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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 32. Go back in thread:
Posted by 64bowtie on November 28, 2004, at 3:13:28
In reply to Dear G, posted by AdaGrace on November 26, 2004, at 17:56:06
Posted by AdaGrace on November 28, 2004, at 9:01:56
In reply to Dear AdaGrace, posted by 64bowtie on November 28, 2004, at 3:09:28
I have hate inside me and it doesn't feel childish. It feels good to vent the rage and say it outloud. I understand what you are saying, just don't agree with it.
Posted by 64bowtie on November 28, 2004, at 18:59:44
In reply to Re: Dear AdaGrace » 64bowtie, posted by AdaGrace on November 28, 2004, at 9:01:56
....if you feel like you can no longer walk because you look down and find your shoelaces tied together by your hate and other stuff you have dragged forward from your childhood, remember I told you so......
Kids don't do good responsibility!
Adults don't do good hate!Rod
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 28, 2004, at 21:11:55
In reply to Re: Dear AdaGrace -- just sayin', posted by 64bowtie on November 28, 2004, at 18:59:44
I'm not in agreement with that theory either, even if I was I think you need to work on your timing.
You'll find people a whole lot more receptive to you if you don't give them unsolicited advice when they are in agony. In real life I want to hit people who do that to me, and that's a fairly typical reaction. If I just stubbed my toe and was in mid scream how receptive do you think I'd be to someone tapping me on the shoulder while telling me that I should have noticed while walking down the hallway that the dresser had been moved, and anyway I should have had better shoes on, and why didn't I ever where proper shoes anyway, I never seem to be dressed properly and perhaps it's time to think about why I seem to avoid dressing properly for the occasion....
Posted by saw on November 29, 2004, at 1:37:33
In reply to Re: I'm Okay » partlycloudy, posted by AdaGrace on November 27, 2004, at 7:55:02
I am sorry that I could not be a part of this this weekend. It still hurts me to try and catch up on a Monday and invariably be the last one to post on the subject.
I am proud of you for writing that letter. You said some things that I don't think you have said "out loud" before. Well done my friend, like I said, I really do see some strength shining through all the hurt and hate.
Much love
Sabrina
Posted by AdaGrace on November 29, 2004, at 7:30:04
In reply to Re: I'm Okay » AdaGrace, posted by saw on November 29, 2004, at 1:37:33
Then why does it make me cry when I read what I wrote.....that's not really showing strength is it?
Posted by AdaGrace on November 29, 2004, at 7:33:27
In reply to Re: Dear AdaGrace -- just sayin' » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on November 28, 2004, at 21:11:55
I tend to think that Men and Women think differently about different things. I understand what 64Bowtie is saying. It doesn't make me want to hit him. But I have come to the realization that I don't have to have everyone agreeing with me all the time. I don't need that much reasurance. I have stopped feeling as if everyone has to give me sympathy for what I am going through. That letter was for me. For me to get out what I was feeling and what I wanted to say to him. I see now, and this really feels good, I see now that I don't really care what other people thing about the things I said. I said them for me.
However, it doesn't hurt once in a while for someone to walk by and give me a hand and help me up when I have fallen......
Thanks, AG
Posted by saw on November 29, 2004, at 8:50:51
In reply to Re: I'm Okay » saw, posted by AdaGrace on November 29, 2004, at 7:30:04
Crying IS strength my friend. YOU TAUGHT ME THAT!!
S
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 29, 2004, at 17:15:07
In reply to Re: Thank You » Gabbix2, posted by AdaGrace on November 29, 2004, at 7:33:27
> I tend to think that Men and Women think differently about different things.
Yes, I suppose that's true, often for men caring comes in the form of advice also.
It doesn't make me want to hit him.
