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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
Or think he's an *ss. One of the two.
Fortunately it passes. I'm on my way to a nap and when I wake up, I'm sure I won't be angry.
Fire drill at his highrise office today. Naturally during my time. Down many many flights of steps, out the emergency door, past an alcove that stunk like vomit, then a while spent making small talk with my therapist, which is surprisingly uncomfortable. At least they had the fans blowing in the stairwell so that wasn't that bad.
I'm parked in the parking garage, so I can't just leave. But when they motion us back in at quarter to, and the great mass of a skyscraper full of office workers start streaming back, I say I think I'll just head on home.
He asked me if I wanted to give him his check there.
Really.
Fifteen or so minutes into the session, the fire alarm sounds. We spend the rest of the time in a highly anxiety producing environment. And with quarter hour left he expects me to overcome my anxiety of being closely packed with others to squeeze into an elevator of hot sweaty exasperated workers to go back to his office so I can pay him.
Really.
As it turned out, the elevators weren't too bad because someone was counting the people allowed in each. But I was red faced with pressure building in my head by the time we arrived. He asked if it was better with him being there. And honestly if anything it was worse, because I wasn't able to zone out as completely.
But when he asked for his fee, out there on the street, I hated him for a quick moment. Or thought he was the worst businessman ever. Would he have asked for his full fee from a new client? Would he be so foolish as to jeopardize a relationship for the almighty $$$'s from one interrupted session? Shouldn't he be apologizing and assuring his client that he would not, of course, charge the full fee. Does he consider the fact that he didn't desert me to go eat lunch or something during the drill adequate service?
It's not the frickin' money. It's the attitude. I am well aware he only sees me for the money. I always laugh about the fact that of course he loves me. What's not to love. I see him twice a week, pay him for the privilege (and quite a bit more than his usual insurance clients), and adore him the entire time. But to be so crass...
In the end, he did offer to take only half a session fee for this session. I had been hinting that I was upset that therapy ended this way and I was going to be upset until I saw him next. He asked if I wanted to see him the next day and I answered that I felt a bit reluctant to spend an extra $110 to process the disturbed session I already paid $110 for the privilege of having. And he said that he thought it was fair for me to only pay for the half session we did have.
I'm taking a nap now. When I wake up, I'm sure this will all seem quite amusing to me.
Right now it doesn't.
Really.
Posted by twilight on May 12, 2009, at 12:30:42
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
Hi Dinah, as I read your post, I thought perhaps you might talk with him about this. I think I would have felt the same as you, that it was crass to ask for the fee in that situation. Maybe if you were a patient/client who didn't go that often, fine, but you see him every week right? So certainly, even under the circumstances, he could have waited another week, and then given you a half session extra or something if he wanted to charge full fee. If it's you ending early or being late for a session, yes he should keep full fee. If it's him being late or ending early or circumstances like what happened, then he should not charge full fee. You definitely might think about being assertive in this instance with him. Don't let him get away with it.
Posted by 10derHeart on May 12, 2009, at 12:33:48
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
I could take 100 naps and afterwards I still wouldn't find it amusing.
I know he's wonderful overall, and you love him, and he's so good for you, and he has MANY good and useful qualities.
BUT...
Being sensitive, reasonable and not crass around money stuff isn't one of those qualities, based on your posts over the years,
No doubt Poet may come by to give a cyber-slap to his head....which he richly deserves.
What a crappy turn of events. Well, maybe some interesting fodder will come out of the uncomfortableness of small talk, or the elevator stuff, or something else? And the check stuff will fade away?
PS - I don't agree he only sees you for the money. They have to get paid, and following that logic most therapists then see mostly all their clients **just** for the money. Teachers teach their kids *just* for the money...I won't go on...;-) I can see why you'd strongly feel that way today, though. And yes, I know you're going to remind me if you couldn't pay, he'd **never** see you again, although I'm not as sure as you are about that. Which I realize makes little sense as you know him intimately and I don't at all, but still....
