![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 19:34:44
I've got some serious relationship problems with my husband right now. We're in a real low spot in our relationship. But it doesn't feel right talking about it on a public internet board. Is it possible to lay out a problem while being respectful of the other party?
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 20:01:03
In reply to I'd like to, but I don't know if I can, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 19:34:44
I've dragged my husband twice to see counselors. Once to see a parenting counselor, once to a joint session with my therapist. It was distressing to me (at least the marriage one was), and provided a h*ll of a lot of amusement to the counselors (my therapist says one of the things my husband said was so funny he'll never forget it), but absolutely no value whatsoever. I'm not being disrespectful to say this because my husband would be the first to cheerfully agree. He hasn't an introspective bone in his body and is rather amazingly literal.
My husband has never been anything close to verbally or physically abusive, but he was using Labrador retriever corrections on my Toy Spaniel of a son. In other words, I've got a very sensitive guy on my hands and a few words about how you'd like something done differently is generally sufficient. While my husband thinks it's his duty to make sure that my son behaves correctly and tends to try to startle him to make him remember. So off to the parenting counselor we went. And she asked "When your son grows up and is no longer in your home, what will make him behave in a responsible manner?" And the answer of course was that he had to have internalized values so that he would effectively choose to make appropriate decisions himself. And my husband just couldn't find that really obvious answer. He answered police, bosses, wife, etc. etc. as the counselor fed him hints until she finally gave up, looked at me in a mixture of amazement and amusement, and gave him the answer.
At the marriage session with my therapist, the therapist asked if my husband had any concerns. Since I was suicidally depressed at the time, he was aiming for concerns about my wellbeing. He said "Is she going to be able to do her wifely duties?" I guess my therapist thought he was bringing up sexual issues, but no - he meant doing the dishes and cooking dinner. The session went on and on like that until I was perched so far at the end of the cushions angled away from him that I almost fell off.
I'm not going through that again. Counselling would be the end of any ability we might have to work things through.
Posted by Racer on September 18, 2004, at 20:59:05
In reply to BTW, counseling is not an option, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 20:01:03
Not thoroughbreds...
Actually, I do have a bit of an answer to that, depeneding on just how your relationship works with him, and how strong you're feeling. It's worked for me a few times, with a few people: just like dog (or horse or child) training, you make sure that their unwanted behavior has no rewards. Easy as that. And, of course, as difficult as that.
I've actually told my aunt that I'm going to apply dog training techniques to her a few times. I've told her what the rules are, and that she'll be asked to leave -- immediately -- for breaking them. Now, if we'd actually had to kick her out, it would have created a major firestorm -- she's not all that good at self-control -- but firm-and-gentle reminders have been enough so far to stop most of the unwanted behavior. Every now and then, she'll test the limits again, but most of the behaviors that I've used this for have not really returned.
The problem, of course, is that the pattern of the relationship is set, so once one behavior changes, it's usually replaced by another equally bad. I've looked for other options, myself -- like your coworker screaming -- but it's still trial and error.
I guess the bottom line, though, is that you can't change someone else's behavior, but if you're dealing with a set pattern of behavior, changing your own behavior will break the routine. If they're not getting the expected response, they can't continue in the same direction.
Best luck, my dear. And don't give up on counselling -- even if he's a total ozone cookie, he can still *learn* to make noises in the sessions. But, if you do, make sure that you're getting a neutral therapist. Your therapist is your turf, and that's gonna be a problem for him...
(And I read what you said about your mother. I'm turning into my mother in some ways, too -- but you know what? I see the things she does -- like having to be perfect first time, or never trying again; starting projects and then giving up because they're not exactly what she wanted -- and so I work very hard at not following the same patterns. I try very hard to finish projects before starting the next -- although I usually have a long term project as well -- and reminding myself that I can do something twice and call it "practice"!)
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 21:51:49
In reply to Sadly, husbands are like mules... » Dinah, posted by Racer on September 18, 2004, at 20:59:05
Hmmm.. I should be able to do this. I was great at natural consequences with my son. And good at training, but only small submissive spaniels, not stubborn dogs. My large and stubborn hound won. :(
Ok, I can see how that would work on some things. Like if I want him to do something or go somewhere I mention it once and let him determine when he can do it. It may take a while, but I understand if he's busy doing something, and I don't see the benefit in being impatient about it. It just leads to bad feelings and generally doesn't get the work done any faster. It's certainly not because he jumps up and does whatever I ask right away. But if he wants me to do something, he'll stand over my head until I do it, and I'm expected to stop mid whatever to do it. No wind up time. When he says hop I'm supposed to hop *now* because he knows what's important to do.
