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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2009, at 2:47:30
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2009, at 2:10:55
For some reason I like Donald Winnicott
http://changingminds.org/disciplines/psychoanalysis/theorists/winnicott.htm
(but certainly not Masud Khan)
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 6:54:48
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2009, at 2:47:30
Winnicott was an influence on Laings thinking and he was his supervisor early in his early career so its no surprize that Winnicott ideas are in sync with some of the key tenets of antipsychiatry. Another great object relations theorist was Harry Guntrip who like Laing combined object relations theory, the interpersonal approach of harry stack sullivan and a spiritual/existential approach. Harry Guntrip wrote Schizoid Phenomenon Object Relations and the Self which gives a comprehensive theoretical exploration of Schizophrenia sprectrum disorders and their interpersonal context.
Posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2009, at 16:45:41
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition » Sigismund, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 6:54:48
From Uncle Vanya with lots left out.
Sonya is speaking...Uncle Vanya, did you take the morphine?
Give it back. Why do you frighten us. Give it back, Uncle Vanya! I may be no less unhappy than you, but I don't become desperate. I endure and will endure until my life comes to a natural end .... you must endure.
We shall live, Uncle Vanya. We shall live out many days and long evenings; we shall patiently bear the trials fate sends us; we shall labour for others both now and in our old age, knowing no rest and when our time comes we shall meekly die, and there beyond the grave we shall say we have suffered, that we wept, that we were sorrowful, and God will have pity on us, and you and I, dear Uncle shall see a life that is bright and beautiful and full of tenderness with a smile - and we shall rest. I believe that, Uncle, I believe that passionately. We shall rest.
We shall rest. We shall hear the angels, we shall see the whole sky paved with diamonds, we shall see all earthly evil, all our sufferings covered by a sea of mercy which shall fill the whole earth, and our life will become quiet, tender, sweet as a caress. I believe, I believe. Poor Uncle Vanya, you're crying. You've known no joys in your life, but wait, Uncle Vanya, wait ...we shall rest ....we shall rest.
I don't believe a word of it (you don't need to with Chekhov) but it's nice to hear someone say it.
It hasn't much to do with anti-psychiatry....I'm just reading it at the moment.
Posted by henrietta on November 15, 2009, at 19:47:29
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2009, at 16:45:41
I've said it before (I think), and I say it again:
Sig, you are a gift. Thank you. Your head is wonderful. You are a well and truly educated man of great sensitivity, humor, and breadth.
And thanks IntendedMispelling for bringing up that nearly forgotten voice, Laing. He was huge in the development of my understanding of myself and my family, lo those many years ago.
Thank you two. I'm enriched.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 20:45:20
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2009, at 16:45:41
Well I hope I get some relief before I die because the thereafter isn't something i would bank on.
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2009, at 0:56:00
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition » Sigismund, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 20:45:20
>Well I hope I get some relief before I die because the thereafter isn't something i would bank on.
Me too, but I'm not hopeful of getting it here either.
As for the Russians, they got Stalin.
Relief? Is it like Remission?
(Where does that word come from? Remission of sins?)The world is a hell hole.
That's one thing they were right about.
Look at the ground you/I stand on.
Man is a creature that gets used to anything.I like to think that if we are anxious or depressed it's likely for a good reason.
At least we have not been worked to death in the silver mines.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 1:08:38
In reply to radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 0:35:09
By anti-psychiatry i mean "critical psychiatry."
Could someone give the names of anyone in this movement that are living and in active practice?
I've found only a few names. Colin Ross who does a trauma program out in Texas. And a guy named David Small who wrote a book called Stitches. Collin Ross was awarded a Uri Geller prize for his belief that he could shoot beams out of his eyeballs. So I don't know about that guy. Of course there is Breggin but I don't think he does therapy.
Almost certainly there are thousands of therapists and doctors who are antipsychiatry but don't advertise that fact for fear of being shunned or simply because it isn't profitable to do so.
Some other names besides these two could do me a lot of help.
Thanks
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 1:26:00
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2009, at 0:56:00
Your right the word "relief" is a rather queer kind of euphemism isn't it. Its almost apologetic- It seems ashamed to go right out and say what it wants.
Well what I want is life. And thats been taken away from me from by an abusive parent that kept me in a closet all day when I was an infant. Now all I know from that is the post traumatic numbness.
