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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 8:39:42
This has been a very powerful thing for me to meditate on when I am in distress. I never made it through Pema Chödron's book in it's entirety "When things fall apart", but it makes sense. Only by truly living with our pain, and experiencing it can we learn from it. I believe that pain is a cry for attention. When we give it the attention it deserves, it stops yelling at us.
Maybe this is what therapy is all about.
I think Marsha Linehan might not have incorporated this useful aspect of mindfullness into her "cognitive behavioral treatment of borderline personality disorder". This disorder is characterized by intense levels of chronic distress and instability in relationship to oneself and others.
She advocates things such as self-soothing and distraction as mechanisms to dealing with distress. No doubt this is useful in dealing with emergencies, but Linehan argues that it should be practiced proactively, during minor episodes as well.
I appreciate the notion of incorporating mindfulness into DBT, I'm just not sure how useful it is when one constantly flinches and reacts to pain by shirking it and burying it in layers of distraction and self-soothing. Isn't knowing ourselves the big goal here?
On the other hand, I guess that it's important to react to immediate crises as they unfold, in order to save the client's life.
I guess I'm just talking out of my limited understanding of dharma and DBT.
Posted by antigua3 on July 19, 2008, at 11:44:38
In reply to Leaning into the pain, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 8:39:42
One thing I find very helpful in alleviating the pain is to practice simple EMDR on my own. My hypnotist gave me the protocol (I had six months of EMDR earlier in therapy with another T so I was familiar with it) and it's amazing how 10 minutes of concentration on my pain can make it go away--for the day, at least--and for longer periods other times. Somehow or other, the pain over a particular thing can go away completely, but mostly I'm looking for immediate relief and it works.
Just a different take on relieving it.
antigua
Posted by raisinb on July 19, 2008, at 12:00:07
In reply to Leaning into the pain, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 8:39:42
When I first started doing yoga, I learned that I had to do that physically. Focus *in* on the pain, or else I wouldn't get too far because the poses have to be held for so long.
I did try to do that with emotional pain. I think sometimes it worked :) I was also meditation a lot, so maybe that helped.
I definitely think that fully experiencing pain, rather than running, or loading it with layers of fear, shame, self-hatred (all the "secondary" emotions Linehan talks about) is much, much easier. Without all of our mind's "oh, I'm in pain, oh, this is terrible, oh, I must be a crappy person, etc." pain is just a sensation. We only interpret it as a disaster.
Posted by Phillipa on July 19, 2008, at 12:51:57
In reply to Re: Leaning into the pain » llurpsienoodle, posted by raisinb on July 19, 2008, at 12:00:07
Wow I fit that description. Scarey. Love Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on July 19, 2008, at 14:13:28
In reply to Re: Leaning into the pain » llurpsienoodle, posted by raisinb on July 19, 2008, at 12:00:07
> I definitely think that fully experiencing pain, rather than running, or loading it with layers of fear, shame, self-hatred (all the "secondary" emotions Linehan talks about) is much, much easier. Without all of our mind's "oh, I'm in pain, oh, this is terrible, oh, I must be a crappy person, etc." pain is just a sensation. We only interpret it as a disaster.I think it's difficult to do, but it's very empowering. I have times when meditating, particularly if I was lying down, when I would get the fidgets so bad I would have to stop. I read somewhere that that tension and sort of creepy-crawly feeling could actually be a signal that something powerful was just behind it. So I tried to stay with it, ride through it, so to speak, and I wound up having a very powerful emotional experience. It was very pre-verbal, very intense, and rather healing. Of course I don't want to feel that every time I meditate, but it definitely was much better to face it and ride it out versus run from it. Otherwise, it kept happening. And I think I got something important out.
gg
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2008, at 16:53:17
In reply to Leaning into the pain, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 8:39:42
I think it might be two different aspects of the treatment? It's been a while since I read her book. But I think there are different parts to it. Mindfulness is one part, and distress tolerance another? And also interpersonal effectiveness, and something else.
In the mindfulness part, you are supposed to experience the pain fully. To watch it go by like leaves on a stream. To be aware of all your feelings, yet not swallowed by them. I think??? Can't recall.
But there's a time and place for everything. It might not always be the time or place for being aware of one's pain.
I can't really remember. Too long since I read the book.
Posted by Sigismund on July 19, 2008, at 17:38:55
In reply to Re: Leaning into the pain, posted by Dinah on July 19, 2008, at 16:53:17
Inevitably, you have to learn to live with pain, both physical and mental.
It's not easy, of course, but people do it.
I see a psych and we kind of talk about the world. He surprises me by being more pissed off than me. I think he is telling me that this kind of distress is liveable with.
Posted by Daisym on July 19, 2008, at 20:09:52
In reply to Re: Leaning into the pain, posted by Sigismund on July 19, 2008, at 17:38:55
I want to add that not everyone has the emotional capacity to fully experience pain - physically or mentally. Avoiding a psychotic break or being careful not to deepen a depression are goals of distraction. We wouldn't ask someone to walk on their broken leg, right?
Like everything, moderation is important. I give lectures often on the value of denial for parents whose children have special needs. It is not for us to say when they have to face the "truth" or let their pain out or confront the old stuff this new crisis has stirred up. Sometimes we need to just help people get through the day.
My two cents...
Posted by antigua3 on July 21, 2008, at 10:49:31
In reply to Re: Leaning into the pain, posted by gardenergirl on July 19, 2008, at 14:13:28
you just don't know how many times--millions maybe--that I've tried to do this, to follow the pain to see where it leads, what's behind it. I just can't do it. My pdoc says now not to do that because I'm retraumatizing myself everytime I do it I SO wish I could find what's behind the anxiety and fear.
thanks for your post,
antigua
Posted by pegasus on July 21, 2008, at 11:16:15
In reply to Leaning into the pain, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 8:39:42
Hi Llurpsie,
I've had exactly the same response to some CBT interventions in the past. It's nice to hear you articulate it so well. I hated being encouraged to distract myself from my pain, even when in "crisis". It felt so invalidating. What I wanted was someone who would let me be where I was. Or maybe even want to hear what it was like. I felt that no one would accept my pain, even my T. So I'd end up in this cognitive dissonance situation, which always ended up in self injury.
It was when I started getting serious about studying meditation (for me in the Buddhist tradition), and learned through that to try to ride the waves of my maelstroms, that I started finally getting a handle on my SI habit. Which is not to say that meditating can break me out of a serious emotional spiral when it occurs. There are certainly times that cranking up the angry music and singing along, or writing angry journal entries or, sadly, sometimes still reverting to SI, is the only thing that can "help" me. But distraction *never* does.
- peg
Posted by Tabitha on July 22, 2008, at 1:25:59
In reply to Leaning into the pain, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 8:39:42
I like Pema Chodron's writing. It's all very comforting and compassionate.
I try diving into the emotional pain sometimes. One time it seemed I got to the bottom of something, saw the childhood roots of it, and got some release. But that didn't happen again. Usually, diving into it is just a lesson in endurance. I think my T would rather have me trying to identify the inner critic's voice in there and challenge it.
Posted by Sigismund on July 23, 2008, at 3:42:37
In reply to Re: Leaning into the pain, posted by Tabitha on July 22, 2008, at 1:25:59
What I meant was, pain will persist, no matter how well you manage to minimise it.
And over time you get used to it, and to some extent you learn to live with it.
This is the end of the thread.
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