![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by fairywings on July 27, 2005, at 21:43:17
In reply to Re: porn? Attn all single babble women! » fairywings, posted by Damos on July 27, 2005, at 17:22:55
>
> Damn it FW, ya nearly made me coat my screen in coffee. Wish I could believe I was the Damos people seem to see. In all honesty, just being a half decent friend is about the best I can manage without making a right mess of things. But thanks.
LOL I think sometimes it's easier to see the real person inside when one can be completely honest because of the annonimity of cyberspace.
I'm sure you'd be the best of friends, which is the best way to start out before you become lovers with someone.fairywings
Posted by alexandra_k on July 27, 2005, at 22:11:00
In reply to Re: porn? » alexandra_k, posted by Mal on July 27, 2005, at 21:07:12
> I am so glad to know someone else doesn't get it.
and so am I :-)
>I just think about the PERSON in the photo or movie... That is someone's son/daughter/brother/sister. And if you have ever looked at biographies of some porn stars, a lot of them seem to be miserable.
yeah. i don't think most people think about that. if they did... they couldn't do it. or maybe thats just my hope. that if they did think about it that way then they couldn't do it. but maybe thats wrong :-(
but what worries me... is why people don't see it that way. is it because they have never thought of it? what about when people do say stuff like this? is it that they don't want to think about it or what? kind of like how i don't think we should eat animals but i still do... i don't know. i feel sick when i think of what people do sometimes. i know some people rationalise it by quoting the people who say they enjoy being a porn star or whatever. but i wonder how much they reflect on what a wonderful life they lived later. i wonder if on their death bed they still feel the same way. i don't know. i don't know...im fairly liberal - though ive toned it down quite a bit after finding out what some of my limits are. finding out that its not about being a prude its about self respect. self respect is something that i still learn about...
i used to get into the 'friendly sex' thing... if i waited till i got married or was in a committed relationship then id still be a virgin and probably would be on my death bed... so i went into the friendly sex thing. and it was fairly much okay. i felt okay about it mostly. learned about my limits with self respect though. and then i noticed... that sometimes it all seemed fine... and at other times i did not feel right about the situation. i did not feel right. and i couldn't predict what the difference was. i didnt'know which way it would go. and i don't think it was that he was any different. it was me.
so i stopped with that.
and i have just realised... that that only worked as well as it did because those guys did want more. they did want to have a proper relationship with me. they just didn't push me there and thought id come around and were accepting when i didn't. one of them told me this the other day. and i realised. that was probably the case with all of them. and its not fair to do that to somebody and i wouldn't have done it if i had known how they really felt. but that was probably what made it feel okay as much as it did. because they did really like me and care about me and respect me.
why does everything have to be so complicated????
sorry for the ramble....
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2005, at 22:13:20
In reply to Re: porn? » Mal, posted by alexandra_k on July 26, 2005, at 21:54:02
My experience is those home-made pics never look extremely flattering.. unless there's a good photographer around. You know what I'd do? What I've always been tempted to do but never had the nerve, maybe you do .. have a professional photographer take intimate, glamorous photos of you and give them to hubby as a gift. Because the home-made kind can haunt you, in my experience anyway. I don't like being objectified, and that's how it feels to me. But the professional, intimate, flattering photos.. those can be beautiful.
Posted by Mal on July 28, 2005, at 7:38:26
In reply to Re: porn? » Mal, posted by alexandra_k on July 27, 2005, at 22:11:00
>
> yeah. i don't think most people think about that. if they did... they couldn't do it. or maybe thats just my hope. that if they did think about it that way then they couldn't do it. but maybe thats wrong :-(
> but what worries me... is why people don't see it that way. is it because they have never thought of it? what about when people do say stuff like this? is it that they don't want to think about it or what? kind of like how i don't think we should eat animals but i still do...Yeah, my husband and I have talked about it. I have pointed this out to him, asked him how he would like people looking at his sister like that. He responds something glib like, "THat isn't my sister, and my sister wouldn't do that. And besides, this is the way they earn their living." Your meat-eating analogy is probably about right, but I don't even think most people who "consume" porn think they shouldn't.
> im fairly liberal - though ive toned it down quite a bit after finding out what some of my limits are. finding out that its not about being a prude its about self respect. self respect is something that i still learn about...
>Thanks. SOmetimes I feel like I am too reserved. He tells me some of his fantasies and I just have to say,"NO WAY." But it IS really about self respect.
