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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
Yet a simple reed diffuser might do it.
Those things can easily scent a conference hall. In a teensy room, the scent is overwhelming. My poor therapist must be greatly lacking in olfactory acuteness.
It was distracting, then nauseating, and now I have a migraine. I did of course mention it, because when I started to feel ill, I figured that honesty might be better than good manners. He offered to put it on the bottom shelf when I was there. I don't really think that will help. Over an hour after I left, I still reek.
If his other office is also so perfumed, I don't know what I'm going to do. The benefits I get from therapy will surely be overcome by my reluctance to feel ill every time I go there.
Posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2009, at 12:46:49
In reply to And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
Dinah you're saying he has scents in his office that are strong? If not apologize as haven't been following. But if that's the case could he have lack of taste and smell? I lost mine 5 years ago no one knows why two specialists and two trips one to DC and the other to Wake Forrest Medical Center. And it's just gone. So maybe he doesn't smell it? Sounds strange posting it here but it's a topic on my mind a lot. Just ignore if wrong. Sorry about the migraine. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:53:27
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2009, at 12:46:49
I was surprised that he had it there. He'd told me he had scented candles in his office years ago, but that some clients had found it uncomfortable. So when I came this time and it was there, I was very much surprised.
I don't think he's unable to smell. But I do think he has a rather limited sense of smell. He must.
It wasn't an inherently unpleasant odor. But someone passing by with perfume is likely to set me to sneezing. A heavy room order generally makes me feel sick, and we have to be very careful even in the larger context of our house. There are a few products that don't make me sick, but not many.
I generally use Bath and Body Works soaps because I don't get sick smelling myself with them, and I found out I can even tolerate some of their candles and home scents.
I've printed out some literature on scent and migraines and am debating whether to email it to him (he does not encourage me to email him) or whether to bring it next time.
Posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2009, at 13:18:19
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:53:27
Not sure of his age but as we age talking late 60's 70's do develop less sense of smell. But funny you mention Bath And Body Works my Youngest manages one near here about 20minutes away. And I can't smell the products used to use them all the time. Have you tried Origins? But yes smells trigger migraines among other things. Delicate situation. Does he smoke? As if so some others may have complained about smoke odor? Just throwing stuff out ther in cyber land. Love Phillipa
Posted by DAisym on February 3, 2009, at 15:57:59
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2009, at 13:18:19
It is actually an ADA issue Dinah. He needs to make sure his office "does no harm" to clients. Since you are so strongly affected, he should at the minimum remove it to the hallway prior to your arrival.
Don't they get it? They are not allowed to change anything - ever! (unless we don't like it.)
Ug.
Posted by rskontos on February 3, 2009, at 16:04:27
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by DAisym on February 3, 2009, at 15:57:59
Dinah,
I am with you on this. Smells make me sick too. I get migraines even with my topamax on board. Ugg.
I would probably feel like throwing up. I often have to have a scarf or use my jacket when I walk through the cosmetic dept in a store or I will get sick.
And some smells take me back to a time in my childhood, well you know, times better left unremembered.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 16:53:14
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by DAisym on February 3, 2009, at 15:57:59
I wish I thought that would help. I had to take off my clothes and wash them. :( It's a very small office for such a heavy hitting scent product.
Oh well, maybe his intent was to provide me with aversion therapy.
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 16:56:48
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would/Dinah, posted by rskontos on February 3, 2009, at 16:04:27
I have to hold my nose and rush through those perfume areas. :( Even the most glancing contact with some perfumes sets me to sneezing.
I really do think it's getting worse with age, too.
He was probing to see if the scent brought back some memory. I told him no, the scent was perfectly nice and I had no adverse emotional reaction to it. It was just making me sick.
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 17:02:17
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2009, at 13:18:19
He's only around four or five years older than I am. I suspect it has something to do with his phlegmatic nature. If my nervous system is hyperreactive, his is perhaps hyporeactive. :/
I think I'd have noticed cigarette smell. That also sets me to sneezing, though it doesn't make me feel sick.
I sure hope enough clients complain that he gets rid of it. I'm planning to turn around if I see/smell it Friday and suggest we walk around outside for the session. And I'll give him the info on migraines and fragrance.
Perhaps he didn't do that with his other office, and I can switch days. Or maybe we could meet elsewhere. Short of that, I see no solution. I cant get to feeling sick every time I go there.
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 3, 2009, at 17:11:56
In reply to And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
Maybe it is time to invest in a gas mask? That would get the message across loud and clear.
