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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
Another call from my parents. My father had fallen and couldn't get up. He had fallen so that my mother couldn't get out of bed and let emergency personnel in. They weren't going to call emergency personnel.
I reiterated that I was not able to get my father up by myself (my mother is unable to help - in a wheelchair) but that I would be happy to call 911 and wait there for someone to come. They said they didn't want that and hung up.
I called back and my mother kindly relayed the message that my father had said that he hated me, that I was a horrible excuse for a daughter, and that he no longer wanted me in his house. That he no longer had a daughter.
I went over there anyway. He was still on the floor. Still determined not to have 911 called. Asking me to do this or that to help him up, only to ask me to wait while he caught his breath, or to fall again and hit his head on this or that furniture. I watched with a curious detachment as he lay on his back flailing about as he called me a m_____f____ and similar things and threatened all sorts of things should I call 911. I tried unsuccessfully to imagine my husband's parents calling him those names under any circumstances. I tried unsuccessfully to imagine myself speaking like that to my son under any circumstances. I remembered how my mother had done the same - screamed at me how I was no longer her daughter because I had caught her stealing from me. I wondered how many people had this sort of relationship with their parents. When he started yelling that he had broken something, I quit even halfheartedly trying to help him up and called 911. My tears were still streaking my face from my mother's kind sharing of my father's words. They spoke kindly to me about older people. But the truth is that my parents aren't like this because they're older. They've always been like this. I just was never the target in my father's case before. My mother and brother were.
I told my father to be careful what he said to me because I just might listen to him. I told my mother to please not relay messages like that from my father because I just might listen to them. My parents thought that was horribly unkind of me.
I feel kind of numb about it.
Posted by JenStar on November 8, 2004, at 23:08:48
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
oh Dinah, what a horrible situation! I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. Geez. I am at a complete loss, and really have no advice, but I feel for you.
What does the future hold with you / them?
Take care,
jenstar
Posted by Susan47 on November 9, 2004, at 0:00:52
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
My heart goes out to you so much. My father lately said "I can't stand her, I don't want her here, I want nothing to do with her." About me. To my mother, while I was on the phone with her. So, your parents are not that unusual, I'll bet. Just really selfish and cruel. Like mine. You're worth a heck of a lot more than you're getting from them; at least, that's what I tell myself. What do you do to make yourself feel better? Because, you shouldn't be taking any of this shite from them seriously, unless you were to turn your back on them. I'm thinking of you.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2004, at 0:07:41
In reply to Re: My parents, posted by JenStar on November 8, 2004, at 23:08:48
Heaven only knows. I worry that my father won't be around much longer. I can't even imagine a scenario where things ever get bearable again. I just see this neverending tunnel of idon'tevenknowhowtodescribeit.
I try to imagine how difficult this all must be for them too. I understand that it must be. Both of them confined to wheelchairs and dependent on me or others. I'd hate it. I'm sure they are frustrated and angry.
But that all seems so far away.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2004, at 0:11:17
In reply to Re: My parents; Dinah, posted by Susan47 on November 9, 2004, at 0:00:52
How do you tolerate it?
I was thinking that everything else was horrible. The phone calls, and the physical aspects of caring for them. I'm just whooshing away until I'm well nigh nonfunctional.
But that I can't tolerate. I couldn't tolerate it from my mother. I can't tolerate it from my father. My mother I emotionally divorced. My father... I don't want to emotionally divorce him. As flawed as he is I love him.
How do you tolerate that sort of rejection and abandonment?
Posted by gardenergirl on November 9, 2004, at 0:27:34
In reply to Re: My parents; Dinah » Susan47, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2004, at 0:11:17
Oh Dinah, that sounds just nightmarish. I'm so sorry you are subjected to that. I imagine it's especially hurtful when you are there to help in whatever way you appropriately can.
Can you distance yourself from them for a bit? It sounds like you are holding fairly well to your boundaries. Vacation from parents? Wish I had solutions or a magic wand...