Posted by Phillipa on May 12, 2009, at 12:48:19
In reply to Re: I loathe my therapist sometimes. » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on May 12, 2009, at 12:33:48
Dinah I'd tell him it hurt to think all he wanted was the money and with all that stress that is so unfair. Hopefully he will see it was not right. Don't or couldn't he send a bill for session time? Phillipa
Posted by workinprogress on May 12, 2009, at 13:00:57
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
Dinah-
That sounds HORRIBLE! I am so sorry! I can't believe he charged you at all. It doesn't sound to me like you really got any therapy today at all. Because what you did get was negated by the disruption. While it isn't his fault, it's not your fault either.
I go with he sometimes acts like an *ss or doesn't always empathize well or think through the situation. Anyway, I think you have every right to feel what you're feeling. I understand not wanting to spend money on discussing the disruption, but it does sound like there's a bit of a rupture here that might be useful to discuss. Weird... I feel strange offering suggestions to DINAH. ;)
Anyway, I'm sorry, sounds awful and I would feel the same way...
-WIP
> Or think he's an *ss. One of the two.
>
> Fortunately it passes. I'm on my way to a nap and when I wake up, I'm sure I won't be angry.
>
> Fire drill at his highrise office today. Naturally during my time. Down many many flights of steps, out the emergency door, past an alcove that stunk like vomit, then a while spent making small talk with my therapist, which is surprisingly uncomfortable. At least they had the fans blowing in the stairwell so that wasn't that bad.
>
> I'm parked in the parking garage, so I can't just leave. But when they motion us back in at quarter to, and the great mass of a skyscraper full of office workers start streaming back, I say I think I'll just head on home.
>
> He asked me if I wanted to give him his check there.
>
> Really.
>
> Fifteen or so minutes into the session, the fire alarm sounds. We spend the rest of the time in a highly anxiety producing environment. And with quarter hour left he expects me to overcome my anxiety of being closely packed with others to squeeze into an elevator of hot sweaty exasperated workers to go back to his office so I can pay him.
>
> Really.
>
> As it turned out, the elevators weren't too bad because someone was counting the people allowed in each. But I was red faced with pressure building in my head by the time we arrived. He asked if it was better with him being there. And honestly if anything it was worse, because I wasn't able to zone out as completely.
>
> But when he asked for his fee, out there on the street, I hated him for a quick moment. Or thought he was the worst businessman ever. Would he have asked for his full fee from a new client? Would he be so foolish as to jeopardize a relationship for the almighty $$$'s from one interrupted session? Shouldn't he be apologizing and assuring his client that he would not, of course, charge the full fee. Does he consider the fact that he didn't desert me to go eat lunch or something during the drill adequate service?
>
> It's not the frickin' money. It's the attitude. I am well aware he only sees me for the money. I always laugh about the fact that of course he loves me. What's not to love. I see him twice a week, pay him for the privilege (and quite a bit more than his usual insurance clients), and adore him the entire time. But to be so crass...
>
> In the end, he did offer to take only half a session fee for this session. I had been hinting that I was upset that therapy ended this way and I was going to be upset until I saw him next. He asked if I wanted to see him the next day and I answered that I felt a bit reluctant to spend an extra $110 to process the disturbed session I already paid $110 for the privilege of having. And he said that he thought it was fair for me to only pay for the half session we did have.
>
> I'm taking a nap now. When I wake up, I'm sure this will all seem quite amusing to me.
>
> Right now it doesn't.
>
> Really.
Posted by raisinb on May 12, 2009, at 13:24:31
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
GRRRRR. I can see how that would've just made me want to kick him in the face.
Is it possible he was (completely clumsily) trying to respect your desire to leave because staying would have been so anxiety-producing for you? It *could* have been a caring act.
Posted by yellowbird01 on May 12, 2009, at 15:28:06
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
A big >:( at your therapist for that!
I'd have been unhappy too.
Hope you're feeling better after your nap. Given what you've said about your relationship with your therapist in the past, I hope you're able to talk with him about it sometime soon. Even if he wont back off his position, he needs to at least know how that felt to you. Given the responses here, you're obviously not the only one that would feel the way you did!
Posted by Annierose on May 12, 2009, at 17:52:25
In reply to Re: I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by yellowbird01 on May 12, 2009, at 15:28:06
Oh my! That comment would have my gut wrenching with anger.