I wouldn't like this either - I like the smell of my T's office. He has flowers but not smelly ones. The room smells of old books, which to me is a nice peaceful smell. I hate perfume - I can't stand it when someone sits next to me on a bus and they have perfume on. It's distracting and nauseating. My mother always wears perfume, maybe that plays a role in it but I'm not sure.
Hope he gets the hint. Why not take the research you've found along with you or phone him and ask him if he'd read an e-mail with this pertinent information?
Witti
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 19:24:15
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » Dinah, posted by wittgensteinz on February 3, 2009, at 17:11:56
I like the gas mask idea. :)
It took me hours to recover from the migraine today. For some reason, the Frova only seems to work on parts of the migraine phenomenon, and leaves me still feeling sick for a while.
I don't want to be a difficult client, but I just don't want to do that again.
I printed out the article and stuck it in my purse. If his other clients haven't convinced him to tone down the scent, I'll give it to him Friday. I can't imagine I'm the only one to find it offensive though. Hopefully enough people will reinforce the feedback I gave him that I won't have to be difficult.
Posted by Kath on February 3, 2009, at 19:50:51
In reply to And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
The scents in SO many products (MOST, I'd say) are synthetic.
Numerous hospitals in my province (Ontario Canada) are 'scent-free' - having realized the detrimental effects of scent on many many people. Some even restrict which flowers can be brought into the hospital (my daughter reacts to strongly scented flowers).
Here's a quote I just sent to my Pottery Guild membership person telling why I won't be going to meetings until they get a more heightened awareness about perfumes:
DID YOU KNOW
Perfume today is not made from flowers but from toxic chemicals.It's about as romantic as hazardous waste.
More than 4,000 chemicals are used in fragrances.
Of these, 95% are made from petroleum.No agency regulates the fragrance industry, yet perfume chemicals are as damaging to health as tobacco smoke.
Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS) is basically a subset of Environmental Illness (EI), which is caused by living in a toxic world. The chemicals that were synthesized after World War II (including, pesticides, synthetic fragrances, cleaning products, detergents, etc.) are mostly "petro-chemicals" (petroleum based) and are quite toxic to humans. There have been virtually no studies done on the majority of these chemicals to see how they affect humans. The industry just placed the chemicals in the environment with the assumption that they are "safe, till proven toxic", instead of the other way around. One of the biggest offenders is PERFUME and other scented products. Did you know that many of the ingredients in your perfume are the exact same ingredients found in GASOLINE??!! The scary thing is that the perfume industry is NOT REGULATED at all. They can put any number of chemicals in fragrance without revealing what those chemicals are or how they affect humans.
Some TOXIC CHEMICALS found in fragrances:
Toluene, ethanol, acetone, formaldehyde, limonene, benzene derivatives, ethylene chloride, and many others known to cause cancer, birth defects, infertility, nervous system damage, or other injuries.The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) even found chloroform in fabric softeners.
As Romantic as Hazardous Waste:
Toluene was found in every fragrance sample collected by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for a 1991 report. "Toluene was most abundant in the auto parts store as well as the fragrance section of the department store."Toluene has been proven to cause cancer and nervous system damage and is designated as hazardous waste.
............So - you see - it makes total sense that you felt sick. I am shocked that a health-care-professional would have that in their office. Some of the homes where I do 'house cleaning' occasionally, have them or have heavily scented candles. As soon as I go in, I cover all offending items with plastic shopping bags. When I get home, I have to wash all my clothes that I've had on & have a shower. My hair smells. My face & hands smell!!!
I am so sorry that this has happened!!!
Let me know if you want help in finding any links to info in the internet for you to give.
((((((((((((((((((((((you)))))))))))))))))))))))))
much love, Kath
PS - you don't need to have MCS or EI to get sick from fragrances. I know SEVERAL people who get migraines from them & 2 offices where my son & I go for support have 'scent-free' policies.
K
Posted by seldomseen on February 3, 2009, at 20:41:42
In reply to And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
Oh lord. Now he goes and smells up the place. Hopefully next session it will be gone.
I'm sensitive to smells as well and immersion in an odor can trigger a migraine for me too. It can also make me very very nauseous (I won't mention the V word). Really heavy tea-tree, sandalwood, bergamot smells just put me down.
It's odd that you indicate that you are not as upset by bath and body works stuff. I'm not either typically.
He's just going to have to remove that offensive thing from his office. I can't imagine he won't.
My therapist, on the other hand, has a ticking clock in his office that I would just like to smash with a hammer.
