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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by maggie1970 on June 23, 2005, at 13:35:08
I met someone over a year ago. We became great friends. I knew soon after he was having trouble in his marriage, because when we got to know each other a little, he told me a little bit. He also looked sick, bags under his eyes, lost a lot of weight. Anyway, we became better friends and he told me more about what was going on, and I told him what was going on in my life, dating. He actually tried a few times for me to meet someone! Anyway, he told me that for years and years, she had not wanted to touch him, not wanted to be together, never wanted to hold hands, sit near each other on the couch, never be intimate (he told me this awhile after we got to know each other). They went to marriage counseling, and individual counseling. Neither worked. He had wanted to leave many times, he told me, because he tried to talk to her many times about how he wanted to be closer, to communicate, to be affectionate, and she told him she didn't want or need that. He stayed though because of their child, and doesn't know if he did the right thing, but he stayed until she was ready to go to college. Last summer I told him to try counseling with her again, and he talked to her. She told him just to go on prozac, and that she was fine with the way things were. They had several more conversations like this, he began prozac, the daughter left for college, and they had one last conversation one night where he told her he needed affection, intimacy, communication and love. She told him she was the way she was, and things were good for her the way they were. He finally told her then that it wasn't for him, and he had to leave. It was terrible. He called me crying, told me it was over, and they agreed there was nothing left to do but divorce. She served him once she had a lawyer, and they began hashing it all out.
After a little while, he told me he had come to care for me a great deal and that I had been very caring, and he had never met anyone who actually wanted to communicate with him, and listen. He had been the same with me when I talked to him about trouble with men, trouble with my family, he always listened. He asked me if I wanted to go to dinner. Yes, bells and whistles went off about a rebounding man. But what was worse was, I began to wonder, how long did he feel that way about me? We got to know each other more. He was off the medication, looked a lot better, gained some weight, no bags under his eyes, and smiling. After I felt comfortable I finally told him I was freaking out. Did I have anything to do with your marriage ending? He told me, No! It was over a long time ago, I tried and tried, but she told me over and over and over, things were not going to change, that they would always stay her way, and that once his daughter left, he finally felt it was okay to begin his life again.
So then I ask him again maybe two weeks later. Then another two weeks. I begin obsessing. My mother and father are extreme Catholics. If they knew he wasn't divorced yet (divorced is bad enough in their eyes!) they would be so angry. But more than that, I am still saying to myself, you are guilty, you are guilty.
Finally after some time he tells me and I begin to believe him that no, he wouldn't be with her, even if we hadn't met. He began counseling about two months ago, an incredible counselor, who thinks that his decision was great, and that he has finally found someone who wants to communicate, and he is still learning how because he is not used to someone wanting to (which is difficult). So she tells him to continue trying to work things out with me, be direct because I want him to, and communicate, and that it is finally what we both wanted in a mate. I couldn't find someone better suited for me.
But I cannot seem to live with this guilt. What if they got back together? He says there was no way. She were never affectionate (which he loves, always wants to hold hands, snuggle, which I love too), and not to mention lack of intimacy. So when I think of that I think, okay, maybe it wasn't me, he really was miserable. He was sickly looking before I met him, he went into work at 6:30 just to get out of the house before I knew him, all of these things.
But the guilt is still here after all this time. The guilt is so bad, I have been hating myself, I can hear myself calling myself names like my mother used to call me when I was younger, I've been self-injurious, I've been irritable. I feel worthless. Suicidal.
Can you get over guilt? I even thought of leaving, even though I have no clue if his feelings for me made him leave faster, but then I thought, even if I leave, I still will feel guilty. So how, how, how do you get rid of, or learn to live with this vicious guilt? I feel so disgusting, worthless. Is there anything I can do? I feel like everyone who reads this is going to hate me as much as I do, and I so scared to hit the button. But I'm going to. Because I'm frightened sitting here alone too.
Posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 14:47:03
In reply to Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me down?, posted by maggie1970 on June 23, 2005, at 13:35:08
Hello maggie,
I read your post and the one thing I don’t quite understand is why you feel so much guilt. Do you know why you might feel so guilty?