I do agree with tender that he doesn't see you "just" for the money. If I thought that was the sole motivating factor for my therapist to do her job then I doubt I could continue working with her. And I do not think it's his main motivation either - - - although it is high on his priority list.
I hope you agreed to his offer of a reduce fee.
My therapist once arrived at her office building at the same time I did and we avoided small talk altogether as I realized how extremely awkward it felt seeing her outside her office. I am proud of you that you were able to attempt the social chit-chat. That took a certain level of social comfort. I probably would have said "I'm going to stand over there so I can be by myself."
Where is Poet to issue his cyber slaps?
I guess they don't teach that moment in therapist school.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 12, 2009, at 18:03:11
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
It doesn't seem amusing to me either, Dinah. But I also know how horrible it feels to be mad at our Ts, so I hope you do find it amusing post-nap.
Although I would have balked at half the fee. That totally doesn't count as a session. And it's his building, so HIS responsibility. Not yours.
Posted by obsidian on May 12, 2009, at 18:32:30
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
that's ridiculous Dinah, really
to pay that amount of money for 15 minutes followed by the privilege of participating in a fire drill. WTF?
Posted by raisinb on May 12, 2009, at 21:19:12
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
are there fire drills in an office building anyway? This isn't third grade. Unless it was a legitimate alarm, that's weird.
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
In reply to and why on earth, posted by raisinb on May 12, 2009, at 21:19:12
I'm not enraged anymore.
But when my husband, who is not particularly intuitive, came home he asked "What's wrong? Did something happen in your session this morning?"
Odd. I wonder if I have a separate sad face for therapy related problems.
I don't know. I'm contenting myself right now with considering him a very foolish businessman. After all, my product loyalty comes not so much from when things go smoothly as from how management handles things when they go badly. It was stupid of him to make that statement. It was the mark of poor management decisions.
And yes, it was also crass and insensitive.
I can't imagine that I idealize him. He makes that way too hard.
Thank you guys so much for responding. At first he seemed so outraged by the idea that I didn't think he deserved to be paid that I sort of backed off until I had a chance to think. Y'all have helped me think.
Does it seem crazy that at present I want to punish him by insisting on paying the full fee? Not that he'll recognize it as punishment. He'll likely consider me a gracious and understanding client who understand how much this wasn't his fault. But on my end, I think it will wedge a little distance between us, and at this moment a little distance doesn't sound half bad. But that may be falling a bit short in the generosity of spirit I'm trying to learn to cultivate.
Posted by twilight on May 12, 2009, at 21:52:09
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
No Dinah, don't give him the satisfaction of paying the full fee. Call him on it, speak your mind and make sure he understands how inappropriate it was. I'm sure he's wonderful and all as a therapist but being a bad businessperson (or not) is no excuse.
Posted by Tabitha on May 12, 2009, at 22:30:27
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
It's really too much to pay half. You didn't get a half-session. Time spent in the fire drill is not therapy. If he wants full payment he should make up the missed minutes someplace. Can he give you an extra-long session sometime?
Posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:42:14
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
I have to point out that guilt is not an effective punishment in these situations. If you pay him the full fee, he will not feel guilty. So you will have attempted to shame him, and he won't take the bait. I'd hang on to your money.
Perhaps you could put on your own therapist hat here and wonder (out loud of course) what he feels you worked on or accomplished in your last session? Be curious with him - did he earn a full fee? If so, why does he think he did? Who is responsible for the frame, including fire drills?
But don't hurt yourself to hurt him. It isn't worth it.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 13, 2009, at 0:16:33
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
Dinah,
First of all, OMG!!!! about all of it. The money thing is big, of course, but I'm still stuck back on the experience of the fire drill. AAACKK.Secondly, what 10derHeart said about your T's motivation for seeing you has to be right on and was beautifully said.
Thirdly, I LOVE what Daisym has suggested. TOTALLY. I mean, I especially like the idea of coming to it from a curiosity perspective. They are always telling us to do that! Who does work for who anyway?