((((Dinah))))
gg
Posted by Susan47 on November 9, 2004, at 0:50:21
In reply to Re: My parents; Dinah » Susan47, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2004, at 0:11:17
This isn't about me, are you trying to take care of me? Quit that! I should've never told you what my own scenario was, not in your thread hon. I don't know, how *do* you tolerate that sort of rejection and abandonment? :]
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on November 9, 2004, at 8:28:36
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
Dinah,
I am so sorry you had to go through that. No one can go through that unscathed. It sounds awful and something which you definitely don't deserve. If they have behaved like this all of their lives, they are both mentally ill. If not, is this what growing old is like?
Posted by SLS on November 9, 2004, at 10:16:24
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
Hi Dinah.
> Another call from my parents. My father had fallen and couldn't get up. He had fallen so that my mother couldn't get out of bed and let emergency personnel in. They weren't going to call emergency personnel.
I can hardly believe the story you've told here. You know that I like to find ways to fix things, but this is a hell of a thing to try to fix. I wouldn't know where to begin.
Perhaps it is time for you to be the parent if you haven't assumed that role already.
I find that my relationship with my parents and the roles played in the family have reversed. I have had to become the parent. At some point, this became an active decision. That this has happened allows me to tolerate their dysfunctional behaviors more easily. I guess you might do well to consider being called a MF as part of a temper tantrum that is better ignored. Of course, this takes an extraordinary amount of self-control and patience.
I doubt what I wrote will help, as I'm sure you've considered these things already.
Sorry...
:-(
(((((Dinah)))))
- Scott
Posted by sunny10 on November 9, 2004, at 12:24:37
In reply to Re: My parents » Dinah, posted by SLS on November 9, 2004, at 10:16:24
Yes, Scott is right- you need boundaries, and FAST. That numb doesn't last long- serious pain may follow.
As they are both in wheelchairs, they are bound to be very angry at life in general. Feeling "helpless" is a terrible way to live- you've felt it, too- probably during their vicious verbal onslaught.
I suggest talking with them about it. Maybe tell them that you are a grown woman with self-respect and you will not allow them to treat you with unkind words, ever. Maybe suggest that you realize that life is not easy for them, but that you were there to help and they "must have misplaced their dignity while in a panic". Sometimes being reminded of bad behavior is enough- sometimes not.
If they refuse to "remember" their horrific words, get a little tape recorder. My brother did that to my ex-husband when my ex refused to "turn over" during the night and we all lived together at the time. My bro taped the horrendous snoring, and my ex was embarassed that he had called my brother a liar. Next time I nudged him to "turn over"- he didn't fight me, he turned.
Seems a lame comparison, I know- If I had thought to use this method with my own mother, we wouldn't be estranged for the last eighteen years and would have better examples for you ! I guess I'm saying that I wish I had asked for advice back then, like you have now. And you are so good to not just threaten them with never helping again, et cetera...as most people in that position would've done!
Your bravery and obvious patience awes me,
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on November 9, 2004, at 13:47:37
In reply to Re: My parents- Dinah, posted by sunny10 on November 9, 2004, at 12:24:37
I wouldn't parent my parents the way they are now, and I don't think they're behaving as badly as yours, but if you love them that's such a terrible scar to bear. (((Dinah)))
Posted by AuntieMel on November 9, 2004, at 14:59:01
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
That's pretty awful. And coming from your father, of all people. That must feel like a horrible betrayal as the two of you have always gotten on well.
You handled it wonderfully. I guess the only possible advice I can offer (not that you asked for any) would be to go oversometime when he's not on the floor. Maybe he can apologize (in his own way) under better circumstances?
But he seems to have a (smiling as she says this) stubborn streak. Why else would he have still been on the floor?
Anyway, I'm proud of the way you handled it.