One of the significant features of the schizoid life is continual lack of living emotion. Their is a complete lack of corrective emotions that guide the wondered mind back to course. So I can't say that I agree that life is hell and should be hell. In some sense as a schizoid I am someone who already took that morphine a long long time ago. I'd love to be in hell. (well not really)
Posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2009, at 2:01:32
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 1:26:00
>So I can't say that I agree that life is hell and should be hell. In some sense as a schizoid I am someone who already took that morphine a long long time ago.
I see
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 2:13:33
In reply to Re: radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by Sigismund on November 16, 2009, at 2:01:32
> >So I can't say that I agree that life is hell and should be hell. In some sense as a schizoid I am someone who already took that morphine a long long time ago.
>
> I seeI'm still a believer in hope. Its all I have.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on November 16, 2009, at 9:41:14
In reply to Who are some contemporary anti-psychiatrists?, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 1:08:38
> By anti-psychiatry i mean "critical psychiatry."
>
> Could someone give the names of anyone in this movement that are living and in active practice?
>
> I've found only a few names. Colin Ross who does a trauma program out in Texas. And a guy named David Small who wrote a book called Stitches. Collin Ross was awarded a Uri Geller prize for his belief that he could shoot beams out of his eyeballs. So I don't know about that guy. Of course there is Breggin but I don't think he does therapy.
>
> Almost certainly there are thousands of therapists and doctors who are antipsychiatry but don't advertise that fact for fear of being shunned or simply because it isn't profitable to do so.
>
> Some other names besides these two could do me a lot of help.
>
> Thanks---- Well, this guy isn't in practice but perhaps getting in contact with him would lead to others... Dr. Larry Simon -- he has a sporadic blog-talk show.... called "the stories we live by" you might want to take a listen to some of his programs. He's very anti-psych and was a psychologist for years and years.
would have babblemailed you but seems you don't have it turned on.... you might get some responses that way too-- through "babblemail"... from some that don't care to post, I don't care to post but wanted to help you, so here I am.....
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 11:17:45
In reply to Re: Who are some contemporary anti-psychiatrists?, posted by fleeting flutterby on November 16, 2009, at 9:41:14
Well thank you very much and i'll get my babble mail set up if i can figure out how.
Posted by Phillipa on November 16, 2009, at 18:26:11
In reply to Re: Who are some contemporary anti-psychiatrists?, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 11:17:45
Hope you get responses. Phillipa
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 21:48:38
In reply to Who are some contemporary anti-psychiatrists?, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 1:08:38
Wow I just found another guy who I thought would help me but he responded to my request for therapy in such a sarcastic and disingenuous way.
My problem was that I had mentioned Lidz, Arieti, and R.D. Laing. And the guy subscribes to the Szasz school of mental illness which basically says that theirs nothing wrong with your just being a jerk. So he gives me a lecture on how my "language" is incorrect and he kept using quotation marks inappropriately in his e-mail simply because I used the words "symptoms" and "schizophrenia" in quotations.
He didn't give me any names of new therapists, he just told me to read Szasz and told me that Laing was a "drunken Lout" and a fraud.
Well I worry about Laing's intellectual honesty myself but I don't know if it really matters if his reports on the family life in Sanity, Madness and the Family are true. But then maybe he and Esterson and his colleagues did make everything up and there were no tapes as he claims. And it does matter of course in terms of whether or not he could treat people with Schizoid conditions.
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 16, 2009, at 22:01:11
In reply to Szasz vs Laing, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 21:48:38
What is it you're looking for exactly. I'm kind of confused. There are a ton of good p-docs and therapists out there who are eclectic in approach. But I don't really understand what you're trying to find.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 23:13:28
In reply to Re: Szasz vs Laing, posted by emmanuel98 on November 16, 2009, at 22:01:11
I'm looking for someone:
1. Who knows that crazy-making situations make for crazy people.
2. Has some experience treating schizophrenia and related disorders that constitute a schizophrenia spectrum.
Also someone who is
3.honest and non-manipulative in their approach. I remember one therapist who I had practically bared my soul to. I read her notes and they basically said, "he has a mental illness."
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 17, 2009, at 8:15:41
In reply to radical psychotherapy and the schizoid condition, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 15, 2009, at 0:35:09
Tonight AMC will air a remake of an episode of the The Prisoner called The Schizoid Man. An allegory of man's struggle to maintain identity in an increasing technological age.
