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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 12:55:38
Right now I've got a lot of guilt about my inability to contribute anything like an equal share within my marriage. This episode of depression began more than a year ago, and I have been unable to work -- or even to manage basic functioning, for that matter -- during this period. Since I'm not working outside the house, and, for that matter, hardly leave the house at all, I feel a lot of pressure to keep the housekeeping up myself. At the same time, it's so overwhelming and I'm feeling so incapable that I still get resentful that my husband doesn't do more to help. That leads to a lot of guilt, since he's the sole income supporting us right now, and he's also taken on a lot of things that I feel as if I *should* be able to help with, if not do myself.
For a while, I could at least rationalize it by saying that I was "sick", and that that excused some of my failures. Now, though, that this has gone on so dang long, that just feels like an empty excuse for laziness. I try to force myself to do more, which leaves me feeling worse, since it's not always possible to get done as much as I want to do. That leaves me feeling as if I have failed, which I suppose I have. Maybe the failure really is in having unrealistic expectations of myself, but it's still a failure in some sense.
The feeling of being overwhelmed, though, is terrible. I want so much to have some sort of help with some of this, but there's no place to turn for it. My husband can't or won't help with most of it -- although if I bring it up, he always says that he's willing. It's just that when the time comes to *do* anything, he doesn't. I've asked my mother to help, but she creates other difficulties that would make it almost more emotionally expensive to have her come and help than if she doesn't. There is no one else I can ask, either because I'm asking for something that's too weird -- like "just come and talk to me for comfort while I try to do [x]" -- or because the tasks require special skills that most people I know just don't have. My husband, who doesn't have those skills, could help just by being with me while I try to do some of these things. Even that, though, doesn't happen.
And then there are some basic issues that drive me crazy -- like the 100 pairs of socks in his sock drawer, when he only wears about eight of those pairs, or the dozens of t-shirts, of which he wears fewer than half a dozen. My husband is a bit of a hoarder, which is OK, except that I'd like the hoarded things to be kept neater, and he resists any effort to reduce the clutter and disarray. This issue comes up in marriage counseling all the time, but nothing changes and he is resistant to virtually all suggestions about it, no matter who brings them up.
The worst for me, though, is that guilt about wanting him to contribute more, when I feel as if I'm contributing so little. Especially since I feel as if I *should* be doing more, even though it's all so overwhelming to me.
Who else has gone through this whole thing? Have you found anything that helped you cope?
Thanks.
Posted by partlycloudy on September 20, 2004, at 13:47:22
In reply to Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 12:55:38
When this latest year-long bout of depression hit, my ability to do chores around the house which was hit or miss at best, went to zero. I felt very guilty at not being able to keep up with anything - laundry, dusting, vacuuming, grocery shopping, cooking... I had no energy to do these things and my almighty guilt and self blame had a field day with these added worries.
I sat down with my husband, who said "I don't care if you can't do it. None of those things are really important. What's important is that you get better." So - you must think that my uber-hubby whisked out the duster and whipped up gourmet dinners from Bob Appetit magazine. Nothing of the sort. We just kind of let the squalor build up and then when it would get bad enough in one area or another, he or I would tackle that one thing.
For me, it's still a big guilt issue. What I realize, though, is that it means nothing to my husband as far as what I'm contributing to the marriage. As a matter of fact, if he takes off his glasses, the place looks pretty clean (until his foot gets stuck on some mystery food item on the kitchen floor). He will rarely take the initiative to clean it, and I don't let that bug me any more. He didn't marry me to be a housekeeper, that much is clear.
Now I try to do what I can and when I can. Sometimes I can do the grocery shopping, but he puts the stuff away. Or else I shop and then decide I can't cook (take out time).
It's critical that you not be so hard on yourself with this stuff. Having a clean home is a good thing, but not something that should define your worthiness.
Posted by AuntieMel on September 20, 2004, at 14:08:28
In reply to Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 12:55:38
Guilt is a major problem for us all.