Seldom.
Posted by raisinb on February 3, 2009, at 21:35:32
In reply to And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
That sounds incredibly distracting, at best, and harmful, at worst--if it's giving you a migraine, it has to go. Explain it to him again.
I make my therapist turn off her pager because even the tiny vibration distracts me so much.
Posted by workinprogress on February 4, 2009, at 0:14:48
In reply to And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
Dinah-
I may very well be out of line in my simplicity here. But, from everything you've said about this man, your relationship, and all that you've been through... I just cannot imagine that this couldn't be fixed with a simple conversation. It seems to me, that given all of that he'd be able to hear and be sensitive to the fact that this was extremely bothersome to you. And from all you've said, I have to believe that he values you so much more than whatever his intention is with the scent.
I totally get how it's "thrown you for a loop". And I get how it would freak you out.. this conflict between he and your comfort. But, I dunno, seems something to look at in terms of what's behind it. Why it wasn't just a simple conversation (seems you've confronted him on other things, sometimes bigger). What keeps this from being a simple discussion of your needs and instead moves it to the possiblity of termination.
I don't know. And I'm just throwing all of this out there. Just some thoughts... because it just isn't all matching up for me. Not to say your concern isn't valid certainly, just wondering why not take it to him first, before you get to "worst case"?
I certainly hope you two get to talk about it and work it out...
(((((((Dinah)))))))
xo
WIP
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:04:39
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by workinprogress on February 4, 2009, at 0:14:48
I'm sure we could work it out. I just rather hope we don't have to. He's previously proved stubborn on things that are just common sense to me. I did explain how the situation affected me. That I was feeling sick, and that I thought it might be a problem with my migraines. And he gave some signs of being stubborn again.
It took a few weeks of discussion before he understood how I felt when he checked his vibrating cell phone (left on the hard wooden table so that it made a racket whenever it vibrated) to see who had called. He still leaves it on the table and on vibrate, but rarely checks to see who called. To me that was a no-brainer. In fact, turning off the vibrator or stuffing it between cushions seems like a no-brainer. But apparently we don't have similar brains.
This is not even a matter of respect, but a matter of my being physically ill. Yet I suspect he'll be just as stubborn. It is a situation where I do think I would have to make an ultimatum at some point. And ultimatums are never particularly good for relationships. Not even therapeutic relationships.
So at this point, I still hold out hope that his other clients will express discomfort and he'll abandon the experiment. Given board reaction, and given the size of his office and how heavy the scent is, I think it's a reasonable hope.
However, my reaction yesterday was strong enough that I will have to be fairly adamant about this. He's in a high rise, so opening a window is not an option. Maybe we could meet at his other office. Or maybe we could try having our sessions outside. He's always seemed intrigued by that possibility, while I've been concerned about privacy...
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:07:57
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » Dinah, posted by raisinb on February 3, 2009, at 21:35:32
Oh, I wish mine would turn off his vibrate. The darn phone vibrates so much it skitters across the table. I often lose my train of thought entirely.
If it's still there Friday, I'll give it another try as we walk around the block.
Although he might want me to give it a try with him putting the reeds someplace else. I don't think that will make a difference, but maybe it is my responsibility to try it before deciding.
Posted by Recently on February 4, 2009, at 10:14:50
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » workinprogress, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:04:39
>
> This is not even a matter of respect, but a matter of my being physically ill.
>
>Exactly! Having an adverse physical reaction to very strong scents is not terribly unusual. I bet some others in the office would have the same issue with the scent - perhaps they were not brave enough to say, though. Hopefully he will realize that it's not just a matter of preference. I'm sorry this happened! It would distress me as well.
Recently
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:15:07
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on February 3, 2009, at 20:41:42
Like grandfather clock ticking? Ah yes, I can see where that would be soothing to some people, but utterly infuriating to others. :)
I didn't actually.... I never do. But I was gulping Pepto for hours. As aversion therapy goes, nausea is pretty effective.
I know that's a ridiculous concept. But I did upset him the other day with something I said about wanting to make sure I continued therapy.
And I can't help wondering about the fact that we've had this conversation before (and fairly recently) about my reaction to heavy scents, and reed diffusers even. Of course I realize intellectually that he just forgot. He forgets a *lot*.
But he has many fine and useful qualities...
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:18:28
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Recently on February 4, 2009, at 10:14:50
> I bet some others in the office would have the same issue with the scent - perhaps they were not brave enough to say, though.