When I was an infant my mother would sit me down and have me watch television so that I could "learn english." The effect this style of parenting is having on the modern population is becoming more and more apparent with the increasing number of people who are diagnosed with Aspergers and Schizophrenia.
Only a few weeks ago the Walt Disney Company began offering complete free refunds for its Baby Einstein line of products after a study concluded it impedes language development.
From Wikipedia:
"The study's authors, Drs. Frederick Zimmerman, Dimitri Christakis, and Andrew Meltzoff, concluded that, among infants aged 8 to 16 months, exposure to "baby DVDs/videos" such as Baby Einstein and Brainy Baby was strongly associated with lower scores on a standard language development test." Approximately a third of new mothers use baby Einstein.And then there is the popularity of the band Radiohead. The title of which alludes to the shizoid alienation produced by our media saturated and increasing impersonal loveless society.
Schizoid alienation is pop culture.
The mechanistic cognitive behavioral approach to therapy can not possibly address the schizoid because it is itself a symptom of the schizoid condition.
My (expirable) email is srumervoot@garrifulio.mailexpire.com
Posted by emilyp on November 17, 2009, at 14:34:26
In reply to Re: Szasz vs Laing, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 16, 2009, at 23:13:28
What your looking for does not seem like anti-psychiatry - it seems like you need a very good, understanding therapist (or perhaps even psychiatrist, as medication might be helpful in this situation).
I am not acquainted with all the references you have made (to specific theories or individuals). But your requirements are not that much different - believe it or not - from someone who suffers from severe depression or manic-depression. It is slightly complicated by the desire to have someone who has experience treating schizophrenia (and if you are needing that, then having someone who can prescribe medication would be important). But shouldn't the issue be less about their exact theory and more about whether they can help you?
Posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 15:54:43
In reply to The Schizoid and Pop Culture, posted by IntendedMispelling on November 17, 2009, at 8:15:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9KYriPbU4
Idioteque
Who's in a bunker?
Who's in a bunker?
Women and children first
And the children first
And the children
I laugh until my head comes off
I swallow till I burst
Until I burst
Until IWho's in a bunker?
Who's in a bunker?
I've seen too much
You haven't seen enough
You haven't seen it
I laugh until my head comes off
Women and children first
And children first
And childrenHere I'm alive
Everything all of the time
Here I'm alive
Everything all of the timeIce age coming
Ice age coming
Let me hear both sides
Let me hear both sides
Let me hear both
Ice age coming
Ice age coming
Throw them in the fire
Throw them in the fire
Throw them in theWe're not scare mongering
This is really happening
Happening
We're not scare mongering
This is really happening
Happening
Mobiles quirking
Mobiles chirping
Take the money and run
Take the money and run
Take the moneyHere I'm alive (background: and first and the children . . .)
Everything all of the time
Here I'm alive
Everything all of the timeHere I'm alive
Everything all of the time
Here I'm alive
Everything all of the timeand first and the children . . .
Posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 16:10:17
In reply to This is really happening, posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 15:54:43
I stopped listening to contemporary music around 1980, so I missed Thom Yorke.....he's really interesting, and there's something from him on the screen in the middle of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BP-LIntM6c
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 17, 2009, at 21:24:59
In reply to Re: Szasz vs Laing, posted by emilyp on November 17, 2009, at 14:34:26
Anti-psychiatry is sometimes known as "critical psychiatry." Its not necessarily strictly opposed to medication. Yet it generally seeks to minimize its usage.
They look at mental illness as being caused by interpersonal and psychological factors rather than physiological/genetic factors.
I also recognize that because schizoid spectrum disorders are relatively rare it won't be easy finding one who is mainstream in his beliefs nonetheless one who is outside the mainstream. (the fear of litigation keeps people from practicing openly) Someone who has done a lot of work with schizoids would be ideal but not necessary.
Also i'm not a schizophrenic. At least nott according to the last diagnosis. I've had numerous conflicting diagnosis's though. I have a number of symptoms which overlap with schizophrenia and that makes it difficult to diagnose me under the DSM system of classification.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 0:24:47
In reply to Re: This is really happening, posted by Sigismund on November 17, 2009, at 16:10:17
Erich Fromm on the other hand thinks that we need a New World Order on a global governmental scale to overcome the schizoid condition.