Well I certainly could have been more tactful I've been really harsh lately, but Rod has asked for feedback on his delivery, so there it was-- in my babblebi*ch way. Ah, no one can accuse me of being two faced :(
But I have come to the realization that I don't have to have everyone agreeing with me all the time. I don't need that much reasurance. I have stopped feeling as if everyone has to give me sympathy for what I am going through.No pity here, just a whole lot of empathy.
I'm going through my own trial and while I can't get into the details, and my pain has blessedly diminished, the anger at the betrayal and lies
was echoed in your letter.That letter was for me. For me to get out what I was feeling and what I wanted to say to him. I see now, and this really feels good, I see now that I don't really care what other people thing about the things I said. I said them for me.
That's what I thought, sort of primal scream therapy. Funny how it has to be public sometimes though isn't it? I've tried sending e-mails to myself and it doesn't work.
> However, it doesn't hurt once in a while for someone to walk by and give me a hand and help me up when I have fallen......
>Well I can sure hold your hand, not sure if I can help you up but I can come down and bang my head on the cement with you and give you a hug :)
> Thanks, AGYour very welcome
Posted by AdaGrace on November 29, 2004, at 18:04:35
In reply to Ada Ada Ada, posted by Gabbix2 on November 29, 2004, at 17:15:07
I am seriously going through some deep shyte and I appreciate your post so much. I will get through that........I honestly will
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 29, 2004, at 19:17:12
In reply to Re: Well » Gabbix2, posted by AdaGrace on November 29, 2004, at 18:04:35
> I am seriously going through some deep shyte
Yeah, and no matter how much support you get, it's still a lonely process, I know.
and I appreciate your post so much.
I'm gladI will get through that........I honestly will
Of course you will, but you know I don't think I'll ever get over being amazed at what people are capable of doing to each other, and just how
sincere they can seem to be. I just don't.
I mean do you have to have been with someone for 40 years before you finally realize it was okay to trust them? I'm starting to feel that way.
>
Posted by dazedandconfused on November 30, 2004, at 11:40:34
In reply to Dear G, posted by AdaGrace on November 26, 2004, at 17:56:06
Ada,
I have been gone so am just now reading your posts. Good for you for letting it out...you give me hope and strength! We will get through this. I related so much to what you wrote...complete with the disappearing for a month and everything. And for the record, this is the hardest thing I have ever gone through!dazed
Posted by 64bowtie on December 1, 2004, at 3:12:12
In reply to Re: Dear AdaGrace -- just sayin' » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on November 28, 2004, at 21:11:55
Dear Gabbix,
On another board you officially lifted your ban... Larry Hoover was gracious enough to forward the rule about someone who bans someone from posting and then posts to that person, the ban is null and void and thus lifted.
That said... If we have a bad feeling, it doesn't have to drive our lives if we are adults. We get to exercise options not availble to us as kids.
Good to be back posting to you... I'm posting to let you know that once the door cracks open, knowledge can be our salvation. Maybe we didn't plan to solve life's puzzles with knowledge, doesn't mean we can't. Just because no one else warned us about me and what I know and how I got well and that anybody ever could get well, doesn't mean I'm wrong. What if someone is new at what I post and I'm not new at it? Am I still wrong?
I am a "broken record" about embracing adulthood as not being perilous. Adulthood brings with it vast new talents, skills, abilities, and attributes. Childhood is for discovery and practice, practice, practice, obey, obey, obey. Adulthood is for living a life, not guessing at what that might mean.
Give adulthood a chance. Feelings 90% to 100% of the time is re-enacting childhood if we are adults. Adults are most effective mixing thinking, feeling, and intention, not just having everything teeter on this or that feeling.
Kids can't do that, mix thinking with feeling and intention. Adults can. When we do, our lives begin to "work"! Eventually we get good at being adult. If we have a bad feeling, it doesn't have to drive our lives if we are adults. We get to exercise options not availble to us as kids.
Please keep the lines of comunication open. I will. I can.
Rod
PS: Change doesn't have to mean loss of self...