> i used to get into the 'friendly sex' thing... if i waited till i got married or was in a committed relationship then id still be a virgin and probably would be on my death bed... so i went into the friendly sex thing. and it was fairly much okay.
I went through a period of engaging in "friendly sex". Not the first time I had sex, but a couple of years afterward. It was never with "casual" friends, always with a guy I had a pretty intense friendship with. ANd like you, it was OK a lot of the time. But I was always the one who cared more, and would have gotten serious if the guy was interested. ANd so I was always the one who at least got disappointed, if not downright hurt. But I was very inexperienced then, and didn't enjoy the physicality of it as much then. It would have been MUCH more difficult and complicated, I think, if I had been more mature.
Thanks,
MAL
Posted by Mal on July 28, 2005, at 7:43:05
In reply to Mal » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2005, at 22:13:20
> My experience is those home-made pics never look extremely flattering.. unless there's a good photographer around. You know what I'd do? What I've always been tempted to do but never had the nerve, maybe you do .. have a professional photographer take intimate, glamorous photos of you and give them to hubby as a gift. Because the home-made kind can haunt you, in my experience anyway. I don't like being objectified, and that's how it feels to me. But the professional, intimate, flattering photos.. those can be beautiful.
YOu are right. I don't have much of a problem with tastful nudes, but I don't think I have the confidence to do it myself. Besides, I don't think tasteful nudes is what he had in mind! LOL But that might be a good thing to try sometime- a little fantasy play where we do some tasteful stuff. He is actually a good photographer, it is just that we don't have a lot of good props- luxurious curtains or fancy chaise lounges...
THanks,
MAL
Posted by Declan on July 28, 2005, at 16:33:53
In reply to Re: porn? » Mal, posted by alexandra_k on July 27, 2005, at 20:48:54
It's interesting this object thing. Sometimes, perhaps not often, people (me) like to be objectified. I'm not really sure what is meant by 'objectified', but if it means treated as an object might be treated (owned, possessed, and whatever else) then it's in the spectrum of human sexuality. Don't suppose that says much though, anything is in the spectrum of human sexuality. Nothing to do with porn though, one way or the other.
Declan
Posted by Mal on July 28, 2005, at 17:48:50
In reply to objectification, posted by Declan on July 28, 2005, at 16:33:53
> It's interesting this object thing. Sometimes, perhaps not often, people (me) like to be objectified. I'm not really sure what is meant by 'objectified', but if it means treated as an object might be treated (owned, possessed, and whatever else) then it's in the spectrum of human sexuality. Don't suppose that says much though, anything is in the spectrum of human sexuality. Nothing to do with porn though, one way or the other.
> Declan
Declan, it IS interesting... I am a mildly jealous type. I don't make accusations or follow him around, I'm just aware that good men are hard to find, and that someone else may notice my good man and not care that he is married. My husband, on the other hand, claims NOT to be. I have never seen the first hint of jealousy, but I haven't given him any reasons to be jealous, either.I guess this would fall under the heading of being objectified, but I wish he was a LITTLE jealous- you know, to make me feel like he doesn't want to lose me, or that I am the only woman he would even THINK of being with... But I don't get that kind of ego stroke from him. I don't know whether his non-jealous attitude should be taken as a compliment or insult!
mal
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 28, 2005, at 21:41:23
In reply to Re: porn? » Damos, posted by cockeyed on July 27, 2005, at 20:32:56
> Yo, Dude, you got a problem.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Jimmy Go on July 30, 2005, at 18:11:28
In reply to Re: porn?, posted by alexandra_k on July 26, 2005, at 21:57:04
The next time she gives me some I should probably photograph it so I will remember what it looks like. Another way to look at it is that most men only photograph things they are proud of and have conquered, like a big fish. I would take a picture of mine but they haven't invented a big enough wide angle lens yet.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2005, at 18:33:54
In reply to Re: Mal » Susan47, posted by Mal on July 28, 2005, at 7:43:05
If he's a good photographer get him to experiment with light. And black and white shots. You might love the way it makes you look. Maybe try outdoors, with shadow and trees or something .. water ... make up your face, if your hair is long let it play with your body, and you might find you and hubby actually loving the sessions as much as the photos that result. Just an idea, I don't think you need props if you have the skill and the imagination, you know? I'll bet he wouldn't mind experimenting. And every day that goes by you're getting older, I should take my own advice but I simply have no one to do this with. You're fortunate, take advantage of it!
