dizzy, vomit, and I avoid them like the plague. My analogy is poop. But I guess I am saying what is the difference? I would be giving up one nightmare for another.......
Posted by AdaGrace on August 23, 2005, at 16:47:54
In reply to Re: Do I chose to be a Victim? » AdaGrace, posted by Declan on August 23, 2005, at 5:45:54
I often feel that I do prefer my depression to actual freedom, for in freedom there is change, and change scares the begezus out of me.
It's like how some people like to complain about their medical illnesses or aches and pains, but never go to a doctor to try to remedy the situation. (Like me, for instance. Ha, Ha, isn't that a hoot that I just wrote that?)
Some people are afraid to seek treatment because they fear there is no cure, or viable treatment available.
It makes no difference if it is a mental illness or a physical illness or ailment. It's the what if's that terrify some people.
Then of course there is the underlying fear that there really isn't anything wrong with me, I am just imagining that there is.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 23, 2005, at 16:48:54
In reply to Re: Do I chose to be a Victim?, posted by AdaGrace on August 23, 2005, at 16:43:15
the blank one above is for you.
Posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 17:54:25
In reply to Re: Do I chose to be a Victim?, posted by AdaGrace on August 23, 2005, at 16:43:15
The stuff you say and the way you feel is just so spookily (is that a word) true for me too.
But worse, I have seen how it can be different, I have felt how it can be different, but I can't seem to hang on to it, damn it, damn it, damn it. Boy I get so angry at me and then it starts.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 24, 2005, at 4:18:57
In reply to How Do You Change Bad Behavior Towards You? » 64bowtie, posted by AdaGrace on August 23, 2005, at 16:39:58
> If you don't point out the hurt. Or don't allow it to hurt you, how do you stop it from happening in the future?
><<< » AdaGrace » I'm trying to answer this all blury-eyed at 1:30 in the morning, but!!! ... Point out the bad behavior, not the 'I hurt'... He can't feel your hurt when you do, so cut to the chase and don't tolerate the bad behavior... If he doesn't offer to make amends, put him in 'the pressure-cooker', put him in jeapardy... Make him feel uneasy until he decides the bad behavior has got to go or he will have to 'pay' for his sins!!! This only works if you trully love him... If your relationship is based on mutual approval because neither of you had healthy loving role models growing up, its much tougher... Said another way, if you only put up with his 'bull' and he only puts up with your 'bull', putting him into jeapardy will only confuse him and give him more reasons to act badly, since his 'bull' isnt being appreciated any more... Is this the type of relationship you have always dreamed about? I hope not...
> I feel I am at the crossroads of either totally emotionally closing up or boiling over the pot on the stove because my emotions cannot be contained.
><<< I hope you don't 'git all blowed-up'! I hope I can say something that can make a difference...
> I think what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying that to not tollerate the bad behavior I would need to dissassociate myself from the person exibiting the bad behavior... Is that right???
><<< Put him in a jeapardy situation (without threats of violence or other coercion)... Let him know you aren't tolerating anymore bad behavior and that he has 'X' amount of time to clean up his mess and then clean up his act!!! If he asks how, tell him to surprize you!!! This forces him to get creative, or maybe, run-like-hell!!! Either way you get rid of the problem... And don't even entertain his t*t-for-tat accusing you of being just as bad as he is... Your conditions you're placing on him are not open for discussion!!! (anything less is no longer jeapardy)
> Double hockey sticks, I don't know. If I act the doormat, I am asking to be stepped on. If I forgive the stepper, I am inviting the behavior to return, and if I disclose my displeasure or hurt feelings, I have in essence created the power for them to return. So what the heck do I do? Kick his a$$ out? I am not to give forgiveness in hopes that by letting him know I am hurt, and yet forgiving him, am I not trying to compromise and hope he is in return????????
><<< I hope I answered this question already...
> Jesus, I have no clue.
>
> All I know is it all comes back around full circle. And seems to continue on forever.
><<< I keep harping on 'habits' as being the very nature of dysfunction... So, the 2 of you have developed a habit; each other!!! You are enmeshed in each others' 'bull'... The 'pop culture' term is codependent... You can keep each other by committing to hard-work, discovery, and divorcing the habit instead of the person... Get a minister or therapist to coach you on how this can be done...
Rod
Posted by AdaGrace on August 24, 2005, at 16:46:47
In reply to Sure you're not my female twin? » AdaGrace, posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 17:54:25
Bite your tongue, do you not know what you are saying????
Another ME???????? Oh the horrific horrors of thoughts about that.
The world could not take it I am sure.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 24, 2005, at 16:48:33
In reply to » AdaGrace » Don't ever give up your power..., posted by 64bowtie on August 24, 2005, at 4:18:57
Or coersion, in which case so far that method hasn't worked either. The men I know, don't generally remember what it was that they did wrong that they couldn't remember or admit to doing wrong in the first place. Hense the repeat.