Posted by gardenergirl on December 1, 2004, at 10:59:49
In reply to I won't waste your time justifying myself.. » Gabbix2, posted by 64bowtie on December 1, 2004, at 3:12:12
Rod,
I wanted to reiterate what Gabbi said above, and what I know I've said to you before. There is a difference between providing information and being supportive. My supervisor tells me that one of the things that new therapists or trainees can trip up on is mixing those two up or using information when empathy is warranted.A study he refers to often (naturally it is his own, :) of course), shows that using empathy early on is critical to the outcome. Once the working alliance is established via empathy, THEN gathering and providing information is most effective.
In addition, unsolicited information can often fall on deaf ears. You know that old saying, "you can lead a horse to water"...but they ain't gonna drink if they ain't thirsty for water.
You've asked for feedback before. I'd like feedback now on my message. How is it received by you? I often can't tell this from your replies, both privately and on the forums. For some reason, I can't make the leaps with you between messages. Can you help bridge the gap, please?
gg
Posted by 64bowtie on December 3, 2004, at 0:48:19
In reply to Re: I won't waste your time justifying myself.. » 64bowtie, posted by gardenergirl on December 1, 2004, at 10:59:49
GG,
<<< I am still sad that I over stepped with you... I again apologise...
<<< Regarding advice giving... In my coaching practice, nothing changes, nothing gets done, there is no progress, without what is refered to as a contract. It is not legally binding. It's a "social contract" establishing mutual responsibility and accountability (both/each are important).
<<< Here at Babble, I can't and won't try to make contracts with anyone. Dr-Bob makes me accountable for "civility", and I accept that as an easily maintained price of admission. Otherwise, contracts don't work at Babble.
<<< Also, taking two lines from the AA Big-Book:
1. ...I share my experience, strength and hope with all here present...
2. Everything you hear in this meeting, stays at this meeting. Take what you want into your heart and leave the rest....maybe I'm just wired different...
<<< Actually, I do journal... alot... I am saddened that I don't do good-explaining, for your consumption, especially...
> You've asked for feedback before. I'd like feedback now on my message. How is it received by you?
><<< You got it! I hope that what I said about contracts is a stepping stone to understanding me. I don't really give advice that I expect adherence to. I can't get a contract so why should I demand responsiveness. I am purely delighted when someone sneaks in a gem into any response they may have posted. You are important to me because of the gems I have found in your posts to whomever. Thank you for connecting and sharing.
Whether I agree or disagree with what you have shared is less important at the time I read it. I have the illusion that we are engaged in a dialog with its own synergy, so I don't stop to pass judgement on this or that detail. I see this clearly because you asked me to do it differently. I now have a plan that includes really responding to what your points are, so that you can have some assurence that you didn't waste your time with me.
Thanks! I needed that!
> For some reason, I can't make the leaps with you between messages. Can you help bridge the gap, please?
>
> gg<<< I bet our future stuff will be better than the past stuff... It starts right here:
Ahem...
I hear that you can't make the leaps with me between messages. Is that close to what you feel? (answer)
I also hear you asking me to bridge the gaps. Do you have any special style you prefer I use in writing my "bridging" statements?
(answer)Let me make a stab at this. I hear you saying that I leave you unable to bridge the gaps between my first post, your first response, and my second post which is my response to your post. I take this project seriously and you can hold me accountable to make our transacting posts un-vague as to meaning and intent. Yo and I have this contract. Your part is to alert me to my vagueness and my part ist to reiterate less vaguely. Is this a good first draft of the contract?
<<< I will now go back to your whole post and see how I can respond to the rest of your message. You deserve the best. Let me deliver my best.
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on December 3, 2004, at 3:02:13
In reply to Re: I won't waste your time justifying myself.. » 64bowtie, posted by gardenergirl on December 1, 2004, at 10:59:49
GG,
> There is a difference between providing information and being supportive. ...trip up on is mixing those two up or using information when empathy is warranted.