This is what I understood from your post. You met a person; you became friends with him. Like all genuine friendships, you discussed your personal lives. Your friend’s marriage was deeply unhappy. Your friend tried every possible way of resolving his marriage problems but his wife was unwilling to give him what he needed. Their marriage was certainly over before you met him, even though they’re not yet divorced.
His friendship-love for you has deepened into something romantic. You seem to love him too. For a very long time his needs have not been met; but now, here you are making him happy. What’s to feel guilty about?
Is it that you hold yourself responsible for the breakdown of his marriage? I can’t believe it could be your fault. There are three things that might have happened that I can imagine you might feel guilty about:
1. If you thought he was attracted to you while he was still married you might feel guilty.
2. If you were attracted to him while he was still married you might feel guilty.
3. If you were intimate or flirtatious with him while he was still married you might feel guilty.If he was attracted to you, well, welcome to the world of men. Lots of men feel attracted to lots of women lots of the time. It is not a leading cause of marital breakdown; if it were, no one would bother to get married.
If you were attracted to him, well, that’s just part of being a woman. Just like men notice women, women notice men. It’s basic biology and nothing to be ashamed of. Mere attraction is not enough to cause a divorce.
Even if you were intimate or flirtatious with him, I would still argue that it wasn’t your fault his marriage broke up. The reason for the breakup was that he and his wife wanted different things, but he showed the depth of his commitment to his marriage by trying everything to keep it together. I don’t think you could have caused the breakup even if you’d tried! (Of course I’m not saying that I think you tried.)
I really think your guilt is misplaced. I find it impossible to believe you are a wicked person; quite the contrary, I think it is wonderful that you are able to give this man the affection he’s been missing for so long. There is no way they will get back together; she doesn’t want him and I doubt he would want to go back to a loveless marriage.
He did everything he could have done to save his marriage, but she didn’t want him. You both deserve some happiness. Why not find it with each other?
Tamar
Posted by maggie1970 on June 23, 2005, at 15:20:04
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me down? » maggie1970, posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 14:47:03
Tamar,
thank you so much. You couldn't have written better words to me. I was frightened to read at first, fearful of what it might say. I don't know where it all stems from, the guilt, the name calling in my head at myself. I feel when I go home and see my family that they are all looking down on me, but they're not. It's me who is looking down on me. No, we were not intimate before they decided to divorce. We were very close friends, never intimate, but I felt at times he felt more than a friend for me. Maybe because I was listening to him. Maybe I feel like I shouldn't have listened? Was it fair to listen to another woman's husband's troubles? Then when I felt he might feel something for me, did I end talking to him? No, I didn't. I remained a friend.
You are right. I know intellectually it was a loveless marriage, and she wouldn't want him back, he wouldn't go back regardless of whether or not I was here. Somehow my guilt, that's been something I've felt throughout my life for little things to bigger things that I've never let myself forgive myself for or forget, it just stays with me making sure I don't feel too good. If I do start to feel good, I seem to think of something bad, and the goodness goes away. I feel like I'm ruining what we have with this obsession about guilt. I wonder if there's some kind of counseling just for guilt? I tried making amends, a karma sort of thing, donations sort of thing. Guilt was still there. I loved what you wrote. I am going to read it again. (Maybe I need to read it once a day at least). Thanks so much.
Posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 18:36:44
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me dow, posted by maggie1970 on June 23, 2005, at 15:20:04
Hi Maggie,
I'm glad you understand intellectually that you are not responsible for his divorce.
> We were very close friends, never intimate, but I felt at times he felt more than a friend for me. Maybe because I was listening to him. Maybe I feel like I shouldn't have listened? Was it fair to listen to another woman's husband's troubles?
But he was your friend. Presumably she had her own friends to talk to. I think it's great that you stuck by him and continued to offer your friendship when he was going through the breakup of his marriage.
> Then when I felt he might feel something for me, did I end talking to him? No, I didn't. I remained a friend.
Good for you. That seems to be the most appropriate response. If you had pushed him away at that point you would have hurt him and lost a friend. There is nothing wrong with his feelings for you - or your feelings for him.
> I wonder if there's some kind of counseling just for guilt?
Yes, I think there is. Your sense of guilt seems so powerful and out-of-proportion to the situation that I really wonder if you should consider doing some counselling or therapy.
