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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 16, 2009, at 22:01:11
In reply to Szasz vs Laing, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 21:48:38
What is it you're looking for exactly. I'm kind of confused. There are a ton of good p-docs and therapists out there who are eclectic in approach. But I don't really understand what you're trying to find.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 23:13:28
In reply to Re: Szasz vs Laing, posted by emmanuel98 on November 16, 2009, at 22:01:11
I'm looking for someone:
1. Who knows that crazy-making situations make for crazy people.
2. Has some experience treating schizophrenia and related disorders that constitute a schizophrenia spectrum.
Also someone who is
3.honest and non-manipulative in their approach. I remember one therapist who I had practically bared my soul to. I read her notes and they basically said, "he has a mental illness."
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 17, 2009, at 8:15:41
In reply to radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 0:35:09
Tonight AMC will air a remake of an episode of the The Prisoner called The Schizoid Man. An allegory of man's struggle to maintain identity in an increasing technological age.
When I was an infant my mother would sit me down and have me watch television so that I could "learn english." The effect this style of parenting is having on the modern population is becoming more and more apparent with the increasing number of people who are diagnosed with Aspergers and Schizophrenia.
Only a few weeks ago the Walt Disney Company began offering complete free refunds for its Baby Einstein line of products after a study concluded it impedes language development.
From Wikipedia:
"The study's authors, Drs. Frederick Zimmerman, Dimitri Christakis, and Andrew Meltzoff, concluded that, among infants aged 8 to 16 months, exposure to "baby DVDs/videos" such as Baby Einstein and Brainy Baby was strongly associated with lower scores on a standard language development test." Approximately a third of new mothers use baby Einstein.And then there is the popularity of the band Radiohead. The title of which alludes to the shizoid alienation produced by our media saturated and increasing impersonal loveless society.
Schizoid alienation is pop culture.
The mechanistic cognitive behavioral approach to therapy can not possibly address the schizoid because it is itself a symptom of the schizoid condition.
My (expirable) email is srumervoot@garrifulio.mailexpire.com
Posted by emilyp on November 17, 2009, at 14:34:26
In reply to Re: Szasz vs Laing, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 23:13:28
What your looking for does not seem like anti-psychiatry - it seems like you need a very good, understanding therapist (or perhaps even psychiatrist, as medication might be helpful in this situation).
I am not acquainted with all the references you have made (to specific theories or individuals). But your requirements are not that much different - believe it or not - from someone who suffers from severe depression or manic-depression. It is slightly complicated by the desire to have someone who has experience treating schizophrenia (and if you are needing that, then having someone who can prescribe medication would be important). But shouldn't the issue be less about their exact theory and more about whether they can help you?
Posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 15:54:43
In reply to The Schizoid and Pop Culture, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 17, 2009, at 8:15:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9KYriPbU4
Idioteque
Who's in a bunker?
Who's in a bunker?
Women and children first
And the children first
And the children
I laugh until my head comes off
I swallow till I burst
Until I burst
Until IWho's in a bunker?
Who's in a bunker?
I've seen too much
You haven't seen enough
You haven't seen it
I laugh until my head comes off
Women and children first
And children first
And childrenHere I'm alive
Everything all of the time
Here I'm alive
Everything all of the timeIce age coming
Ice age coming
Let me hear both sides
Let me hear both sides
Let me hear both
Ice age coming
Ice age coming
Throw them in the fire
Throw them in the fire
Throw them in theWe're not scare mongering
This is really happening
Happening
We're not scare mongering
This is really happening
Happening
Mobiles quirking
Mobiles chirping
Take the money and run
Take the money and run
Take the moneyHere I'm alive (background: and first and the children . . .)
Everything all of the time
Here I'm alive
Everything all of the timeHere I'm alive
Everything all of the time
Here I'm alive
Everything all of the timeand first and the children . . .
Posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 16:10:17
In reply to This is really happening, posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 15:54:43
I stopped listening to contemporary music around 1980, so I missed Thom Yorke.....he's really interesting, and there's something from him on the screen in the middle of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BP-LIntM6c
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 17, 2009, at 21:24:59
In reply to Re: Szasz vs Laing, posted by emilyp on November 17, 2009, at 14:34:26
Anti-psychiatry is sometimes known as "critical psychiatry." Its not necessarily strictly opposed to medication. Yet it generally seeks to minimize its usage.
They look at mental illness as being caused by interpersonal and psychological factors rather than physiological/genetic factors.
I also recognize that because schizoid spectrum disorders are relatively rare it won't be easy finding one who is mainstream in his beliefs nonetheless one who is outside the mainstream. (the fear of litigation keeps people from practicing openly) Someone who has done a lot of work with schizoids would be ideal but not necessary.