Posted by boomarang on November 9, 2004, at 17:59:05
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
my husband and i went thru similar type situations with his father as he developed Alzheimers.
the anger and changes in personality can be a part of Alzheimers. I haven't read all your threads so I don't know if this is your fathers case, if he has always been like this or if some of his attitude has become this way in the past year or so.
as we all know, once something has a label there are more resources usually available.
sara
Posted by littleone on November 9, 2004, at 20:31:05
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
Hi Dinah. I'm so sorry you have to endure this sort of treatment. I know that you can find it difficult to hold your boundaries, but I think you're doing a wonderful job there. It may feel like impossibly hard work to maintain them, but that is always better than being crushed by them tumbling down on top of you.
Also, you probably know this already, but I just thought I'd reiterate that none of these things your parents are saying are true. They are projecting/blaming/etc which all comes back to it being their own personal issues. It's not truly reflective of you (or even your relationship with them). You are a loving, giving, kind, generous, thoughtful person. Please don't believe them when they say otherwise.
Also, I think that numb can be good. It enables you to do what has to be done.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2004, at 20:40:46
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
And I suppose I'm getting paid back for not confronting my father a long time ago about how he treated my mother and brother. He has been open about detesting my mother for as long as I can remember. When my son was a preschooler I told him it was my parents' anniversary and he asked if anniversaries are what people who hated each other had. And he always has been vicious to my brother. Calls him useless, etc. I actually got hysterical once about his treatment of my brother. But he was nice enough to me. Yelled of course. But nothing really personal. Sadly I can't say this is a change.
However, I still love him. I spent the day in the emergency room with him. My mother woke me up with a call that he was semiconscious and jerking and moaning, and asked if she should call 911. Sigh. I suppose the shifting of roles is well in play if she thought she needed to ask that. It turns out his blood sugar was down to twenty. He was lucky they were sleeping together for the first time in many many years, because if she hadn't been woken up by him, he'd probably be in a coma or dead. He seems more or less ok now, but they're going to run some tests and keep him in the hospital.
Numb is good. I'm going to keep numb as long as possible.
Posted by AdaGrace on November 9, 2004, at 23:07:39
In reply to My parents, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2004, at 22:10:47
Dinah,
There are so many things in your post that sadden me and make my eyes water. I cannot understand how anyone can do that to their own daughter. Yet, I think of things I have gone through with my own father, and I can relate, somewhat. Just a tad. The thing that I realize is that he is my father, I have no choice in that matter, and as long as he is alive, I will do what i can to help him. However, he does not and I mean DOES NOT talk to me that way. Yet, he is old, and he is set in his ways, and he maked things inconvenient for us children. We allow it, because we are all afraid of the consequenses of us not catoring to his every whim. It is so very sad when you begin to think that the only way your life is going to get better is if someone dies. That is a horrifying feeling I keep deep, deep inside me. I know what it is like to be at someone's beck and call, and yet, there are no harsh words, no belittleing.......not anymore, but oooooohhhhh there used to be. Funny how things change when an older parent loses their spouse. You find out how that spouse really lived day in and day out. You become that spouse and your life changes forever. But I digress, I speak of my own experience and not of yours. Yours sounds too much to bear.....and I commend you for your steadfast efforts to continue to be there and do what you can. Noone said sainthood was easy to achieve, but you seem to be well on your way. May I suggest one thing? Write, sing, talk to the wind, and then use whatever else you have left to live through this hell you are in, because someday, someday soon, life will get better. It has to, for it doesn't seem it can get any worse.
God Bless You Dinah
AdaGrace
Posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 8:52:30
In reply to Re: My parents » Dinah, posted by AdaGrace on November 9, 2004, at 23:07:39
How are things today? Is your dad stable now? Are your emotions stable today?