If nothing else, your feelings of guilt are interfering with your developing relationship and it would be a shame to let them dominate what should be a joyful time for you. Do you know anyone who can recommend a counsellor or therapist?
I wish you happiness.
Tamar
Posted by Susan47 on June 23, 2005, at 20:14:29
In reply to Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me down?, posted by maggie1970 on June 23, 2005, at 13:35:08
Honestly, guilt is such a monster. What a vicious waste of time, really. Maybe the guilt is telling you you haven't looked at something you think you might've done. Like maybe you were attracted to this man from the very first, but you didn't admit it to anyone, maybe not even to yourself? Because it sounds like you would think it was wrong to be attracted to a married man. I can really understand that, I have that same guilt. Some married men are even more attractive than single ones, but it isn't being married that makes them attractive. You know, I don't think we need to feel responsible because someone we happen to love was married when we met him. Because he's taking full responsibility for his own life, maybe you should just relax and let it happen.
But try for the two-year rule maybe, before you actually make any premanent decisions about the relationship? What do you think?
Posted by crazyteresa on June 23, 2005, at 21:01:02
In reply to Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me down?, posted by maggie1970 on June 23, 2005, at 13:35:08
Hey Maggie,
I'm sorry you're so guilt-ridden. Nobody hates you for what you've written! None of us are perfect and a lot of us have the same issues. I think you were very brave to share all of that.
I'm not in any way belittling the way you feel, I'm just going to suggest a coping skill that works well for me. Ask yourself, "Did I do anything wrong?" or "Will this matter in 10 years?" If the answer is no, let it go! Don't worry about it. There would be no reason for you to hang on to the guilt. Then tell yourself something positive to block out those names you're calling yourself. It may take a while, but it may help you ease up on yourself.
I agree with Tamar about counseling. There may be a deeper issue you need to resolve; your feelings sound very, very intense.
crazy t
Posted by maggie1970 on June 24, 2005, at 11:02:09
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me dow » maggie1970, posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 18:36:44
It's all true. It must be more than this. I've been very self-injurious over this, and I need to see someone. I was seeing a counselor but recently cancelled going. I didn't tell her the truth that we were friends and that we knew each other before they separated, because I felt like she would assume that I had something to do with it and she would judge me. You can't have a good counseling session when you can't be honest. Why couldn't I be honest as I've been here and tell her that we were friends first, and nothing romantic began until after? I guess because I felt that she would think I was a liar. I did not feel anything for him like that in the beginning but maybe it is true, that I did begin to have feelings for him. Okay, this must be it, because I am crying, and feeling tremendous guilt. Hitting the nail on the head. I am admitting finally I had feelings for him before they dissolved anything, and decided to divorce. I guess that makes me feel somehow that it makes it somehow my fault. A liar, and a cheater. I've always been cheated on by all my boyfriends all my life, and it hurts so much, and though we did not ever act on it, I guess I think we knew. He told me if we met a year after his divorce, how would things between us? Will this guilt ruin us? I can't answer that yet. It seems to be, because I am not only injuring myself, but I can tell I am sabotaging this love. I feel like I need to make amends somehow, to right the wrong. Maybe I need to find a counselor today. Thank you so much for writing. Just reading from you that any of you are telling me "it's okay" has made me feel a world better in one day. Thank you so much.
Posted by Tamar on June 24, 2005, at 15:49:35
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me dow, posted by maggie1970 on June 24, 2005, at 11:02:09
I know what you mean about the need to be honest in counselling or therapy. Being less than honest isn’t in our best interests. And counsellors/therapists aren’t there to judge you; they’re there to help you. I don’t think any counsellor would think you did something wrong with your friend.
Yes, maybe you had feelings for him when he was still married. That isn’t a crime. It isn’t immoral. It’s the way we humans are designed. We look at people, we get to know them, and sometimes we develop feelings. The important thing is what we do about those feelings. You said you were never intimate with him while he was still with his wife, and I’m sure all right-thinking people would agree that you played by the rules, since you never acted on those feelings while he was still with his wife. Your feelings for him were not the cause of the lack of love and affection in his marriage. And if he knew how you felt, then that’s a good thing because it gave him some hope of happiness. From everything you said, his marriage was over years ago, before you ever met him. Meeting you must have been such a joy to him. Good for you, that you were able to give him some happiness.