I am always overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of things that need doing. If I look at it all at once, I get so overwhelmed that I can't do anything at all, which just adds to the guilt.
What I try to do is break it down into small tasks and make a 'to-to' list for the day. I never priortize it, because then I'm likely to get hung up on one - and not do any.
I rarely finish the list, but at the end of the day I'll find that I'll have several checked off. It doesn't get the whole house cleaned, but if I can get the top shelves of a closet, or the fridge or the cat boxes or anything - I chalk that up in the 'success' catagory.
And when hubby comes home, if I can rattle off a few things that got done I feel better.
Posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 15:31:51
In reply to Re: Guilt and contributions in marriage » Racer, posted by AuntieMel on September 20, 2004, at 14:08:28
One of the other issues with the squalor around here is that I'm pretty much not leaving the house, and the disarray is really distressing to me. It bothers me a lot more than it bothers my husband.
I guess that's got a lot to do with it. I feel guilty in part because I think that I'd make myself feel better by cleaning this place up, so that I could have a clean nest, but then I still don't get it done. Then I get after myself because I'm "not making enough of an effort to get better", you know?
Then, after you parse that, add in the guilt about my lack of contribution, and the final factor: we've talked a lot in marriage counseling about how distressing the mess is to me, and my husband still won't help. (He spends much of the weekends lying on the sofa, 'not feeling well', which is probably true, but there are things he could do about that.) A lot of my guilt has to do with how much I resent him not doing anything, when he is working and supporting us.
OK, now that I've finished the thought, wanna offer more? (Or, PC, can you copy that 'understanding' and 'supportive' profile of your husband, so that I can install them on mine?)
Thanks for the input so far, though. I'm sorry to find that I've got company here in SqualorVille, but at least I'm in good company.
Posted by partlycloudy on September 20, 2004, at 15:50:55
In reply to Heheh, guess I forgot to mention..., posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 15:31:51
> OK, now that I've finished the thought, wanna offer more? (Or, PC, can you copy that 'understanding' and 'supportive' profile of your husband, so that I can install them on mine?)
>Part of why my husband is as supportive as he is, is because I have force fed him information about bipolar2, anxiety, and panic attacks. He didn't seem the least bit interested, but when I was able to do a show-and-tell (see me crying sitting on the toilet? That is depression. See me panting like a dog and shaking like a leaf? That is anxiety), he tried his best to see that when I said I couldn't do something (like make dinner or clean the white dust off the TV screen), I really couldn't.
He was really resistant to me making him read all this book exerpts and stuff printed from the web, but ultimately it helped him have a better appreciation of my disabilities. I would just tell him that if he read any of this, he would understand me better.
So perhaps he's not so much supportive and understanding as responsive to my bullying?
Posted by crazymaisie on September 20, 2004, at 16:15:17
In reply to Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 12:55:38
hi Racer.
sorry to hear that this is causing you so much stress. i can certainly identify with alot of your post. i am a stay-at-home-mom and my husband does the day-job thing. on my darkest days i find the housework overwhelming (not the doing of it, just the thought of it, which leads me to avoid doing any of it) i have talked to my T about this and am beginning to realise that i find it so stressful because i had to do all the housework from an early age and was always getting into trouble for not doing it right (even though what 'right' was was never clear and i was never taught how anything should be done). i don't know if there are links in your background which could help you see why it is a stressor for you also? in any case, that doesn't change the fact that it is still such a problem for me. earlier in our marriage my husband and i were having similar problems - i couldn't get the housework done, felt it was my duty and responsibility, he didn't help and basically didn't understand what the problem was or why i would get so worked up about something as unimportant as dusting. two things changed in the meantime. first, while i was still at work and we could afford it, we had someone come in to clean up once a week. it was a HUGE help. suddenly i didn't blame myself or him if something wasn't done, i could blame our very lovely cleaning lady. and of course i could never actually have bad feelings for someone who was so kind as to come in and iron my clothes for me. it helped enormously. now i am at home and we can't afford a cleaner (although i sometimes think of giving up therapy and getting a cleaner instead!) so what i have discovered is that he really doesn't understand what needs to be done and that he needs to be encouraged when he helps, no matter how bad a job he makes of it. i know this sounds patronising, but i wouldn't continue to do something to please him if he criticised my efforts every time (which i had been doing) so he asks me what needs to be done, we divide things up and i thank him when we're done. it's better, but i still stress. he now understands why i stress so much and tries to notice if i do clean out the fridge or something and says it looks great. sounds silly, but it helps me. i also know that he doesn't expect things to be clean or tidy and that really isn't a priority for him. i have to keep reminding myself that i'm not going to 'get into trouble' over it though.
