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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 48. Go back in thread:
Posted by pegasus on September 20, 2007, at 10:58:37
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality, posted by vwoolf on September 20, 2007, at 10:38:32
Sorry, I was trying to be a bit silly, which I know doesn't usually come across well in print. Underneath the silliness, what I meant is that I value the eccentricity that I see in people who are sometimes labeled as schizotypal. I guess I liked the way Sigismund's post spun around the negativity of having a diagnosis. I really meant it in a supportive way, rather than as making light of something serious. But I can totally see that it could come across as making fun, or making light, or other less than supportive motives. Many apologies for that.
p
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 11:04:40
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality, posted by pegasus on September 20, 2007, at 9:18:36
I think I should point out that NPD is a world apart from ordinary narcissism too. NPD is the creation of a false self to compensate for perceived unacceptable flaws in the real self. There's very little genuine self-love involved, in fact NPD is almost a deficiency of self-love. The perceived narcissism of people with NPD is an elaborate illusion.
____________________________________________________Pathological narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity [6]. In its more extreme forms, it is narcissistic personality disorder. NPD is considered to result from a person's belief that he or she is flawed in a way that makes the person fundamentally unacceptable to others [7]. This belief is held below the person’s conscious awareness; such a person would typically deny thinking such a thing if questioned. In order to protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation they imagine would follow if others recognized their supposedly defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ view of them and behavior towards them.
Psychologists commonly believe that pathological narcissism results from an impairment in the quality of the person’s relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents were unable to form a healthy, empathic attachment to them. This results in the child conceiving of themselves as unimportant and unconnected to others. The child typically comes to believe that he or she has some defect of personality which makes them unvalued and unwanted [6].
To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of others' needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen [4]. They may also demand certain behavior from their children because they see the children as extensions of themselves, and need the children to represent them in the world in ways that meet the parents’ emotional needs [8]. (For example, a narcissistic father who was a lawyer demanded that his son, who had always been treated as the "favorite" in the family, enter the legal profession as well. When the son chose another career, the father rejected and disparaged him.)
These traits will lead overly narcissistic parents to be very intrusive in some ways, and entirely neglectful in others. The children are punished if they do not respond adequately to the parents’ needs. This punishment may take a variety of forms, including physical abuse, angry outbursts, blame, attempts to instill guilt, emotional withdrawal, and criticism. Whatever form it takes, the purpose of the punishment is to enforce compliance with the parents' narcissistic needs[8].
People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight, real or imagined [9]. To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility.
There is a broad spectrum of pathologically narcissistic personalities, styles, and reactions -- from the very mild, reactive and transient, to the severe and inflexible narcissistic personality disorder.
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by pegasus on September 20, 2007, at 11:29:50
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality, posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 11:04:40
Ah, this one I got right, I think. Your discription of NPD does feel uncomfortably close to home for me, allowing that there is a continuum. I would argue that a "High" rating for me seems inflated. To add to your definition, in a succinct way, on Wikipedia there's an entry for NPD:
"Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder that is characterized by extreme feelings of self-importance, a high need for admiration, and a lack of empathy. NPD can be considered as a pathological form of narcissism."
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 11:46:17
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality » Quintal, posted by pegasus on September 20, 2007, at 11:29:50
My quote was from the Wiki article on NPD! In fact the entire passage was. There seems to be some conflict among psychologists about what constitutes NPD. The quote you isolated would seem to be an example of the most severe, intractable and inflexible form of NPD. It's clear from the rest of the article that there's much more to NPD than narcissism, and that it overlaps in some ways with BPD and other cluster B personality disorders. I'm in the middle of a discussion about this on another board, but we just seem to keep on tying ourselves in knots. The most we can agree on is that by narcissism, psychologists mean that the pathological narcissist is self-absorbed (as opposed to truly self-loving). Perhaps the pathological narcissist is in love with the false self, and demands excessive admiration for it, lacks empathy for others etc, but that's not really self-love is it? Or is it?!... because the false-self is one's own creation. Soooo..... maybe NPD is self-love by proxy?