Soooo.... I could tell him I don't like it when he does that, that I don't do that to him, and I expect similar courtesy. And I could tell him that when he does that, I'll set my clock and move precisely fifteen minutes later than I would have had he not behaved that way. And it might work.
But how can I apply the same natural consequences technique to the problem I am most annoyed with at the moment. His utter disrespect bordering on disdain for me. I saw him do it with his mom and grandmother, but I thought I would be different because I was stronger. But no, I'm not. He feels like he is the only person in the world who is at all competent and that the fate of the world rests on his shoulders alone. He cuts me off if I try to suggest something. If I persist, he may eventually admit I have a point. But he'll cut me off the next time just as easily. He talks to me with an overtone of contempt.
It's my fault in part. I was looking for someone with daddyish qualities and I got it. And he is extraordinarily bright and competent. I benefit all the time from that. So the downside has an upside.
But I want to feel like he values my input, even if it's not the same input he would give. And maybe that's the crux of the problem. The only thing he sees value in are the things he would do. He wants me to be more like him, or to obey him well and promptly. One of the two. :(
Maybe I should have paid more attention to the fact that my small submissive dogs were afraid of him, because believe it or not I'm more of a small submissive spaniel than I appear. But it's too late for that.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 21:55:30
In reply to Re: Sadly, husbands are like mules... » Racer, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 21:51:49
He is a good man of integrity. He has many many fine qualities. And I don't know what I'd do without him.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 22:21:27
In reply to Re: Sadly, husbands are like mules... » Racer, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 21:51:49
To be fair, to some extent I deserve the way he treats me. I'm not the most consistently reliable person the way he is. Sometimes I'm completely useless for long stretches of time.
But if the way he treated me were completely my fault, I don't think I'd see so many similarities between the way he treats me and the way he treats his mother and grandmother.
Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2004, at 1:12:09
In reply to And..., posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 22:21:27
We're just in a rough spot because we're under pressure. We'll be ok soon.
Posted by Aphrodite on September 19, 2004, at 12:16:48
In reply to Oh, I take it all back, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2004, at 1:12:09
Don't feel guilty. Don't take it back; you really meant it. It's OK to vent and be frustrated sometimes. It doesn't mean you love him any less.
Posted by 64bowtie on September 19, 2004, at 17:13:41
In reply to I'd like to, but I don't know if I can, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 19:34:44
> Is it possible to lay out a problem while being respectful of the other party?
<<< Where is that threshold point? Could it be talking "as if"? Or perhaps telling a story about an unnamed third party couple?
<<< Great question. Where is the boundary called respect-full-ness?
Rod
Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2004, at 22:20:09
In reply to Re: Oh, I take it all back » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on September 19, 2004, at 12:16:48
I've got some OCD issues directly relating to things like this. It causes me too much anxiety to talk about the important people in my life, and I have to do annoying rituals to undo what I've said. Fortunately I've seemed to exclude my therapist from the OCD bad magic fears, so I do have someone to talk with about my important relationships. I think I'd better leave well enough alone.
Posted by Toph on September 22, 2004, at 16:22:38
In reply to Sadly, husbands are like mules... » Dinah, posted by Racer on September 18, 2004, at 20:59:05
I resemble that that remark! After all, a mule is part horse, part jackass.
Posted by crushedout on September 24, 2004, at 20:56:36
In reply to Re: Sadly, husbands are like mules... » Racer, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 21:51:49
I think that might be bad. How long have you been married? That's neither here nor there, sorry.
Posted by crushedout on September 24, 2004, at 21:02:19
In reply to I think I'll have to avoid this board. » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on September 19, 2004, at 22:20:09
Interestingly, you're also able to talk *about* your therapist without ocd issues, right? so your t gets exempted on both ends, which is also fortunate since you get to discuss issues you have with him on babble.> I've got some OCD issues directly relating to things like this. It causes me too much anxiety to talk about the important people in my life, and I have to do annoying rituals to undo what I've said. Fortunately I've seemed to exclude my therapist from the OCD bad magic fears, so I do have someone to talk with about my important relationships. I think I'd better leave well enough alone.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Relationships | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.