sorry, this has gone on way too long. i hope you're feeling better soon and that you find some resolution with your husband. because really, housework doesn't matter in the big scheme of things, although i know how hard it can be to remember that.
maisie
Posted by AuntieMel on September 20, 2004, at 16:47:57
In reply to Heheh, guess I forgot to mention..., posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 15:31:51
If disarray bothers you and doesn't bother him, I'm hard pressed to figure out any way to motivate him. I doubt if I'd be much help cleaning out the garage, either (geez I hate stereotypes)
I have a cleaner, too, but that's only once a week. The rest of the time is up to us.
Clutter is my nemesis. It confuses me to no end and I get frustrated before I start. Sometimes I just use the 'good enough' theory. If I have a huge pile of papers and old mail on the kitched counter I'll scoop it all up, throw away the junk and end up with a smaller, tidier pile. It looks a lot better to me - and the counter can be cleaned.
But that has nothing to do with relationships....
Back in the old days the tv "norm" was dad working and the only home chore he did was mow the lawn (they didn't have garbage on tv) Mom stayed home, the kids were at school (they didn't have summer break either) and kept a perfectly tidy and clean house while wearing a dress.
At home, Dad worked his tail off, looked like warmmed over dung when he came home, plopped in his chair and opened a beer. Mom cleaned up the most horrendous things that the kids brought in, while changing the youngest two and screaming at the older ones about slamming the door or something.
We were trained from the beginning that the tv family was the normal one. And we expected to grow up and have that family.
Then comes reality
The norm now is for both to work. The guys pay lip service to sharing of house duties, but research shows that they don't really do it. They just think they do, becaused they cleared the table or something.
If for some reason, the wife stayes home (illness, or fortune) it is *expected* that she now handle *all* the household stuff. Even if no one says she has to do it all, she feels guilt if she doesn't, knowing that anyone that sees it is thinking 'what does she do all day?'
Add in being sick - and a sickness that has guilt as a symptom?
AND...
I've got to run home to cook dinner. I'll finish this thought tomorrow.
Posted by Ilene on September 20, 2004, at 20:10:46
In reply to Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 12:55:38
> Right now I've got a lot of guilt about my inability to contribute anything like an equal share within my marriage. This episode of depression began more than a year ago, and I have been unable to work -- or even to manage basic functioning, for that matter -- during this period. Since I'm not working outside the house, and, for that matter, hardly leave the house at all, I feel a lot of pressure to keep the housekeeping up myself. At the same time, it's so overwhelming and I'm feeling so incapable that I still get resentful that my husband doesn't do more to help. That leads to a lot of guilt, since he's the sole income supporting us right now, and he's also taken on a lot of things that I feel as if I *should* be able to help with, if not do myself.
>I could have written that paragraph, except I haven't worked for *years* and may not work again.
> For a while, I could at least rationalize it by saying that I was "sick", and that that excused some of my failures. Now, though, that this has gone on so dang long, that just feels like an empty excuse for laziness. I try to force myself to do more, which leaves me feeling worse, since it's not always possible to get done as much as I want to do. That leaves me feeling as if I have failed, which I suppose I have. Maybe the failure really is in having unrealistic expectations of myself, but it's still a failure in some sense.
