![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 25, 2010, at 9:33:02
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by emmanuel98 on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:48
> Have you ever read Peter Kramer -- Listening to Prozac?
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, a movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though.
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 25, 2010, at 9:33:44
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51
Posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 23:46:12
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:52
Hey Scott, I'm too tired and it's too late to answer all of your questions the way I would like to.
I will say this, I believe that proper parenting and nurturing is much more complex and involved than what you or others may believe it to be. IMO, it takes a whole lot to raise a well rounded individual that loves him/herself the way they need to in order to become a mature, capable, and content individual. It's not just about loving themselves, but also structure as well. I can't get into this now but I will give an example. I can almost guarantee that if we were to delve into the childhood of every person in jail that exhibits and has exhibited sociopathic(or anti-social) behavior, we would find specific aspects of their childhood that contributed to their developing into a sociopath. Is there a genetic component, sure, but most likely there was something/things going on in their development that caused them to become a sociopath. A child that had an abusive alcoholic father that would just beat the sh*t out of them for no good reason and then completely neglect them, not caring at all what they were ever up to, is vulnerable to becoming a sociopath and engaging in sociopathic behavior in their teens and adulthood. This has been studied over and over again. Have you ever listened to Love Line with Dr. Drew? If so, did you ever think it was interesting that with such little information and such a short conversation, Dr. Drew could usually guess what was going on in the caller's childhood that was contributing to their behavior. Maybe this is a crap example. Still, I think the guy knows what he is talking about. Anyway, we can pick up this discussion later and I will get to some of your other questions.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 6:33:25
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 23:46:12
I understand what you are saying.
What is the product of your belief system with regard to affective disorders?
- Scott
Posted by emilyp on April 26, 2010, at 12:51:16
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 0:36:51
I don't mean to be rude, but in my opinion, I agree with your assessment: you are coming off arrogant and unwilling to hear other people.
Some people may agree with you; others may not. Some may partially agree with you. At the same time, isn't it possible that some people want to get on with their lives and not go back to their childhood. I had an alcoholic mother and a father who traveled all the time. Was my childhood perfect - not at all. Did my parents love me - yes, but in the way they could. Did it affect my depression - yes, But was it also biological - yes. Furthermore, despite my parents issues, they had a 40 year marriage and were best friends. So while they each had their own flaws, I also had something to emulate.
Having said all that, both of my parents have passed away. Thus, I need to figure out how to move on in life and for me, I don't think digging up issues from my childhood will help. For me (and I am only speaking for myself), that is a crutch - a way to play a victim and not take the necessary actions. Even if it is true, I cannot do anything about it and moaning over it will not help me with the depression. So, my decision is to work on life skills that I can have an effect on - ones that rely on the people currently in my life and where it will make my life better. My solution also involves medication, which helps a lot.
Pushing this belief that individuals cannot make improvements or even get better if they don't focus on their childhood is short-sighted and unfair to those who believe otherwise.
Posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 20:07:54
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 6:33:25
Good question. I'm having a pretty crappy day-typical fatigue and head clogged misery. So I'm going to come back to this when I feel better.
Morgan
Posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2010, at 20:17:13
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 20:07:54
Hey, Morgan--feel better!
Posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 20:27:25
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by floatingbridge on April 26, 2010, at 20:17:13
> Hey, Morgan--feel better!
Thank You! I really hope to figure out what is going on with me soon.
Posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 20:51:57
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by emilyp on April 26, 2010, at 12:51:16
Well I just left the page and erased the paragraph I wrote in response to you..Ugh.
I'm going to make this brief. I do not think everyone needs to through psychodynamic therapy in order to get better. That said, and I've said this somewhere before, there are many people, including mental health professionals, that believe just about everyone, even those that are not struggling with mental illness, would benefit from some form of therapy.
So it looks like you at least agree with me on a few points.
I think you may have either misunderstood me or I did not fully express my views of how the therapeutic process works-so much for brief. I do not think people should dwell on their past and place blame and become bitter-that would be counterproductive. Unfortunately that is the reaction that many have. In therapy, the goal is to better understand how our past may still be having a negative impact-on the way we feels, on our relationships, in the workplace, in the way we behave, etc. Also, through this better understanding, we find a way to have more compassion for ourselves, work through any inner anger we have been carrying, and work through any sadness we have been carrying. Therapy is not easy. Psychodynamic therapy may not be for everyone. Some may prefer CBT or group therapy or some other form.