Posted by Jimmy Go on July 30, 2005, at 18:54:40
In reply to Re: porn?, posted by Jimmy Go on July 30, 2005, at 18:11:28
I would take a picture of mine but they haven't invented a big enough wide angle lens yet.
On second thought this statement was inappropriate and mostly wishful thinking. The size of a man's heart is always more important than the size of anything else. My dry sense of humor and failure to think before I talk or type keeps me in trouble all the time. My mouth and my ego may be bigger than my ...
Posted by alexandra_k on July 30, 2005, at 21:18:31
In reply to objectification, posted by Declan on July 28, 2005, at 16:33:53
I think that being owned, possessed etc is part of being objectified.
I think the crucial point is that typically objects do not have thoughts, feelings, desires, etc of their own.
We can use objects and do whatever we feel like with them and we aren't hurting anyone. It is thought to be wrong to treat people as objects because it is thought to be disrespectful to ignore their thoughts feelings desires etc.
I guess sometimes we do wish that another person would just be there and be responsive to our own wish fulfillment. Interesting fantasy... But IRL... I think it is wrong to treat / view people as objects. Because they have preferences too...
Does this make sense?
What do you think?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 30, 2005, at 22:47:31
In reply to Re: objectification » Declan, posted by alexandra_k on July 30, 2005, at 21:18:31
...and that thats whats wrong with porn. because it presents people as objects. as sex objects. and people think about doing whatever they want to them. not *with* then but *to* them. they can say 'do this do that' and they will just do whatever is asked like a mechanical doll...
...or that they will actually like it. that they dont have any thoughts feelings preferences needs desires of their own. they are solely existing to do whatever they are ordered to.
and then the danger is that that is one thing in fantasy...
it is another thing entirely when people start relating to people in the world in that way.
and some people do. some people do. and i wonder whether society doesn't condone it a little too much and then we wonder why these attitudes are so prevalent.and it amuses me... that my druggie mates. a fair few of them. used to be involved with pro's. used to go see pro's. i remember a conversation i had with one of them... he was telling me that she enjoyed it. that she actually enjoyed sleeping with him for money. i said 'did you go back and ask for her specifically next time?' and he said 'yup'.
and that amuses me because of course a good pro is going to be a master at pretending that they like it. of course they are. and he fell for that. and i told him that i thought it was an act... and he was most upset.and i guess it is things like that that make men feel mad that woman are artful and lying and manipulating and shallow and just in need of a good smacking around.
and it breaks my heart that people support the industry
and dont see anything wrong with it.
it breaks my heart the women who are trapped there
some of them not even realising
(the money drugs cars are good who wants to be a movie star???)
and its an expression of a fundamental sickness in society...
but what really makes me feel sad is what people are supposed to do otherwise.
over here there are organisations like community living trust who look after people who are severely mentally handicapped etc. they take them to pros every now and then. to calm them down. otherwise it can be hard to stop them playing with themselves / each other in public and so on...and when people dont have mental pictures then what are they supposed to do?
i do have some sympathy.
but more for the girls
more for the girls
and i just feel a bit ill...but we aren't really so very far from the animals...
i just feel sad is all.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 31, 2005, at 9:44:12
In reply to Re: objectification, posted by alexandra_k on July 30, 2005, at 22:47:31
sorry, that was a lot of a rant...
i guess i just have a few issues around this stuff.
but i should't make assumptions about people or about their reasons or whatever.
sorry.
Posted by Mal on July 31, 2005, at 10:01:06
In reply to Re: porn?, posted by Jimmy Go on July 30, 2005, at 18:54:40
> I would take a picture of mine but they haven't invented a big enough wide angle lens yet.
>
> On second thought this statement was inappropriate and mostly wishful thinking. The size of a man's heart is always more important than the size of anything else. My dry sense of humor and failure to think before I talk or type keeps me in trouble all the time. My mouth and my ego may be bigger than my ...
LOL, that is OK, Jimmy. You are right- the size of a man's heart is most important.
Posted by Tamar on July 31, 2005, at 18:25:08
In reply to porn?, posted by Mal on July 26, 2005, at 20:47:00
Interesting thread!
My two cents: I don't see that taking pictures of yourself and possibly your husband is the same thing as porn. Not as long as it's for your own personal use, anyway.