Also i'm not a schizophrenic. At least nott according to the last diagnosis. I've had numerous conflicting diagnosis's though. I have a number of symptoms which overlap with schizophrenia and that makes it difficult to diagnose me under the DSM system of classification.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 0:24:47
In reply to Re: This is really happening, posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 16:10:17
Erich Fromm on the other hand thinks that we need a New World Order on a global governmental scale to overcome the schizoid condition.
He writes:
In the nineteenth century inhumanity meant cruelty, in the twentieth it meant schizoid self-alienation. Slavery was the danger in the past, but the danger in the future is that man turns into an automaton. And it is all too true that automatons do not revolt. But in view of human nature these automatons cannot live and be healthy. They will turn into 'golems' and destroy the world and themselves because they can no longer stand the boredom of life without meaning.War and automation are our great perils. Our only remaining alternative is to radically leave the wrong path and set foot on the road to human self-realization. The first condition for this is to remove the threat of war that grips us all, and that paralyses faith and initiative. We must take responsibility for all people's lives and internationally develop that which all great countries have established internally up to now, namely a part of prosperity for everyone and a better distribution of the economical sources of prosperity. This should finally lead to the formation of an international economical cooperation, of global government and to full disarmament.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 5:45:10
In reply to Fromm, the Schizoid, and the New World Order., posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 0:24:47
"we are all so much more human than otherwise" - Harry Stack Sullivan.
It seems that some people who've responded to me don't understand what i'm trying to say and what I need. So at the risk of being further misunderstood i'll put it in different words.
It's not that obscure really. Its just that these days were prejudiced to the idea that anything alienating and unsentimental and complicated is scientific.
Our resistance to the human aspect of things has helped us overcome the superstitions of past ages. (who supposedly knew nothing about anything) However that way of seeing things really gets in the way of looking at human beings as human beings. As a result we tend to ignore the actual human processes at work in a person in favor of looking at Drives and Genetic tendencies. So an entire dimension of what is actually going on in a person's life is denied. It may be in front of the therapists or psychiatrists face but if they can't codify those experiences into a scientific model it is simply dispelled as "anecdote" or coincidental.
The stress-diathesis hypothesis of mental illness is an example of this phenomenon of disregarding the actual nature of mental illness. This theory says that early childhood abuse does cause mental illness. But according to the theory childhood abuse doesn't cause mental illness in the way we would instinctively assume. They say its not due to the abuse per se at all. Rather they say it is because abuse causes a dysfunction in the hypothalamus which leads to "vulnerability" to stress. But this theory has never really been proven and in the absence of proof it amounts to a continual betrayal of the psychically ill by the mental health establishment.
Basically most therapists today are trained in a world view that keeps them from being objective and scientific about the human phenomenon.
With the help of the mass media many people are being conditioned to see the world in the same way. Who hasn't heard of the erroneous theory of chemical imbalance?
And yet what is so interesting about that theory is how it appeals to and simultaneously distorts human sentiment. A person who has an imbalance can be understand quite well. They are just like us, all they need is a little tweak. Its so simple and within proportions of human understanding and control. And yet that theory like every other theory of biochemical etiology of mental illness is completely unproven. And while it is appealing it is ultimately doing great harm to humanities concept of self.
So in this day and age to get decent treatment you need a radical.
Posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2009, at 15:14:19
In reply to Fromm, the Schizoid, and the New World Order., posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 0:24:47
This is reminding me of my youth. In 1970 at university all the failed solutions to the problems of Russia were displayed in the propaganda of the various groups, on the left side of which were the self-management groups and the anarchists, and Erich Fromm was the author of choice for the self- management group. In the middle were those Frankfurt School authors who were not widely read, and on the right, Marx, Lenin and (not widely loved) even Stalin. The aristocrats among intellectuals studied medicine and learned German on the side to read Marx in the original. Erich Fromm feels a bit dated now, I don't know why, although I can't fault that first quote. Everyone read him anyway....'Fear of Freedom', 'The Art of Loving'. Cigarettes were 40c a packet and 20c would buy you a fair bit of petrol.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 20:58:27
In reply to Re: Fromm, the Schizoid, and the New World Order. » IntendedMispelling, posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2009, at 15:14:19
That is interesting that you say that because a lot of the psychological stuff i've been reading that has a sociological emphasis is also sometimes very political. Some of it even comes across as a propagandistic. But not all of it is left wing though.
A number of people associated with Szasz have written works which deal with the nature of international terrorism and its seems mostly a pretense to speak on a neo-liberal agenda while arguing against medications under a libertarian rhetoric.
A world where hardline marxists are right wing... Thats amazing.
Posted by Sigismund on November 19, 2009, at 20:53:53
In reply to Fromm, the Schizoid, and the New World Order » Sigismund, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 20:58:27
>A world where hardline marxists are right wing... Thats amazing.