I understand where you are coming from. It sounds like you are doing what works for you, which I think is great.
Maybe I am being arrogant. I only said that because I was afraid I was not wording my views in a more presentable manner. Text is surely a difficult way to express yourself.
I will agree that I am being fairly opinionated. Just like you strongly believe in what you expressed, I also strongly believe in what I expressed.
Wow, this took much longer than normal-Painful but I felt like I should better explain myself.
Morgan
Posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 21:23:24
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 6:33:25
Hey Scott I was thinking about the question about evolution. I really don't think evolution prepared us for the kind of stress, trauma, or neglect that contribute to mental illness. I actually think it may be the case that evolution set us up to be treated quite delicately. To make it clear, I speak mostly of emotional stress and trauma, and physical, when it comes from the parents(this has more of an emotional impact than any bumps and bruises).
Man I'm having a hard time articulating the rest of what I want to say. I'll try to make it make sense and keep it simple. In our primitive years, I think moms stayed very close to their children. Of course, the fathers were out hunting and gathering so they did not play the same role as the mothers. Children probably had more stability in many ways than many children in our more civilized years. I think as we developed into more modern man, things began to get more complicated. Basically, what I'm getting at is I think we have primal needs that have remained with us since our primitive years and we are genetically wired for these needs. I do not think we ever really adjusted or adapted to the ways much of the population of modern man began to deviate. Again, I'm racking my hurting brain trying to articulate myself well. To be honest, I really hope we don't ever evolve to be impervious to emotional stress and neglect. Our super sensitive psyche is what makes us so wonderfully human.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 23:58:36
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 21:23:24
> Hey Scott I was thinking about the question about evolution. I really don't think evolution prepared us for the kind of stress, trauma, or neglect that contribute to mental illness.
Evolution generally selects against those traits that lead to a reduction in the rate of successful breeding. I would think that a greater vulnerability to childhood stress in the form of depression early in life would reduce the rate. I guess it all depends upon when the depression emerges. Huntington's Chorea persists because symptoms don't appear until after the age of breeding.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on April 27, 2010, at 0:19:25
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 23:58:36
Good point. I think what I am trying to say is that the emotional stress I speak of did not occur in the same ways or as frequently during our primitive years when we were evolving. I believe we are, as complex as we may be now, still wired in the way we evolved during those primitive years. I just don't think much has changed. We still need close calm contact. We still need consistent emotional connection.
Posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 7:35:21
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 27, 2010, at 0:19:25
> We still need close calm contact. We still need consistent emotional connection.
Do you feel that this is a rare occurrence? Or perhaps it is not so rare in general, but more so in people who end up with major depressive disorder? It would be interesting to know if the rate of depression increases as the psychosocial stresses of modern society increases. It sure looks that way. If the heritability of major depressive disorder remains the same over time, then one would expect that environment plays a large role in the induction of depressive illness. However, I think it requires a leap of faith to conclude that all cases of major depressive disorder occur as the result of maladaptive parenting behavior or other psychosocial stresses. How would such a presumption address things like the occurrences of drug-induced mood episodes or depressions associated with hormonal fluctuations or even strokes? If these biogenic depressions do indeed occur, then I don't understand why one would conclude that all other depressions require psychogenic contributions. Can depressive disorders occur in individuals with psychosocial environments that are considered to be ideal? Never? I honestly don't know. However, that drugs can induce depression in people who have never manifested depression previously casts doubt that psychosocial stress is always necessary to precipitate it.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on April 27, 2010, at 23:42:17
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 7:35:21
Hey Scott I totally agree that there are many cases where depression is caused by some of the things you mentioned. I also believe in some of the causes that BB has spoken of, including Lyme disease.
I think depression can occur in people who's psychosocial environments were near ideal. I just think those people will experience it more briefly and have more armor to defend against it. Even the genetically predisposed, coming from the right environment-plenty of unconditional love, the right amount of structure, very little to no criticism, positive reinforcement, close emotional connection, the right amount of physical intimacy(not talking about sex West Virginia style of course), etc.-will be more likely to be able to live a normal healthy productive life without too much disruption. JMHO.