I'm sure we'd all like to know how last night went. We are all, I think, a little in awe of your maturity and grace through this. I, at least, would like to be able to offer whatever energy I can for you. I'm hoping that just by spewing out the negative parts here on the board, you will will buoy up the positive ones...
thinking of you,
sunny10
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2004, at 9:22:26
In reply to Re: My parents » Dinah, posted by AdaGrace on November 9, 2004, at 23:07:39
A lot really. I really do very little.
I stop by once a day. I come when they call for things like that. But I don't take them into my home. I don't participate in their physical care. I offer to contact home health agencies for them, but I'm not willing to bathe them myself. I feel bad about that.
Yesterday the nurses were cleaning my father's feet. As he's just recently begun to consent to wear diapers and he has been making awful messes for others to clean and he doesn't wear shoes and the person they hired to help out with things like bathing (but who doesn't come often enough IMO) has been out of town, I imagine the possibilities of what they found on his feet were really revolting. When my mother explained about the woman being out of town, the nurse said in a disapproving tone I could hear plainly from outside the curtain "Don't you have family that can help you?" I'm sorry to say they don't.
My therapist says not to feel bad because of my emotional limitations. But I was raised to believe your emotional limitations were no excuse for your behavior. I feel bad. But I also can't bring myself to break those father daughter taboos on touching. I'm pretty sure I can't do it for my mother either. I pretty much have to blank out when I'm with them as it is, or I wouldn't be able to do what I do do.
Unfortunately my life will just get worse if one of them dies. My mother is what makes it possible for my father to stay at home. Even more importantly my father is the check on my mother to keep the behaviors probably caused by mental illness in check. Without him around, her behavior will be out of control. I don't think she's certifiable (and while an attorney thinks she's probably interdictable, I'm not up to that fight), but without my father she's going to go bankrupt and fill her house up to the ceiling in every room with junk.
I see no way out of this for my lifetime, as I fully expect my mother to outlive me.
Posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 11:33:50
In reply to Re: There is so much I don't do for them, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2004, at 9:22:26
Did your parents wash THEIR parents?
There are lines which are not crossed. That is allowed. The nurse was out of line saying that the family should do that. Perhaps the company which supplied your parents' caregiver (which you, "the family" DID provide)should have sent a replacement for a vacationing caregiver???!!!???
We all have our "lines", and it sounds like you are already doing all the right things to be sure that your "lines" don't interfere with the quality of their care at all.
Please don't let the words of a few make you feel guilty. You Do a lot more than you give yourself credit for....
My own father used to beat me when I was a child. My mother ignored me and the beatings, too. It sounds like you've had your own share of emotional abuses at their hands and I am just amazed that you still manage to take care of them at all. You are the strongest person I've ever heard!
Posted by octopusprime on November 10, 2004, at 11:47:33
In reply to Re: There is so much I don't do for them, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2004, at 9:22:26
Dinah,
Visiting once a day is a lot. A LOT! You coordinate their care. That is A LOT! You do your very best for your parents and there is nothing for you to be ashamed of. You are a good daughter and I'm sorry if you don't get the affirmation you need from your family and their caregivers. You will get that affirmation from babble.
Dinah is a good daughter. Dinah is a good daughter.
It sounds like your parents (especially your dad) require 24/7 care. It doesn't sound like it is safe for them to be in their own home by themselves. I'm sure you have thought about assisted living and how to bring it up and so on. But I think this episode really shows that it's required.
ps - my mom was a good daughter and put her parents in a home. they still loved her.
pps - my mom fully expects me and my sister to put her and dad into a home when the time comes. we're still good daughters.
Posted by MKB on November 10, 2004, at 15:19:45
In reply to Re: There is so much I don't do for them, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2004, at 9:22:26
Are you in the U.S.? There should be lots of support systems for you, if so. I have also had the responsibility of caring for both of my parents and have recently learned a lot about what help is available. It sounds like you need to have a doctor write an order for home health care. This will be paid for by Medicare and will be a tremendous relief to you. They can send someone in to help with the bathing as well as tend to medical needs. My heart goes out to you, especially if you don't have siblings to help. It's hard to find out all this information, but there really are many senior services available. Forgive me if I'm assuming you don't already know these things.