No, truly, I didn't come from such a world. I just meant that at some point I realised that all the (left wing!) radical groups in 1970 could be seen as representative of the history of Russia and the USSR, so I put the anarchists on the left and the Leninists on the right.
Since we were young we were ignorant and snobbish. The feminists weren't good either. I pity their poor fathers now, making the mistake of opening car doors for them. Some parents were baffled and alarmed (dialectic? abolition of private property? how will you eat?).
This was the second most recent bout of utopian enthusiasm from countries with (if I'm not mistaken) a Christian background affecting the assumptions we took for granted. Dealt with beautifully in this song..... It's rather long, I can understand you not wanting to bother (it sometimes causes me physical pain listening to people), nevertheless, here it is, a song about the 70s utopian project, which I love
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 20, 2009, at 0:09:46
In reply to Cygnet Committee » IntendedMispelling, posted by Sigismund on November 19, 2009, at 20:53:53
I've just contacted a number of organizations I found at the webpage for the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology which is an organization founded by Breggin. None of them can do therapy with me because I am too far away.
I'm wondering if I can get get a hold of a therapist that will do Skype?
I mean that can't be completely unheard of right?... if your looking for a kind of therapy that just isn't all that common.
More names and organizations could be very helpful.
Posted by vwoolf on November 20, 2009, at 10:57:00
In reply to radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 0:35:09
I have just come across the website of the International Society for the Psychological Treatment of the Schizophrenias and Other Psychoses. It might be of help to you. http://www.isps.org/index.shtml.
Posted by emilyp on November 20, 2009, at 15:47:11
In reply to Human solutions for human problems., posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 5:45:10
I don't think that everyone thinks the chemical imbalance theory is erroneous. And isn't it possible that mental illness is due to a variety of factors some of which you mention and some of which you personally may not have necessarily experienced. (I have depression and I have had a lot of symptoms but everyone experiences it differently.)
I also think that most experts believe that of all the various types of mental illness, schizophrenia is clearly a chemical/physical issue. (I realize you say that you are not schizophrenic but that you exhibit similar symptoms.) Maybe all of the doctors and therapists that you have contacted seem more focused on medication because it is in fact what you need. But just because they emphasize the medication or physical issues does not necessarily believe they cannot understand the human element. I see a psychiatrist - one well known for psychopharmacology - yet he is a fine therapist and clearly understands the human side of mental illness. I know they are not easy to find, but they do exist.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 21, 2009, at 0:36:39
In reply to Re: Human solutions for human problems., posted by emilyp on November 20, 2009, at 15:47:11
Well according to this scientists don't buy the seratonin deficiency hypothesis.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/516262And yes I imagine there is more than one "factor" involved in mental illness. A personal phsysiological makeup is a factor. But a factor is not the same thing as an explanation. And physical explanations for emotional and mental states simply do not exist and probably will continue to not exist for a long time.
On the other hand in terms of social and moral responses to emotions we all have an understanding of the ways that we respond to those inputs. Sometimes we don't have the whole picture and that is where we attempt to look at things in a broader context that we normally would. A psychologist is someone who understands the social and moral sources of emotion and behavior better than other people. Since we are nowhere anywhere near beginning to understand how the brain produces mental states we should stick to what we know.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 21, 2009, at 23:37:55
In reply to radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 0:35:09
Every single therapist that i've ever had has been dishonest with me in some way or another.
They pretend to understand things that they don't or they misrepresent themselves in ways that makes it impossible to tell what it is that they themselves understand so that I can communicate with them.
I believe that magic happens when a real connection amongst human beings is made.
Real transformation can take place then I believe.
I know that a decent honest therapist is out there because I am a decent honest person myself and I don't want to believe that there is no one out there who is real because I don't want to live in that kind of world.
Do not respond if your only interested in telling me I have "trust" issues because you simply don't understand. Do not tell me to keep on trying or give me reassurance and sympathy, Help me.
Posted by emilyp on November 22, 2009, at 3:32:17
In reply to Where are the honest people in this world?, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 21, 2009, at 23:37:55
I think people have tried to help. Perhaps you need to reflect on what others wrote and maybe take a step back and consider whether they have some valid points.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 22, 2009, at 4:58:08
In reply to Re: Where are the honest people in this world?, posted by emilyp on November 22, 2009, at 3:32:17
I was referring to therapists who have an unconscious or conscious tendency to be insincere/dishonest and not listen to me.They put everything I say into a simplified schema. As a consequence they are unable to understand me and therefor they can not help me.
Sincerity, despite the fact that it is considered to be quaint, old fashion and a little stupid, is really the only way of authentically relating to others. Nobody is too smart or too sophisticated to speak to another person in a way that is straightforward and meaningful.