Morgan
Posted by morganator on April 28, 2010, at 0:00:13
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 26, 2010, at 21:23:24
I wanted to mention something that my therapist and I used to discuss. It mostly revolves around the idea the the mother plays the greatest role in a child's emotional development, especially in the crucial early years. Even if a mother is close to a child, feeding them, dressing them, and bathing them, this does not mean that a child is getting what they need from the mother. One obvious thing is physical contact. The right amount of physical contact is crucial. Then there is the emotional state of the mother. Children are like sponges soaking in everything around them, this includes other people's emotions. Now to you and others may think this is ridiculous, but I and others strongly believe in it. If a mother carries a lot of stress, anxiety, depression, she may be negatively affecting her child. Man I hope I can get me brain back so I can articulate these things better.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:09
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by SLS on April 23, 2010, at 9:00:46
> > Also, I am speaking more of people finding a way to love themselves more, maintain and create positive relationships, the pursuit of things that one is passionate about, etc.
>
> So, are you saying that every person who reports depression lacks these qualities and fails to experience these things?
>
> You describe the evolution of major depression as being multifactorial. Do you believe that there are interindividual differences in the construction of depression, or is depression the result of an unvarying recipe of contributing components?
>
> > And like I said, life is pretty damn depressing if you ask me.
>
> I don't find life to be depressing.
>
> > Maybe many of us very sensitive people are more prone to depression as we find it hard to protect ourselves from the ugly sides of life.
>
> No doubt. However, I venture to guess that there are people who find it hard to protect themselves from such ugliness who never experience major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder. What would render one incapable of this protection? Would depressive biology be a necessary element? Is it possible to be depressed without having having a biological vulnerability? Is it possible to be depressed without having a psychological vulnerability?
>
> > >How is it that two weeks of Prozac treatment can transform a life after two decades of failed psychotherapy?
>
> > ...I think for a large number of people out there that experience this kind of remission with antidepressants, there are still underlying psychological issues that simply need to be addressed.
>
> What makes you say this?
>
> > Unfortunately, sometimes many people feel so good that they end up believing that they do not have any issues and in the long run relationships and other aspects of their life may suffer.
>
> So, again, you believe that all people who have an affective disorder are, and have been, a psychological mess?
>
> > Denial is the single greatest and most powerful coping mechanism we have in our arsenal.
>
> Could you be denying that you walk among people with affective disorders who are not like you?
>
> > It helps to shield us from the pain and sadness deep seated in our psyche, and, prevents us from doing anything about it.
>
> "Us"? Did you mean "you"?
>
> I believe that some people who have unhealthy brains have healthy minds just waiting for a biological opportunity to flourish. Remember, some people with depression spend years in psychotherapy before they encounter a successful somatic treatment. I find it hard to believe that none of these peole have ever successfully addressed their "issues" prior to their biologically-induced remission.
>
> As an aside, I find the overuse of the word "issues" to be very unpalatable. Why must we all have them? We don't. Or perhaps I am in denial.
>
> :-)
>
> A sizeable percentage of women suffer depression invariably premenstrually. I guess they all must have issues?
>
> You don't know me and I don't know you. I think we should entertain the possibility that there be a spectrum of constructions of depression such that we not lump us all into one basket. How damaging it must be for people to be told they have issues to work on when they really don't.
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott and to Lou
Scott your following quote really hits the nail on the head for me and I might assume for others as well.
> You don't know me and I don't know you. I think we should entertain the possibility that there be a spectrum of constructions of depression such that we not lump us all into one basket. How damaging it must be for people to be told they have issues to work on when they really don't.
>To Lou
Lou it is obvious that you have had the ah ha moment in your life that apparently has opened the door of remission for you. But there is a tendency for people to extrapolate their experiences to all and that in my opinion is a big mistake. I think the most we can conclude from your experience is that it may be the answer for some people. I would take Scott's remarks and say at times I find your posts offensive. Please do not make conclusions about my life. We are all unique and so the answers and treatments will be. My observations lead me to the concusion that genetics play a huge role in this broad disease labeled depression.Environment is a big player for others and that would include your ideas.