He writes:
In the nineteenth century inhumanity meant cruelty, in the twentieth it meant schizoid self-alienation. Slavery was the danger in the past, but the danger in the future is that man turns into an automaton. And it is all too true that automatons do not revolt. But in view of human nature these automatons cannot live and be healthy. They will turn into 'golems' and destroy the world and themselves because they can no longer stand the boredom of life without meaning.War and automation are our great perils. Our only remaining alternative is to radically leave the wrong path and set foot on the road to human self-realization. The first condition for this is to remove the threat of war that grips us all, and that paralyses faith and initiative. We must take responsibility for all people's lives and internationally develop that which all great countries have established internally up to now, namely a part of prosperity for everyone and a better distribution of the economical sources of prosperity. This should finally lead to the formation of an international economical cooperation, of global government and to full disarmament.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 5:45:10
In reply to Fromm, the Schizoid, and the New World Order., posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 0:24:47
"we are all so much more human than otherwise" - Harry Stack Sullivan.
It seems that some people who've responded to me don't understand what i'm trying to say and what I need. So at the risk of being further misunderstood i'll put it in different words.
It's not that obscure really. Its just that these days were prejudiced to the idea that anything alienating and unsentimental and complicated is scientific.
Our resistance to the human aspect of things has helped us overcome the superstitions of past ages. (who supposedly knew nothing about anything) However that way of seeing things really gets in the way of looking at human beings as human beings. As a result we tend to ignore the actual human processes at work in a person in favor of looking at Drives and Genetic tendencies. So an entire dimension of what is actually going on in a person's life is denied. It may be in front of the therapists or psychiatrists face but if they can't codify those experiences into a scientific model it is simply dispelled as "anecdote" or coincidental.
The stress-diathesis hypothesis of mental illness is an example of this phenomenon of disregarding the actual nature of mental illness. This theory says that early childhood abuse does cause mental illness. But according to the theory childhood abuse doesn't cause mental illness in the way we would instinctively assume. They say its not due to the abuse per se at all. Rather they say it is because abuse causes a dysfunction in the hypothalamus which leads to "vulnerability" to stress. But this theory has never really been proven and in the absence of proof it amounts to a continual betrayal of the psychically ill by the mental health establishment.
Basically most therapists today are trained in a world view that keeps them from being objective and scientific about the human phenomenon.
With the help of the mass media many people are being conditioned to see the world in the same way. Who hasn't heard of the erroneous theory of chemical imbalance?
And yet what is so interesting about that theory is how it appeals to and simultaneously distorts human sentiment. A person who has an imbalance can be understand quite well. They are just like us, all they need is a little tweak. Its so simple and within proportions of human understanding and control. And yet that theory like every other theory of biochemical etiology of mental illness is completely unproven. And while it is appealing it is ultimately doing great harm to humanities concept of self.
So in this day and age to get decent treatment you need a radical.
Posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2009, at 15:14:19
In reply to Fromm, the Schizoid, and the New World Order., posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 0:24:47
This is reminding me of my youth. In 1970 at university all the failed solutions to the problems of Russia were displayed in the propaganda of the various groups, on the left side of which were the self-management groups and the anarchists, and Erich Fromm was the author of choice for the self- management group. In the middle were those Frankfurt School authors who were not widely read, and on the right, Marx, Lenin and (not widely loved) even Stalin. The aristocrats among intellectuals studied medicine and learned German on the side to read Marx in the original. Erich Fromm feels a bit dated now, I don't know why, although I can't fault that first quote. Everyone read him anyway....'Fear of Freedom', 'The Art of Loving'. Cigarettes were 40c a packet and 20c would buy you a fair bit of petrol.
Posted by IntendedMispelling on November 18, 2009, at 20:58:27
In reply to Re: Fromm, the Schizoid, and the New World Order. » IntendedMispelling, posted by Sigismund on November 18, 2009, at 15:14:19
That is interesting that you say that because a lot of the psychological stuff i've been reading that has a sociological emphasis is also sometimes very political. Some of it even comes across as a propagandistic. But not all of it is left wing though.
A number of people associated with Szasz have written works which deal with the nature of international terrorism and its seems mostly a pretense to speak on a neo-liberal agenda while arguing against medications under a libertarian rhetoric.
A world where hardline marxists are right wing... Thats amazing.
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