>You are still sick. Having a chronic disease sucks. It's even worse if your disability is hidden and you seem like you ought to be functional, since all your visible parts are in working order. But the hidden parts, the ones inside your skull, are not in working order.
> The feeling of being overwhelmed, though, is terrible. I want so much to have some sort of help with some of this, but there's no place to turn for it. My husband can't or won't help with most of it -- although if I bring it up, he always says that he's willing. It's just that when the time comes to *do* anything, he doesn't. I've asked my mother to help, but she creates other difficulties that would make it almost more emotionally expensive to have her come and help than if she doesn't. There is no one else I can ask, either because I'm asking for something that's too weird -- like "just come and talk to me for comfort while I try to do [x]" -- or because the tasks require special skills that most people I know just don't have. My husband, who doesn't have those skills, could help just by being with me while I try to do some of these things. Even that, though, doesn't happen.
>
> And then there are some basic issues that drive me crazy -- like the 100 pairs of socks in his sock drawer, when he only wears about eight of those pairs, or the dozens of t-shirts, of which he wears fewer than half a dozen. My husband is a bit of a hoarder, which is OK, except that I'd like the hoarded things to be kept neater, and he resists any effort to reduce the clutter and disarray. This issue comes up in marriage counseling all the time, but nothing changes and he is resistant to virtually all suggestions about it, no matter who brings them up.
>
There are some battles you just can't win. That's probably one of them. It would be lovely to have a husband who kept his socks in order and cheerfully helped out around the house. Mine doesn't either.> The worst for me, though, is that guilt about wanting him to contribute more, when I feel as if I'm contributing so little. Especially since I feel as if I *should* be doing more, even though it's all so overwhelming to me.
>Part of this is lyour depression talking. Two of the symptoms of depression, guilt and malaise, get all intertwined and feed on each other. You already know this.
You probably do more than you think. One of things I did when I was posting my diary was list what I did each day. I could go back and see that I had actually accomplished things. On the downside--and I have to be honest here--I got little feeling of accomplishment. No matter what I did, I felt like I should be doing more.
> Who else has gone through this whole thing? Have you found anything that helped you cope?
>I think I've survived the worst of it. I still feel overwhelmed at times, mostly when my depression rears its gigantic ugly head. I still have boxes to go through, laundry to do, floors to wash....
I promised myself that once I got everything unpacked I'd hire a cleaning lady (of whatever gender). That might not be practical for you, depending on finances.
I make sure I do the things that have to be done, such as paying the bills and shopping for food, and recognize that other things are secondary. Sometimes I make lists of things I need to do, in order of importance.
I too feel like I should be doing more to compensate for hanging around the house all day. However, I need to get out , so I'm volunteering and (finally) arranging little get-togethers with friends and acquaintances. It helps me stay afloat and gives me a little more energy.
I also like to have a creative outlet, like a sewing project, if I can gather up the energy. It can really help when I am feeling stressed.
Everything else I think of to say sounds like a useless platitude, e.g., "Don't be so hard on yourself". Like duh. I think you are taking steps in the right direction by working on meds, going to marriage counseling, being self-aware, being active on PB, and so on.
Posted by saw on September 21, 2004, at 1:46:17
In reply to Re: Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by Ilene on September 20, 2004, at 20:10:46
I am extremely houseproud and absolutely hate a dirty or untidy house. I sweep my kitchen floor 5 or 6 times an hour and practically clean the chrome off the taps, oh yes, dishes? SCREECH! I use 2 or 3 bottles of dishwashing a month and never ever let the dishes pile up. (And I don't have OCD :) )
Imagine my surprise, horror and absolute fascination when I simply couldn't perform the above duties. The kitchen floor became a sticky and crumby carpet. The taps tried to shine but toothpaste and food started visting and I moved the dishes to the garage. And then the guilt started because my husband does not know me like this. He does not contribute by sweeping or cleaning, but he does cook often. He loves to so there was never an issue. He has also supported me in the way that he has not criticized once that I have not been cleaning. In fact, I think he was a bit relieved that I stopped being so fussy and particular.