Please do not extrapolate your ahha moments to be the ahha moment for all of us.
Also I was in therapy for many years and have a very solid undestanding about certain issues but alas no cure. I have reason to believe based on my observations of family members that genetics played a big role in their mental illness.
I often wonder if this is the appropriate forum for discussions of religion and one's own religion. If it is okay for you, than that opens the door for many to begin proselytizing their religion and we probably have many religions in this forum.
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:10
In reply to Re: nothing helps » SLS, posted by bulldog2 on April 25, 2010, at 13:04:10
> > > Also, I am speaking more of people finding a way to love themselves more, maintain and create positive relationships, the pursuit of things that one is passionate about, etc.
> >
> > So, are you saying that every person who reports depression lacks these qualities and fails to experience these things?
> >
> > You describe the evolution of major depression as being multifactorial. Do you believe that there are interindividual differences in the construction of depression, or is depression the result of an unvarying recipe of contributing components?
> >
> > > And like I said, life is pretty damn depressing if you ask me.
> >
> > I don't find life to be depressing.
> >
> > > Maybe many of us very sensitive people are more prone to depression as we find it hard to protect ourselves from the ugly sides of life.
> >
> > No doubt. However, I venture to guess that there are people who find it hard to protect themselves from such ugliness who never experience major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder. What would render one incapable of this protection? Would depressive biology be a necessary element? Is it possible to be depressed without having having a biological vulnerability? Is it possible to be depressed without having a psychological vulnerability?
> >
> > > >How is it that two weeks of Prozac treatment can transform a life after two decades of failed psychotherapy?
> >
> > > ...I think for a large number of people out there that experience this kind of remission with antidepressants, there are still underlying psychological issues that simply need to be addressed.
> >
> > What makes you say this?
> >
> > > Unfortunately, sometimes many people feel so good that they end up believing that they do not have any issues and in the long run relationships and other aspects of their life may suffer.
> >
> > So, again, you believe that all people who have an affective disorder are, and have been, a psychological mess?
> >
> > > Denial is the single greatest and most powerful coping mechanism we have in our arsenal.
> >
> > Could you be denying that you walk among people with affective disorders who are not like you?
> >
> > > It helps to shield us from the pain and sadness deep seated in our psyche, and, prevents us from doing anything about it.
> >
> > "Us"? Did you mean "you"?
> >
> > I believe that some people who have unhealthy brains have healthy minds just waiting for a biological opportunity to flourish. Remember, some people with depression spend years in psychotherapy before they encounter a successful somatic treatment. I find it hard to believe that none of these peole have ever successfully addressed their "issues" prior to their biologically-induced remission.
> >
> > As an aside, I find the overuse of the word "issues" to be very unpalatable. Why must we all have them? We don't. Or perhaps I am in denial.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > A sizeable percentage of women suffer depression invariably premenstrually. I guess they all must have issues?
> >
> > You don't know me and I don't know you. I think we should entertain the possibility that there be a spectrum of constructions of depression such that we not lump us all into one basket. How damaging it must be for people to be told they have issues to work on when they really don't.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Hi Scott and to Lou
>
> Scott your following quote really hits the nail on the head for me and I might assume for others as well.
>
> > You don't know me and I don't know you. I think we should entertain the possibility that there be a spectrum of constructions of depression such that we not lump us all into one basket. How damaging it must be for people to be told they have issues to work on when they really don't.
> >
>
> To Lou
>
> Lou it is obvious that you have had the ah ha moment in your life that apparently has opened the door of remission for you. But there is a tendency for people to extrapolate their experiences to all and that in my opinion is a big mistake. I think the most we can conclude from your experience is that it may be the answer for some people. I would take Scott's remarks and say at times I find your posts offensive. Please do not make conclusions about my life. We are all unique and so the answers and treatments will be. My observations lead me to the concusion that genetics play a huge role in this broad disease labeled depression.Environment is a big player for others and that would include your ideas.
>
> Please do not extrapolate your ahha moments to be the ahha moment for all of us.
>
> Also I was in therapy for many years and have a very solid undestanding about certain issues but alas no cure. I have reason to believe based on my observations of family members that genetics played a big role in their mental illness.