Lastly, everyone on this board is SO INCREDIBLE. Wait, I'll make a new thread about that.
Anyway, I'm sorry this happened. I totally get why you would have felt like you did and sure hope that some resolution can come of it.
FMD
Posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 1:35:45
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
It IS funny in a sort of "can you believe the nerve of this guy" sort of way.
Not to fan the flames but I wonder if he knew about the fire drill. Office buildings I worked in notified the tenants of drills in advance. I remember being at one medical office when they were having a drill in the building and we were advised to ignore it. Patients were not expected to get dressed and participate in the drill. At places I worked people in the middle of projects or meetings also ignored the drills. I wonder if all therapists would choose to participate in the drill.
> Does it seem crazy that at present I want to punish him by insisting on paying the full fee? Not that he'll recognize it as punishment. He'll likely consider me a gracious and understanding client who understand how much this wasn't his fault.
Yes! It seems crazy. It also seems totally normal and something I would do. (which means it probably IS crazy). Don't do it!
It's not his "fault" any more than it would be his fault if he were out sick but it IS his responsibility. One of the things your fee pays for is the office for the therapy to take place in. He couldn't provide that so he couldn't provide the therapy. You are not his income insurance policy!
>But on my end, I think it will wedge a little distance between us, and at this moment a little distance doesn't sound half bad. But that may be falling a bit short in the generosity of spirit I'm trying to learn to cultivate.
If it were me the demand for payment alone would be enough to drive a bit of a wedge. But I think you should show some generousity of spirit and treat him as if he were a reasonable professional Refuse to pay him at all! If he objects suggest that he really needs to get some professional advice on this matter. I wonder if he's ever been in this situation before. You've built a very strong relationship with him over the years. It would be honoring that relationship to explain to him that this is not an acceptable way to behave with you (or with anybody else). Who else would care enough to tell him?
Finally I don't think I'd interpret this as meaning he doesn't care about you. He sounds like the kind of person who demands money from everyone. You know, the ones who if they had to drive their sister to the grocery store would charge for both gas and their time and assume that everyone else did the same. I once had a friend like this. Great person, and a good friend, except was raised with some very wierd ideas about the role of money in friendships.jane
Posted by seldomseen on May 13, 2009, at 9:50:53
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
Well, I certainly agree that it was an inappropriate, ham-handed, ill-timed request.
I would have been mad as well, but like you I could *probably* separate the fiduciary relationship between the therapeutic one.
But that is a *big* probably, the two, unfortunately intrude on each other all too often.
I think it is a bad idea to pay him the full fee for the interrupted session. I would explain to him why I felt that way, preferably outside of a session.
I do think your therapist will come around and apologize for his mistake.
I will admit, I'm waiting on Poet's cyberslap as well.
Seldom
Posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 14:34:05
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
Dinah,
FWIW I think you should only pay for the time that you actually received therapy. Therapy is a contractual service. You pay for the service and he provides his time and the space. I think you both have to respect the frame in a case like this. Personal fault really doesn't come into it. If you are sick and have to cancel at the last minute, it's not your fault but you still (depending upon what the frame is) may need to pay for the missed session because it's your side of the contract. If his office, or he himself, is suddenly unavailable, he is not providing his contracted service regardless of whether it is his fault or not.
Although we all may hate the frame at times, it does serve to protect us as well. And it helps to keep the fiduciary considerations minimized in the relationship. It sounds like that might be especially helpful in this case. Using money for love, guilt, or other purposes just doesn't seem like a good idea for the therapy.
Mollie
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 13, 2009, at 15:22:22
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
How are you today, Dinah? Any resolution?
I'm thinking about you. Wish I could slap him upside the head for you (no incivility intended, though).
(((((((Dinah)))))))
Posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 15:34:02
In reply to Re: I apparently haven't slept enough yet » Dinah, posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 14:34:05
You mentioned that your sessions are not paid for by insurance. But maybe insurance is one way to think about things.I am no fan of the insurance industry, to put it mildly. But I have also never been a fan of providers who bill for services not provided. My daughter once had a T (for a very short time!) who started his sessions often 20-30 min late and ended promptly on time - and billed insurance for the full hour. If I had kept good records I would have reported him for his ethics, or lack thereof.