Though I feel guilty, I also often feel that I just couldn't be bothered. Since starting meds, I am able to perform much of these duties, but not like before. It's almost as if some of the pride has disappeared.
It confuses me so that the inability to do these things happens with depression, especially since it is things that "normal" people do without so much as a blink of an eyelid.
How do I get my husband to understand that my standards haven't dropped, but that I am rendered useless by this disease? How do I explain to him that I am not lazy, I am ill. And why is it necessary to feel guilty when it is not our fault?
I would much rather be in bed right now. With my dirty kitchen floor and guilt and not-always-understanding husband.
Sabrina
Posted by ron1953 on September 21, 2004, at 9:01:06
In reply to Re: Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by saw on September 21, 2004, at 1:46:17
Since your husband isn't giving you a hard time about the housekeeping, the pressure and guilt are obviously yours. I'm not implying that your feelings aren't real or important. I like a clean house, too. My mom was a clean freak and I guess I took after her. My ex and I had the cleanest place of anybody we knew (except maybe my mom's), especially when our son was crawling, putting everything in his mouth, etc.. We weren't fanatics; didn't boil baby bottles or do separate laundry. We did what we thought was necessary. As we got older, we started to slack off a bit. Interestingly, so did my mom. After so many years, the "clean thing" started to get old. We didn't become slobs. We just let some things go a little longer. We found that a little extra dust buildup, not vacuuming or mopping as often, etc. wasn't such a big deal. Taking the pressure off was a great relief. Visitors still commented on how clean our place was.
I'm divorced and living by myself. I, too, can't "force" myself to do certain things. I can only do some things when I'm in the right mood, especially grocery shopping.
Now, here's a "trick" I learned that doesn't require a good mood or gobs of energy: As I move about the apartment (go to the bathroom, go to another room to get something, etc.), I simply pick something up and put it away while I'm at it. It's often just one thing; emptying the ashtray, putting a glass in the dishwasher, hanging up a piece of clothing, wiping off ONE surface, anything. You'd be surprised what an effect these little, tiny chores make. My place looks quite clean and tidy, although I'm aware of what's not spic 'n span. The big jobs can wait for one of my infrequent energy bursts. I actually had a small energy burst yesterday and cleaned the filthy glass on my sliding door and bedroom window (Luckily, that's all the glass I have). It just took a few minutes and now I have the pleasure of looking through clean windows at my apartment's courtyard. The next energy burst will come whenever, but I continue to do the little things as I move about. It's simple, easy and it works. It's amazing how much better my place looks compared to most of my friends' with the untidy clutter of newspapers, magazines, mail, all sorts of stuff. They don't like it either but it amazes me how they simply walk around it instead of grabbing something on their way to another room.
Hope this helps.
Posted by antigua on September 21, 2004, at 13:33:16
In reply to Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 12:55:38
I love this thread!
I think we should trade husbands, o.k.? Mine is very competitive about who does more around here--the laundry, dishes, paying bills, going to the bank, etc., and of course you know who does more of that stuff, of course? My husband! How do I know that's true? Because HE TELLS ME ALL THE TIME. No matter what I do it's never enough.
We both work at home (when I'm working, which I'm starting to do much more now), often together, which is a recipe for disaster as he mingles our professional and personal lives so much that he's asking me about invoices as I'm climbing into bed (sometimes he nicely waits until I've turned the light off so I can start ruminating about all the things I have to do tomorrow, based on his orders).
Now, I'm just a messy person. I have trouble putting things away, even months later. My house isn't dirty, it is just disorganized at times. (Dang, I have to remember to put that final batch of Christmas decorations away--oh why bother? Christmas is just a few months away and I'll need it again anyway. Maybe I'll find a place for the Easter linens.)
My office is a complete mess and it drives my husband crazy--but it's my office and not his (he has one too) so I tell him to leave it alone. He always is in here straightening something, picking something up off the floor, etc.