>
> I often wonder if this is the appropriate forum for discussions of religion and one's own religion. If it is okay for you, than that opens the door for many to begin proselytizing their religion and we probably have many religions in this forum.bd2,
You wrote,[...there is a tendency for people to extrapolate their experiances to all and that..is a big mistake...the most we can conclude...I find your posts(redacted by respondent)...do not make...I..have a very solid understanding..but no cure...genetics...discussion of religion...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answerts to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Is there a post by me in this thread as to what experiance am I extrapolating to all, and if so, could you post the link to that post?
B. In,[...the most {we} can conclude...] who are the members in the set of {we}?
C. which posts {in this thread}, if any, did you find (redacted by respondent)
D. Is there a post by me in this thread where I discuss religion?
E. other questions if the above are answerd
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:11
In reply to Re: nothing helps » SLS, posted by bulldog2 on April 25, 2010, at 13:04:10
I could be wrong but I did feel that Lou's only request was to watch a video? I see no religion either? Correct me please if wrong also. Phillipa
Posted by morganator on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:11
In reply to Re: nothing helps » SLS, posted by bulldog2 on April 25, 2010, at 13:04:10
bulldog, I don't claim to know everyone. Just like many believe that in most cases of mental illness there is a genetic predisposition, I and many others believe along with this genetic predisposition there were other variables in early and adolescent development that most likely contributed to that genetic predisposition developing into the monster it ends up being. Look, this is a touchy subject. This is why parents want to think that they are not the problem and that their child just needs to be on medication because they were born a certain way. It's also why many people do not want to go to therapy, get defensive when it is ever is inferred that something from their past may have affected them, and defend their parents saying nothing was wrong with them. Don't you all ever hear people say, "Hey, we all have issues". I know I know, the "issues" thing. Unfortunately that is what people often use to describe it.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:12
In reply to Re: nothing helps » bulldog2, posted by morganator on April 25, 2010, at 23:21:01
> bulldog, I don't claim to know everyone. Just like many believe that in most cases of mental illness there is a genetic predisposition, I and many others believe along with this genetic predisposition there were other variables in early and adolescent development that most likely contributed to that genetic predisposition developing into the monster it ends up being. Look, this is a touchy subject. This is why parents want to think that they are not the problem and that their child just needs to be on medication because they were born a certain way. It's also why many people do not want to go to therapy, get defensive when it is ever is inferred that something from their past may have affected them, and defend their parents saying nothing was wrong with them. Don't you all ever hear people say, "Hey, we all have issues". I know I know, the "issues" thing. Unfortunately that is what people often use to describe
I just lost a full page lol..I think we are like detectives following the facts until we find the truth of what is causing our mental illness. We are not trying to blame anyone but we need the truth to get the best outcome in our treatment.I am not a big believer in cbt for severe situation.
We are the products of genetics and environment. Our personality traits have genetics roots as much as our height and other physical traits. Envirornment helps blend in with the genetic traits. Sometimes environment that be a bigger player in mental illness and sometimes genetics is a bigger player. I think when we have severe mental illness that is inherited from a parent that medication may play a bigger part in the eventual outcome than talk therapy.
Again we are looking for the truth and not putting anyone on trial.
Posted by morganator on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:12
In reply to Re: nothing helps » morganator, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 13:16:17
Cheers to seeking out the truth.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 28, 2010, at 17:41:57
In reply to Re: nothing helps » SLS, posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:09
> at times I find your posts offensive.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Even if you feel offended or think others are jumping to conclusions about you.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by morganator on April 29, 2010, at 1:28:36
In reply to Re: nothing helps » SLS, posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 1:15:09
bulldog, who's post's did you find offensive? Lou's? Scott's?
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 29, 2010, at 13:00:39
In reply to Re: nothing helps, posted by morganator on April 29, 2010, at 1:28:36
> bulldog, who's post's did you find offensive? Lou's? Scott's?
Please don't post anything that could lead others (such as Lou or Scott) to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
Lou and Scott, I'm also sorry if you felt hurt.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 4, 2010, at 10:34:28
In reply to Re: please be civil » morganator, posted by Dr. Bob on April 29, 2010, at 13:00:39
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/946258.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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