I used those exact words to him! Because he's said before that he "discovered" things that his clients were too polite to tell him. Things that I'd told him years ago. I always say he should thank me for letting him know what was going on on the other side of the room.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:21:17
In reply to Scent HUGE issue for me » Dinah, posted by Kath on February 3, 2009, at 19:50:51
I think I'll print out this thread too and bring it to him. That is useful information, and enough Babblers have shared their own problems with scent that I feel confident that I'm not peculiar in this.
Thanks Kath. I hope he does listen, for the sake of any of his clients who are sensitive to odor, and of course for my own sake.
Posted by workinprogress on February 4, 2009, at 10:33:37
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit » workinprogress, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:04:39
Dinah,
I apologize. I did not understand that you brought it up already- somehow totally missed that. I guess it seemed so simple that if you said it made you ill he would change it. So if you and he didn't, well, that is a huge problem. I'm sorry he wasn't responsive. And yes, ultimatums are not where you look to first certainly, but you do have to take care of yourself. But therein lies the problem, if it makes you ill he should listen to that and trust you and change it. It isn't like taking it away HURTS anyone so there's some weird conflict. Or at least I can't imagine it.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that other clients bring it up. Seems quite possible certainly.
Good luck. What you're describing doesn't sound like it feels good physically OR emotionally.
xo
WIP
> I'm sure we could work it out. I just rather hope we don't have to. He's previously proved stubborn on things that are just common sense to me. I did explain how the situation affected me. That I was feeling sick, and that I thought it might be a problem with my migraines. And he gave some signs of being stubborn again.
>
> It took a few weeks of discussion before he understood how I felt when he checked his vibrating cell phone (left on the hard wooden table so that it made a racket whenever it vibrated) to see who had called. He still leaves it on the table and on vibrate, but rarely checks to see who called. To me that was a no-brainer. In fact, turning off the vibrator or stuffing it between cushions seems like a no-brainer. But apparently we don't have similar brains.
>
> This is not even a matter of respect, but a matter of my being physically ill. Yet I suspect he'll be just as stubborn. It is a situation where I do think I would have to make an ultimatum at some point. And ultimatums are never particularly good for relationships. Not even therapeutic relationships.
>
> So at this point, I still hold out hope that his other clients will express discomfort and he'll abandon the experiment. Given board reaction, and given the size of his office and how heavy the scent is, I think it's a reasonable hope.
>
> However, my reaction yesterday was strong enough that I will have to be fairly adamant about this. He's in a high rise, so opening a window is not an option. Maybe we could meet at his other office. Or maybe we could try having our sessions outside. He's always seemed intrigued by that possibility, while I've been concerned about privacy...
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:51:16
In reply to Re: And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by workinprogress on February 4, 2009, at 10:33:37
There's nothing to apologize for!
It would be the logical conclusion. That if I expressed my distress, he would respond better. Perhaps I did downplay my distress. It is hard sometimes to overcome that reluctance to appear ill in public. And it built over the session so that when I first brought it up, I didn't feel as bad as I did later.
In fact, it helped me to consider why he didn't respond the way I'd expect him to respond. Which will help me a lot.
Posted by Kath on February 4, 2009, at 11:41:40
In reply to Re: Scent HUGE issue for me » Kath, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2009, at 10:21:17
Hi Dinah,
I hope it helps him to look at it perhaps a little differently (maybe a LOT differently).
The Ontario AND Canadian Human Rights Commissions both recognize MCS as a physical illness & in the same way that an employer would have to accommodate a person who has a disability that requires a wheelchair, employers are required to accommodate people who have medical troubles caused by scents! My daughter told me of this. Of course, it requires people to speak up & I don't know how comfortable people are with that!
I just received an email this morning from the pottery guild that I'm in & as a result of me bringing to their attention the whole scent issue (inculding that quote I put in my other post), they're requesting that guild members do NOT wear perfumes, scented hairspray & hand creams to guild meetings & events!! This is an amazing development, because a few years when I brought it up, the executive at that time were totally uninterested in doing anything about it!
Anyway Dinah, I do hope he will get rid of that. Very best of luck. xoxo Kath
Posted by SLS on February 4, 2009, at 17:39:49
In reply to And I thought nothing would make me quit, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2009, at 12:34:39
Dinah,
> If his other office is also so perfumed, I don't know what I'm going to do. The benefits I get from therapy will surely be overcome by my reluctance to feel ill every time I go there.
You are going to develop an aversion to mental health if you keep making that association. Every time you are about to have a healthy thought, you will want to vomit.
:-)
- Scott
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