People in general lack sincerity because they think that being open to anyone (perceived) different from themselves degrades them.
I am glad that I have gotten a number of useful leads from people who have posted to this board but that doesn't mean I'm not still looking. I've also reflected on many of the ideas i've read from other posters. I am very open to other opinions. Just because I disagree with them doesn't mean that I haven't taken them seriously.
I want someone who is aware of how a mental illness relates to the subtleties of social interaction while at the same time strives to avoid participating in those very actions. I want a therapist who can act as my advocate in this world.
For those who have not had this experience in life it is not easy to understand what I am talking about. People who regularly experience some form of sincerity from others can be quite blind to the fact that such interactions don't necessarily characterize everyones world
Its not to much to ask for, but as with anything in life it is not easy to get, and I will have to struggle against the naysayers and the doubters to get what I want.
Posted by Sigismund on November 22, 2009, at 14:08:15
In reply to Re: Where are the honest people in this world? » emilyp, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 22, 2009, at 4:58:08
>I want someone who is aware of how a mental illness relates to the subtleties of social interaction while at the same time strives to avoid participating in those very actions.
I was lucky enough to get that. I don't know how you find decent therapists. An important thing with me was the role of the therapeutic stance....I felt pretty suspicious (with good enough reason) but with my second therapist I eventually became sure that my trust was not misplaced, which was a different issue to whether I got what I wanted. Once she acted as my advocate, but not in the forum of my choice.
I'm off to see my psychiatrist this morning. Maybe I'll encourage him by just mentioning the monoamine hypothesis....that will get him talking about what a load of crap it all is.
(I don't have to try hard....he spontaneously comes up with stuff like 'Did you hear how we're winning the war on cancer'?)
He can talk like that for ages about the profession, and I'm delighted. Once I said 'This is so embarrassing it makes me want to kill myself', and he replied 'Oh no, I think it's fascinating'.
Posted by Sigismund on November 22, 2009, at 15:23:47
In reply to Re: Where are the honest people in this world? » IntendedMispelling, posted by Sigismund on November 22, 2009, at 14:08:15
If the right moment presents itself I might suggest that political and community spirits could be lifted by sending out the police to taser a paedophile.
Posted by Sigismund on November 22, 2009, at 18:27:47
In reply to Re: Where are the honest people in this world? » emilyp, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 22, 2009, at 4:58:08
I didn't mention tasering paedophiles as an instructive spectacle for the masses. There was no need.
At one point he asked me in a dry tone if I had heard that we were getting or carbon emissions reduction scheme legislation through parliament. Later on I said of our parliamentarians
'Can you name me one parliamentary member of the Liberal party (our right wingers) you admire?'
'No'
'None?'
'No'
'What about Bob Brown (leader of the Greens)?'
'No.'
'Really?'
'I wouldn't breathe the same air if I was put in the same room with them.'
So I understood what he was saying....the world is run by clinical psychopaths who self select.There is a point to all this.
We live in a time of greater mass disillusionment and public criminality than at any time in my lifetime and is the way patients speak with their doctors before they get a Valium script here.
You must be able to find someone you don't have to speak with on skype to have a real conversation with.
If not now, when?
Posted by Phillipa on November 22, 2009, at 19:32:57
In reply to Where are the honest people in this world?, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 21, 2009, at 23:37:55
I've had exactly the same experiences with therapists you also have had and yes seen a lot and interviewed a lot also. None got me or what I hoped to accomplish what was truly bothering me. And even forgot at the next meeting what they had suggested. So quit looking and going. Don't have money like that. Phillipa
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 22, 2009, at 21:38:47
In reply to Re: Where are the honest people in this world? » IntendedMispelling, posted by Phillipa on November 22, 2009, at 19:32:57
It is terrible how therapists can charge so much just for the first session. I mean they charge twice as much for an initial session which makes going from one therapist to another difficult.
I would like to think though that the powers of the Internet would help me network and reach out so that I would eventually find that therapist.
And I'd think that a lot of therapists who actually are truly helpful and honest are using Skype already because the know how hard they are to find.I can totally understand why you would give up on having a therapist though.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 22, 2009, at 22:28:12
In reply to Re: Where are the honest people in this world? » IntendedMispelling, posted by Sigismund on November 22, 2009, at 14:08:15
Seriously I am probably just a little too trusting. Like if I sense any degree of sarcasm I'll just let it slide. I mean I think when they are doing stuff like that it means they don't think your entirely oblivious.
But then when you find out a little more about what they literally think your saying you can get a little annoyed. Since you've been trying to say what your trying to say in simple terms it seems a little unfair. After that you think to yourself that the communication would have been a lot easier if an attempt to say what you mean and mean what you say had been tried as an axiom of good practice.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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