It sounds to me as if you are somewhat afraid of the power of your feelings and your desires. It sounds rather like the way I thought of myself when I used to believe my feelings of attraction were perverted and immoral.
I’m worried when you say you are injuring yourself. Please stay safe. I really think you should find a counsellor or therapist as soon as possible. You don’t deserve all this suffering.
Posted by crazyteresa on June 24, 2005, at 22:53:06
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me dow » maggie1970, posted by Tamar on June 24, 2005, at 15:49:35
Posted by jazzed on June 25, 2005, at 16:29:10
In reply to Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me down?, posted by maggie1970 on June 23, 2005, at 13:35:08
Hi Maggie,
Sounds like what you think your parents feelings would be about the fact that he wasn't divorced when you started seeing him might be contributing to your feelings of guilt? You didn't do anything wrong, so try as best you can not to beat yourself up. Can you see a therapist and try to work through the guilt?
Sounds like this man's wife was very cold toward him, and he had a loveless marriage. Who could live that way unless it works for both. In you he finally found what he longed for, and sounds like you did too. Take it slow and make sure it's the right thing for both.
Good luck!
Jazzy
Posted by maggie1970 on June 29, 2005, at 12:30:17
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me down? » maggie1970, posted by jazzed on June 25, 2005, at 16:29:10
Sorry I didn't write for a few days. I felt so good after reading from you all, I need to reread it. I met with a new doctor who was going to start me on medication, but wanted to get to know me first. It's unlike any other doctor I've been to, nice, but I really wanted to start working on this as soon as I could because it takes so long for the medication to work and I'm too down. So I was so down that I had to wait until our next meeting, I became a little out of it for a bit. Also, my boyfriend's divorce is nearly finalized. They're just setting the date, and even though he is excited to have it done, they were both eager to have it done with and do it quickly, when he told me it was signed and was so excited, I still felt that old sick feeling. I called my counselor and am considering telling her the truth about how I knew him before she served him with the divorce statement, etc... I'm just so scared of what she'll think of me, so I've been avoiding her. I know that's the last thing I need. I need someone to be comforting as you all have been. I feel at home here, and so glad that not only do you not judge me for this, but for being self-injurious as well, something I've learned, some of you are as well. I think in a way, I've found a new family here, which is much healthier. Thanks. On another note, how are all of YOU doing??? :)
Posted by Susan47 on July 2, 2005, at 9:50:20
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me dow, posted by maggie1970 on June 29, 2005, at 12:30:17
I don't remember reading this but I'm wondering if you really want this boyfriend for yourself. Do you? I'm wondering if it's guilt thinking you were partially responsible for their separating, or whether it's just that you don't want to bear the responsibility for being his full-time girlfriend. Some of us do better with part-time relationships.
Posted by Tamar on July 3, 2005, at 17:41:11
In reply to Re: Guilt guilt guilt, should I let it take me dow, posted by maggie1970 on June 29, 2005, at 12:30:17
Hi Maggie,
Sorry, I’ve been off-line for a couple of days. But I do want to reply to you, even though I’m a bit late getting here.
I think it’s in your own best interests to be honest with your counsellor. Counsellors aren’t supposed to be judgmental, and in any case I really don’t think you’ve done anything wrong, so she’d have no reason to judge you.
Counsellors are often comforting, but they’re also usually quite astute about getting to the root of the problem. So she might be able to help you to explore why you feel so guilty about something that wasn’t actually your fault. She might ask you about times you felt guilty in your childhood, or she might help you to think about the thoughts you have when you feel guilty, and explore ways of thinking differently about events in your life that lead to feelings of guilt.
Counselling isn’t always easy, but I think you know that. And I’m sure you have the strength to face your fears and to make significant progress. Ultimately the more honest you feel able to be, the more you will get out of it. We’ve all done a few things we’re not proud of; even counsellors! Talking about it helps us to get these things in perspective. In your case, I hope that counselling will help you to realise that having feelings for a married man is not evil, and did not cause the breakup of his marriage!
Keep posting and let us know how things go.
Tamar
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