Posted by JenStar on November 10, 2004, at 17:38:49
In reply to There is so much you do for them » Dinah, posted by octopusprime on November 10, 2004, at 11:47:33
I agree with octopusprime...there is a limit to how much one person can do for aging parents.
Everyone's limit will be slightly different (some can do more, some less) but just being human & living your own life means that there's a point at which you say NO MORE.
When your health and your own family's life start becoming eroded, consumed and tainted by the well of parental need, it might be time to do less for the parents.
I know it feels wrong and mean and traitorous to pull away from them, but you're bringing up a new generation of life (your son!) and LIVING a new generation of life, and that new life needs your help to get started right. It just can't be spent dry by helping the old generation.
I agree that assisted living might be the right thing. Or more round-the-clock aides, or something like that. Is cost an issue, or the reluctance of your parents, or your own reluctance to do it?
Ignore that b***t*y nurse who looked accusingly at you and implied that you should be doing more for your dad's feet & etc. It's sooooo easy to be all sanctimonious and holier-than-thou when you don't walk in someone's shoes...and that lady certainly didn't plan on living with your parents 24x7, did she?
I don't know what the right answer is. I saw a family friend get old before her time, saw the life sucked out of her, because she would NOT put her mother in a home. She fed her, bathed her, used a plastic glove to help "un-impact" her bowels daily, and other unpleasant tasks. Each task on its own was manageable, but her entire life and was dedicated to her mother's minute-to-minute needs and her own life was completely obviated, as if she were a slave. Her life was a living hell (my opinion!).
She felt that she had no other moral choice, but the rest of her life fell apart. I always looked at that and felt terrible -- you had to admire what she was doing for her mother, in a way, but is such self-abnegation really a virtue? I honestly don't know. Was it better for her to do it? I don't know...
Now for me, my parents are still in good shape/health. I'd like to think that they'll always have a place in my home, should they need it. Lucikly my parents are kind and do not say the things to me that your parents say and do to you.
But don't forget that your life is important, and you should be able to have lots and lots of time for you, your husband & your son...AND for the T, and for vacations, and for work, and for general FUN. And if parental care is eating waaaayyy to far into all of it, it would really be OK to stop. You ARE still a good daughter. And a good person!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on November 10, 2004, at 17:43:05
In reply to Re: There is so much I don't do for them, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2004, at 9:22:26
YOu're going to have a nice, looonng life, full of happiness & joy. Your mom will NOT outlive you! I wish no evil on her, of course! But things ARE going to get better....and the rest of your life WILL be good. :) (May not seem like it now, but it will!)
take care,
JenStar
Posted by Susan47 on November 11, 2004, at 0:21:40
In reply to Re: There is so much I don't do for them, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2004, at 9:22:26
4You were raised to believe that emotional limitations were no excuse for your behaviour ... it's amazing, to me, that lousy parenting and poor parent behaviour can still create such wonderful, responsible people .. like yourself. :]
Posted by partlycloudy on November 11, 2004, at 6:43:14
In reply to Re: There is so much I don't do for them, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2004, at 9:22:26
Dinah, that nurse was completely out of line in her comment. When my dad died - quite a while ago, 1985 - I discovered a monumental personal truth: that in troubled times, families who have not been close, don't suddenly become compassionate and caring. My siblings were extremely conflicted about their relationships with dad, and going through his death from cancer pushed everyone farther apart. It's only now, almost 20 years on, that any of them are able to talk about him with any affection.
I guess I'm trying to say that this situation is like putting your relationship with your parents until a big magnifying glass. You're doing the best thing in having care come in for them, and it will be even better if they can be admitted into a nursing home. You are a better daughter than they deserve, IMO.
pc
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