><<< I understand and accept that you are concerned that I volunteer information when empathy is most important. I admit I write informative posts. I suppose I need to rethink what I am here for. I can't make the difference a therapist might. Dr-Bob frowns on attempted therapy. What I have to reconcile is, do I want to hang around a site that is only into supportiveness and no new-stuff. I don't think you are saying "either-or".
<<< Maybe someone who slates their wellness for the last 10 to 15 years, lacks the considerable empathy to share insights with folks that slate their currently deep and pervasive disorders. I believe I do have the adequate empathy and lack the proper timing. I'll work on my timing.
> A study he refers to often (naturally it is his own, :) of course), shows that using empathy early on is critical to the outcome. Once the working alliance is established via empathy, THEN gathering and providing information is most effective.
><<< I'll accept this on face value.
> In addition, unsolicited information can often fall on deaf ears. You know that old saying, "you can lead a horse to water"...but they ain't gonna drink if they ain't thirsty for water.
><<< I accept what you are saying on its face value, except I can't make contracts so I can't hold the Babble-folks accountable for accepting and understand the princples I bring here. I don't pretend to be doing therapy here. ...and Dr-Bob really frowns on that anyway!
<<< How am I doing???
Rod
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 3, 2004, at 14:17:29
In reply to I won't waste your time justifying myself.. » Gabbix2, posted by 64bowtie on December 1, 2004, at 3:12:12
>> That said... If we have a bad feeling, it doesn't have to drive our lives if we are adults. We get to exercise options not availble to us as kids.
Seldom do I see children letting bad feelings drive their lives, generally I see them feel what they are feeling get it over with and move on.
>
>
> I am a "broken record" about embracing adulthood as not being perilous. Adulthood brings with it vast new talents, skills, abilities, and attributes.Yes, and yes. Listening and empathizing with others are also adult skills, starting to develop generally in children after the age of two.
> Give adulthood a chance. Feelings 90% to 100% of the time is re-enacting childhood if we are adults. Adults are most effective mixing thinking, feeling, and intention, not just having everything teeter on this or that feeling.See above.
>
> Kids can't do that, mix thinking with feeling and intention.Where do you find that information?
Adults can. When we do, our lives begin to "work"! Eventually we get good at being adult. If we have a bad feeling, it doesn't have to drive our lives if we are adults. We get to exercise options not availble to us as kids.
>
See above
> Please keep the lines of comunication open. I will. I can.
>
I will try, however I am frequently irritated by the presentation of your information, and opinion which is presented as fact.
>
> PS: Change doesn't have to mean loss of self...did I infer that?
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 3, 2004, at 19:00:42
In reply to Re: I won't waste your time justifying myself.. » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on December 3, 2004, at 14:17:29
>and opinion which is presented as fact.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down or jump to conclusions about others.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Just saving you a little work Dr. Bob.
Posted by Susan47 on December 3, 2004, at 23:35:49
In reply to Re: I won't waste your time justifying myself.. » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on December 3, 2004, at 14:17:29
Do you think Dr. Bob was reading? I thought that what you did was (forgive me in advance for this....) ... so cute.
BTW 64 Bowtie is very well-meaning and he's also said to someone on another thread that he knows he has trouble with his timing, and I'm assuming he meant it, really .. personally, I find him easier to read and understand when he's replying to others, not me. For some reason when I read Rod responding to me, it feels all wrong, and when I read him responding to others, it makes sense but I can clearly see that he'll most likely get a negative reaction, but I can't seem to pin down why it feels wrong, as what Rod actually says is in itself not offensive. It does seem to me as though Bowtie (I can never think of him without his truck :)) has thought processes that develop differently than mine. Could this be a male/female difference? Can anyone or has anyone else pinned it down? Rod, do you know what it is? Rod, are you there? This isn't really ABOUT you, it's WITH you, I hope. :)
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 4, 2004, at 0:41:51
In reply to Good one, Gabbix. :), posted by Susan47 on December 3, 2004, at 23:35:49
> Do you think Dr. Bob was reading? I thought that what you did was (forgive me in advance for this....) ... so cute.