I'm not saying your T is unethical. I'm just wondering if this could be another way to look at the situation.
Just a thought.
Posted by Dinah on May 13, 2009, at 21:03:58
In reply to one other thought..., posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 15:34:02
He totally got it.
I told him I wasn't inclined to take my therapist's offer to pay half, and he started singing the Church Lady song. He's right. Fiftyfive dollars is a small price to pay for moral superiority. A bargain even.
My therapist could well blow the entire session fee on a dinner and movie in one evening. While my contempt for him as a person who tries to get the last dollar from a client no matter what the right thing to do may be will last forever.
Sigh. But Mollie is right. It's not good for the therapy relationship. And Daisy, you have a point too. I'd be interested to know how he thinks he deserves it.
At the moment, though, I suppose I'm a bit curious why I took it so badly and got quite as angry as I did. After all, he didn't give me any information I didn't already have. As many of you noted from my posts over the years, he is frequently insensitive and he likes money a lot. *A lot*. I know this and I love him anyway. I appreciate his finer qualities, but I am fully cognizant of his less fine qualities.
Does this mean I've slept enough? Have I dissociated myself from the rage? Or have I put everything in perspective and realized that I overreacted? I'm really not sure.
I may talk to him about it, or I might not. At the moment, I think his thoughts are trending to "I'm going to make sure I cancel with her next time there's a fire drill. She sure is kicking up a fuss, and it's easier to just avoid the whole thing." And mine might be trending to "It might not be worth the bother. It's easier to just avoid the whole thing."
And be happy I have a husband who knows me so darn well, and is with me anyway. For no money at all.
And boy, my lower thighs really hurt. Apparently a distinct set of muscles is involved in walking down stairs, and my legs are not used to using those muscles.
Thanks everyone. :) It's so nice to have you guys.
Posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 23:53:02
In reply to And I love my husband especially sometimes, posted by Dinah on May 13, 2009, at 21:03:58
>
> And boy, my lower thighs really hurt. Apparently a distinct set of muscles is involved in walking down stairs, and my legs are not used to using those muscles.
Aha! That's the explanation. We've all heard endlessly how exercise cures just about everything. This is a brand new, cutting edge therapy that synergisticly incorporates exercise directly into the therapy session.Therapists! Are you tired of feebly suggesting that a little exercise might help while knowing that your clients are going straight home to eat ice cream from the carton while complaining about therapy on line? Tempted to tip your lumpish clients out of their chairs and MAKE them do something? Try out new and improved therapy / physical trainer combo model. Benefits include clients too tired to phone you after hours, improved cardio fitness for the therapist, and an acceptable outlet for those stray urges to really see the client wince. Double billing may also be possible for clients who have fitness incentive programs through work or insurance. Call our 800 number today to become a certified STAIR model therapist. Mastercard/Visa accepted.
Be grateful you weren't charged extra for this new double therapy Dinah.
jane
(yes, going down stairs is way worse than going up)
Posted by Dinah on May 14, 2009, at 9:06:06
In reply to Re: And I love my husband especially sometimes » Dinah, posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 23:53:02
rofl.
Jane, you are good for me. I wonder if he'll think of such a good reason.
I wonder if I've shifted the pendulum too far to the other side. I don't think I overreacted on the anger, but maybe on the hate. I guess it's never pleasant to be reminded that someone you love isn't the person you wish they were. Particularly when it involves them being paid to see you. It's bound to provoke primitive reactions, no matter how accepting I am of his foibles.
I hate to talk about these things with him, but maybe I will.
I still can barely sit or stand, and hop in pain on any downward steps. He's not in particularly good shape either. I wonder if he's hurting as badly as I am. My husband said I kept waking him up all night yelping and moaning, even after Advil. That should wear off soon though, I'd think. A couple of days is all it lasts.
Posted by antigua3 on May 14, 2009, at 19:35:55
In reply to Re: And I love my husband especially sometimes » Dinah, posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 23:53:02
You had me laughing out loud.
Thank you, thank you, thank you...
antigua
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