Oh poop, I give up.
Posted by Damos on August 24, 2005, at 18:27:17
In reply to Re: Horrible aspects of being my twin » Damos, posted by AdaGrace on August 24, 2005, at 16:46:47
ROFL!!! Trust me, you should be way more scared by the thought of being my twin than I yours.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 24, 2005, at 19:44:16
In reply to » AdaGrace » Don't ever give up your power..., posted by 64bowtie on August 24, 2005, at 4:18:57
You might express your hurt to him using "I" statements such as "I feel hurt (or disrespected or angry or neglected...insert feeling word here) when you do X"...(insert behavior here).
Often a person will be more apt to change a behavior when the "injured party" directly expresses the injury and links it directly to the behavior.
And if he asks you how he can change, instead of asking him to "surprise you" as Rod suggested, I would recommend you tell him exactly what you need and want, and what you will not tolerate. He can't read your mind, and he may need to be "shaped" into change. This is something you could work on together and possibly with the help of a marital counselor.
Take care,
gg
Posted by 64bowtie on August 24, 2005, at 22:24:57
In reply to Re: Sounds like another form of punishment » 64bowtie, posted by AdaGrace on August 24, 2005, at 16:48:33
Giving a time limit is a boundary, not a punishment...
Rod
Posted by AdaGrace on August 25, 2005, at 16:36:31
In reply to On the other hand..., posted by gardenergirl on August 24, 2005, at 19:44:16
Well that's all fine and good, but when i do that, he just says, "Well I wouldn't of had to do that or act that way if you hadn't of caused it" blah, blah, blah,blah..........
Posted by 64bowtie on August 26, 2005, at 2:54:06
In reply to Re: On the other hand... » gardenergirl, posted by AdaGrace on August 25, 2005, at 16:36:31
> Well that's all fine and good, but when i do that, he just says, "Well I wouldn't of had to do that or act that way if you hadn't of caused it" blah, blah, blah,blah..........
><<< Like I said before, you are not responsible for causing his action unless you wire his b**t up to a Nintendo game console or a computer joystick, such that you move the controls and he jumps around........ That is the only 'CAUSE-AND-EFFECT' available to 2 people, and its illegal! It's illegal to wire up your boyfriend to a Nintendo unit; tell 'im that!!!
Rod
Posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 8:00:30
In reply to Work on boundaries........ patiently..... please » AdaGrace, posted by 64bowtie on August 26, 2005, at 2:54:06
Posted by gardenergirl on August 26, 2005, at 15:17:46
In reply to Re: On the other hand... » gardenergirl, posted by AdaGrace on August 25, 2005, at 16:36:31
Then reply "You are responsible for your own behavior. If I could cause your behavior, believe me, I'd cause you to act very differently."
And if he continues, use fogging ("I understand how it might feel that way to you.") and broken record ("But you are responsible for your own behavior.") to keep him on the topic. And set a limit for what you will and will not tolerate. The hard part then, is following through with that limit.
And I know this is all easy for me to write. It's much harder in the moment. Is this something you can work on with your T, if you have one?
gg
Posted by 64bowtie on August 28, 2005, at 3:33:31
In reply to Re: On the other hand... » AdaGrace, posted by gardenergirl on August 26, 2005, at 15:17:46
> "...If I could cause your behavior, believe me, I'd cause you to act very differently."
>GG, WOW!!!
<<< That's really a much better way to say what I've been saying... I've been using the 'joystick' analogy. But you connect the dots by saying, "If I could cause your behavior (as you claim I do), believe me, I'd cause you to behave very differently (than this lame way you report is my fault)" rightfully so, puts their awareness in jeopardy... They can't weasle-out by blaming us for their actions anymore... I love it and will use it from now on... Thanx, mucho gusto...
Rod
PS: Ada take note... (((GG))) has given us a magnificent tool...
Posted by Susan47 on August 30, 2005, at 10:39:48
In reply to Re: Hi AdaGrace » Susan47, posted by AdaGrace on August 22, 2005, at 8:40:40
"The ability to hate and blame turns the focus off myself"
paraphrased, is what you said.
AG you KNOW that isn't true, you know that the ability to hate and blame is as strong as the ability to love and forgive, and the focus is always, ALWAYS completely ON yourself even when you think it isn't. The thoughts you think about others are the thoughts that come back to haunt your own self-esteem; your feelings about others are really projections of your feelings about yourself. It's true, what gurus of spirituality and the mind have been saying for thousands of years is absolutely true.
If you hate and blame others and the only way for you to stop doing that is to not be with those people, honey you must not be with them anymore. I believe truly that it's a matter of your life or... death, spiritual, emotional dying.
Is that what you want for yourself the rest of your life? You need to choose, hon'.
This is the end of the thread.
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