I would like to brag that I'm one of those people who appears messy but can put their fingers on the exact piece of information I need at a moment's notice. Nope, I can't do that. Half my life is spent looking for things. You don't have to tell me what all this means, I know it has psychological implications. My philosophy now is, "Hey, if I can't do that or can't find that then there must be a reason why so I should just let it go." How's that for rationalization? (Actually when I find I can't do something there usually is a sound reason for it and I try to deal w/it, or let it go if that's the better choice.)
But what my husband doesn't ever factor into the equation of our life (and its importance) is my time and energy spent nurturing and caring for our three children. They aren't babies anymore (16, 11 and 6), but each one is always going through something that has to be dealt with RIGHT NOW. Also, I deal w/the schools, teachers, music lessons, etc., while he prefers to handle the sporting activities (although he is not a sports guy at all). My husband is a scientist and likes to deal w/the "facts" of the situation w/the kids so I have to patiently deal with their emotions, expectations and the realities of their center-of-the-universe lives. They really are very well adjusted--I've devoted the last 15 years to teaching them all the therapy tricks I've learned so that my money (oh no, it's my husband's money really because he also works harder than I do) hasn't gone to waste.
Efficiency is very important to him, but I fail at it again and again. But that's what makes our lives so interesting. We find our unique ways to drive each other crazy!!
I could go on and on, but I won't.
I try not to play the competitive game w/him anymore because he really does believe he does more (keep in mind that while I'm making light of it, I still do plenty of the heavy lifting around here)but now I really try not to feel guilty about what I'm NOT doing. I'm so much better than last year so I've made progress (hey, I cleaned out my closet two months ago, but yes, there are still some piles in there that need to come up off the floor--just a short bout of mania)and I have to tell myself that for me it's enough; the house is just a house, but my kids are living breathing things that I care about.
I'm not comparing our situations so please don't read anything into this (that old qualifier). I would love to be married to a man who would actually lay around on the weekends. Mine is a "doer" and since he can "do" so many things, he's a busy man. But I love him dearly, faults and all, just as I hope he loves me (it's kind of fun to drive him crazy sometimes, to mess w/his order).
Thanks for the thread. You made me see his perspective a little better.
best,
antigua
Posted by dazedandconfused on September 21, 2004, at 18:18:57
In reply to Guilt and contributions in marriage, posted by Racer on September 20, 2004, at 12:55:38
What a fantastic thread! I echo many of the sentiments of the others. Please don't beat yourself up. My therapist calls it flogging yourself...and I am a world champ. I have not worked in almost 5 years, and quite frankly, don't envision going back very soon. I was a highly functioning majorly depressed person, now I am a barely functioning dysthymic person.
I struggle with this to the extent that I really think I may have ADD. Coupled with a little obsessive compulisve personality disorder (If I can't do it right...I won't do it at all!). I feel busy all day, get nothing done. Get lost for hours on Psychobabble. I do have motivation to go out and do things, and I enjoy doing things. But I tend to not go out and do much because I feel so guilty about what is left undone at home.
I have questioned whether or not I am just being lazy. But I honestly think if we were lazy, we wouldn't be so hard on ourselves and beat ourselves up.
Two things have helped me:
1. Flylady.net - hokey, but actually helpful
2. A cleaning person - Yes, I feel very fortunate to have a cleaning person come on occassion. I can honestly say it has been more helpful to me in some ways than therapy. Its really a cost-benefit analysis - I pay my therapist $100 hour and spend a great deal of time maligning myself about how little I get done and how I can't keep up with the pace of daily living, or spend $40 to have the place cleaned by someone else. From a strictly financial standpoint, it makes sense.
3. Realizing my job is to recover my health. My husband is a very understanding person (thank god!). Quite frankly, I am now a much more pleasant person to be around than when I was working a very stressful career. We both miss my income, but I try to remember that my health is my number one priorty because without it the other stuff doesn't seem to matter very much.Good luck!
dazed
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