To be honest, I find porn very arousing and I used to watch it a lot, but now but I don't own it or buy it because I really hate the way women are depicted as victims. So much of it is either overtly violent or uses implied violent imagery. (That stuff doesn't turn me on at all.) But even the less offensive stuff is produced in a way that I find very problematic.
However, I have no problem with making photos or videos of me and my husband. I don't believe he would show them to anyone or put them on the net. I just don't think he'd want anyone to see his wife's c*nt, to put it bluntly. I don't think it's porn.
The bottom line is that if you don't feel comfortable with it, you shouldn't be expected to do it, and you shouldn't feel guilty or uncomfortable about refusing.
On the other hand... would you be at all interested in having a photo of your husband naked and aroused?
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on July 31, 2005, at 19:12:48
In reply to Re: porn? » Mal, posted by Tamar on July 31, 2005, at 18:25:08
LOL.
Thats interesting because I was trying to think of how there could be a good use for this kind of thing... And I agree. There could be a good use for this kind of thing. A good use where nobody gets hurt
Posted by Mal on August 1, 2005, at 7:46:05
In reply to Re: porn? » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on July 31, 2005, at 19:12:48
Oh, I do agree that private pics/movies of a couple (not viewed or shared with anyone else) are not porn. I didn't mean to give that impression, really. ANd if both parties are wholly comfortable with it, it is no business of mine or anyone else's! But I am just not comfortable with it myself, and felt a little guilty for refusing.
As for wanting a pic of my husband naked and aroused, not really. He is very handsome, with a great body, but I really don't feel the need to have his naked image on film (or digital). Really, visual images of the "business end" of things doesn't do a lot for me. I may regret it one day when we are both old and saggy, though! LOL
Thanks, and have a great day!
MAL
Posted by Susan47 on August 1, 2005, at 12:55:37
In reply to Re: objectification, posted by alexandra_k on July 31, 2005, at 9:44:12
Don't apologize. What you said about porn, about sex without relationship, what that does to people, is true. It's the same with gratuitous violence, the objectification of people as punching bags, and gore, the objectification of people as pull-apart dolls ... we are so NOT any of those things, and it's just stupid and dangerous that we allow ourselves to be put down in those ways, and that's man.. stupid and dangerous. That's the animal.
Posted by Declan on August 1, 2005, at 16:24:41
In reply to Re: objectification » Declan, posted by alexandra_k on July 30, 2005, at 21:18:31
Sometimes people wish to lose themselves and want what the person they love wants. It's not imposed, but a voluntary surrender.
But how much objectification? Most people don't want to be owned, but some do.
We humans sometimes want to merge with each other and not only physically. If your preferrence in real life is to leave behind yourself and become part of the other.......
That's the sort of thing that makes sexuality different to the rest of life, and gives us complicated feelings about it.Actually this could go on the faith board, because it seems like the same stuff. I really *don't* mean to be provocative but in the lovely words of the old anglican communion service....
'We do not presume to come to this thy table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs from under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord, whose property is always to have mercy: grant us therefore gracious Lord, so as to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us.'What do you think of that? Strange and wonderful, eh?
Food for thought, I dunno if I've made myself clear.
Declan
Posted by Tamar on August 1, 2005, at 19:48:05
In reply to Tamar and Alexandra, posted by Mal on August 1, 2005, at 7:46:05
> Oh, I do agree that private pics/movies of a couple (not viewed or shared with anyone else) are not porn. I didn't mean to give that impression, really. ANd if both parties are wholly comfortable with it, it is no business of mine or anyone else's! But I am just not comfortable with it myself, and felt a little guilty for refusing.
I think it's important to be able to say no to things we don't want. There are things my partner would like to do that I don't want to do. I'd like to be able to accommodate him, but I just can't. But yes, I do feel a little bit guilty that I can't give him that particular thing he wants. So I think I can understand where you're coming from.
> As for wanting a pic of my husband naked and aroused, not really. He is very handsome, with a great body, but I really don't feel the need to have his naked image on film (or digital). Really, visual images of the "business end" of things doesn't do a lot for me. I may regret it one day when we are both old and saggy, though! LOL
I suppose response to visual things can be a very individual matter. It's funny how things that work for one person leave another person cold.
> Thanks, and have a great day!
You too.
Tamar
Posted by Mal on August 2, 2005, at 5:34:05
In reply to Re: Tamar and Alexandra » Mal, posted by Tamar on August 1, 2005, at 19:48:05
I am glad to know you understand where I am coming from. This is stuff I just can't talk to my IRL friends about.