Thanks.
> BTW 64 Bowtie is very well-meaning and he's also said to someone on another thread that he knows he has trouble with his timing,
Well, how about I just try and deep breathe, I'll think about what you said, and remember that some of my favorite people on babble, are people I clashed with at first. '
The upside to this is that you never have to wonder if I'm one of those people who's only nice to your face : )
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2004, at 1:28:01
In reply to Please Be Civil Gabbix2, posted by Gabbix2 on December 3, 2004, at 19:00:42
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 4, 2004, at 16:26:54
In reply to Re: thanks :-) (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2004, at 1:28:01
Posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2004, at 0:39:15
In reply to Thank You again, » gardenergirl », posted by 64bowtie on December 3, 2004, at 0:48:19
>
>
> <<< Here at Babble, I can't and won't try to make contracts with anyone. Dr-Bob makes me accountable for "civility", and I accept that as an easily maintained price of admission. Otherwise, contracts don't work at Babble.>
>
> <<< You got it! I hope that what I said about contracts is a stepping stone to understanding me. I don't really give advice that I expect adherence to. I can't get a contract so why should I demand responsiveness. I am purely delighted when someone sneaks in a gem into any response they may have posted. You are important to me because of the gems I have found in your posts to whomever. Thank you for connecting and sharing.The contract concept makes sense. Although it does seem as if you are acting as if you did have a contract. If you can't enforce or bind someone to something that isn't there, why uphold your end without that in place? Just curious. Is it that you appreciate the information you find in others' posts and thus you try to provide info. too?
>
> Ahem...
> I hear that you can't make the leaps with me between messages. Is that close to what you feel? (answer)
Um, that's exactly what I said. ;)> I also hear you asking me to bridge the gaps. Do you have any special style you prefer I use in writing my "bridging" statements?
I guess it's just that sometimes we glom onto very different aspects of each others' posts to respond to. And that can be frustrating, because it seems to me that I'm not being heard. Those are the gaps I refer to. Perhaps if we both post in shorter bursts with fewer concepts to each other, we can then both be talking about the same thing?
> You and I have this contract. Your part is to alert me to my vagueness and my part ist to reiterate less vaguely. Is this a good first draft of the contract?
I think this is good. I admit, I don't always directly state what gets me lost. I'll try to be less vague about it.
>
> <<< I will now go back to your whole post and see how I can respond to the rest of your message. You deserve the best. Let me deliver my best.You know what? I don't need THE best. I just need your effort. And that's what I owe to you, too.
Thanks,
gg
Posted by 64bowtie on December 7, 2004, at 2:06:01
In reply to Re: Thank You again, » 64bowtie, posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2004, at 0:39:15
GG,
>
> The contract concept makes sense. Although it does seem as if you are acting as if you did have a contract. If you can't enforce or bind someone to something that isn't there, why uphold your end without that in place? Just curious. Is it that you appreciate the information you find in others' posts and thus you try to provide info. too? ><<< Yep! That and a dose of old fashioned wisdom...
> > <<< You and I have this contract. Your part is to alert me to my vagueness and my part is to reiterate less vaguely. Is this a good first draft of the contract?
>
> I think this is good. I admit, I don't always directly state what gets me lost. I'll try to be less vague about it.
> >
> Thanks,
> gg<<< No, NO! I insist! T H A N K Y O U!!!
Rod
PS: You're not suspect of being vague, Dear. I'm the one who gets his mammalary-protuberance stuck in the Maytag wringer....
Posted by 64bowtie on December 7, 2004, at 2:09:43
In reply to Good one, Gabbix. :), posted by Susan47 on December 3, 2004, at 23:35:49
This is the end of the thread.
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