IT IS funny about what turns different people on... I very much like to be touched a certain way, looked at a certain way- as Olympia Dukakis (or was it Shirley Maclaine?) said in Steel Magnolias, "That melts my butter." But images, not so much. I do get a small physical "charge" out of images, but I don't feel good about it. I guess somewhere very deep in my psyche, I feel that explicit nudity/the sex act is very private, and I feel like a dirty voyeur for having even the reflex-type reaction to seeing it. Even when in photos it is obvious that the subject knows he/she is being photographed. Does that make any sense at all? I really want my sexual experiences to be all about ME, (OK, and him a little, too (jk)).
Another problem I have with porn is that I think it tells people that this is how sex is supposed to be, and if you aren't doing this/that/the other, you aren't doing it right, or having a good time. How would everyone's sex life be different if they only had their own real life experiences to draw from? Sure, everyone has their own fantasies, but as far as actual images, they only have personal experiences... Maybe our sex lives would be more boring. Or maybe they would be more natural and wholesome... Or maybe there would be very little difference.
ANd then there is the whole body image thing. I am a little insecure about my husband looking at the beautiful women who are willing to DO ALL THAT (for $$, of course), and then looking at me with my many physical flaws who ISN'T willing to do ALL that... By comparison I know how I must look.
Well that turned into a rant.
MAL
Posted by caraher on August 2, 2005, at 14:22:54
In reply to Re: Tamar and Alexandra » Tamar, posted by Mal on August 2, 2005, at 5:34:05
> ANd then there is the whole body image thing. I am a little insecure about my husband looking at the beautiful women who are willing to DO ALL THAT (for $$, of course), and then looking at me with my many physical flaws who ISN'T willing to do ALL that... By comparison I know how I must look.
If he's anything like me he's not comparing. I understand feeling insecure about physical flaws but when I'm with my wife I focus my attention on what I see and feel that I *like*. And I think that's a pretty general "strategy" for maximizing enjoyment! (For enjoying *anything* - the one who picks at every minor flaw is known as a "killjoy" for a good reason.)
Then there's the "doing ALL THAT" factor. Sure, for the right price (or because of coercion in any of the many forms it can take in the sex industry) she'll perform certain physical acts before a camera. But even at our most animalistic we men have emotions as well, and know there's a world of difference between a mercenary (or victim) performing an act because she sees it as advantageous and less "spectacular" ones performed out of love.
And even at the most base level, at most porn gives him sound and a two-dimensional image of that woman. You are there in 3-D and more, body and soul, scent and touch, reacting to him in so many ways... there's no competition! It's the difference between eating a home-cooked meal and flipping through a culinary arts magazine!
Posted by Mal on August 2, 2005, at 14:30:14
In reply to Re: Tamar and Alexandra, posted by caraher on August 2, 2005, at 14:22:54
> If he's anything like me he's not comparing. I understand feeling insecure about physical flaws but when I'm with my wife I focus my attention on what I see and feel that I *like*. And I think that's a pretty general "strategy" for maximizing enjoyment! (For enjoying *anything* - the one who picks at every minor flaw is known as a "killjoy" for a good reason.)
>
> Then there's the "doing ALL THAT" factor. Sure, for the right price (or because of coercion in any of the many forms it can take in the sex industry) she'll perform certain physical acts before a camera. But even at our most animalistic we men have emotions as well, and know there's a world of difference between a mercenary (or victim) performing an act because she sees it as advantageous and less "spectacular" ones performed out of love.
>
> And even at the most base level, at most porn gives him sound and a two-dimensional image of that woman. You are there in 3-D and more, body and soul, scent and touch, reacting to him in so many ways... there's no competition! It's the difference between eating a home-cooked meal and flipping through a culinary arts magazine!I had to laugh out loud at that great analogy! ANd yes, I know men can be sensitive and emotional. My husband isn't critical of me, other than gentle remarks meant to help me be a better or healthier person. All your points are perfect ones- no arguments here. But that isn't to say I'll never be self conscious again...
As always, your reply was thoughtful and tactful and articulate.
Thanks,
MAL
Posted by 10derHeart on August 3, 2005, at 2:43:15
In reply to Re: porn? Attn all single babble women! » fairywings, posted by Damos on July 27, 2005, at 17:22:55
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Relationships | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.