____________________________________________________
True self, false self
Alexander Lowen describes pathological narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder, as "the denial of the true self"[11]
Masterson describes the creation of a false self as:
"when a young child fails to separate her own self-image from that of her mother. This happens roughly between the ages of two and three, often because of a parent’s own emotional problems. A mother’s encouragement of a child's self-assertion is vital. When the mother suffers from low self-esteem, she has difficulty encouraging her child’s emerging self. The child experiences this absence as a loss of self, creating feelings of abandonment that lead to depression. To deal with the depression, the child gives up efforts to support her emerging self. Instead, she relies on her mother’s approval to maintain the esteem of a "false self." [12]
Narcissistic personality disorder and shame
It has been suggested that Narcissistic personality disorder may be related to defenses against shame. [13]
Gabbard suggested NPD could be broken down into two subtypes[14]. He saw the "oblivious" subtype as being grandiose, arrogant and thick skinned and the "hypervigilant" subtype as easily hurt, oversensitive and ashamed.
He suggested that the oblivious subtype presents a large, powerful, grandiose self to be admired, envied and appreciated, which is the antithesis of the weakened and internalised self that hides in a generic state of shame, in order to fend off devaluation, whereas the hypervigilant subtype, far from fending off devaluation, is obsessed with it, neutralising devaluation by seeing others as unjust abusers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 12:10:20
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality » pegasus, posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 11:46:17
I should add that I think I swing between the two subtypes:
"Gabbard suggested NPD could be broken down into two subtypes[14]. He saw the "oblivious" subtype as being grandiose, arrogant and thick skinned and the "hypervigilant" subtype as easily hurt, oversensitive and ashamed.
He suggested that the oblivious subtype presents a large, powerful, grandiose self to be admired, envied and appreciated, which is the antithesis of the weakened and internalised self that hides in a generic state of shame, in order to fend off devaluation, whereas the hypervigilant subtype, far from fending off devaluation, is obsessed with it, neutralising devaluation by seeing others as unjust abusers."
In real life I'd say I behave in the hypervigilant subtype 'style':
"whereas the hypervigilant subtype, far from fending off devaluation, is obsessed with it, neutralising devaluation by seeing others as unjust abusers."
But put me in front of a keyboard, and I tend to behave in the oblivious subtype style (but I'm not really oblivious):
"He suggested that the oblivious subtype presents a large, powerful, grandiose self to be admired, envied and appreciated, which is the antithesis of the weakened and internalised self that hides in a generic state of shame, in order to fend off devaluation."
Which might be a sign of my borderlines traits? At times I feel utterly lost, have no sense of self at all, which is a sign of BPD. I've read that traits of NPD are a sign of recovery from BPD, because it shows the emergence of a sense of self. At times I wonder if any human being has ever felt like this before. I think my peers were quite accurate in their diagnosis "freak of nature" than any sprawling and elaborate psychodynamic explanation is likely to be. Just mother nature performing one of her 'innovative' experiments, see if I sink or swim, just testing the success of these traits in the human gene pool. I suppose it's up to me to bear my burden lightly.
Q
Posted by pegasus on September 20, 2007, at 12:36:58
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality, posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 12:10:20
Very interesting . . . thanks Quintal. I think I share some of the traits that you describe for yourself. I definitely would say that I'd fall more in the hypervigilant subtype. This especially hits home: neutralising devaluation by seeing others as unjust abusers
I also liked this:
"I've read that traits of NPD are a sign of recovery from BPD, because it shows the emergence of a sense of self."
Maybe that's why I always felt a bit of affinity with BPD, even though I don't think I am. I've also struggled with my sense of self, and sometimes it seems so fragile and needing of (too aggressive?) protection.
Thanks for helping me learn more about this.
p
Posted by twinleaf on September 20, 2007, at 13:50:03
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality » Quintal, posted by pegasus on September 20, 2007, at 12:36:58
The test seems sort of ultra-simple, so I wonder how valid it is. I'd think that these questions would have to be asked in different ways multiple times for it to be dependable. That said, I found that I scored low on everything except dependence, which was high. This does fit well with the fact that I am extremely sensitive to loss. I don't have much resilience at all in coping with that. I feel overwhelmed, and don't know how to mourn properly, and the result has been recurring episodes of depression.So, maybe the test is not that bad!
Posted by B2chica on September 20, 2007, at 14:24:30
In reply to Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality?, posted by Quintal on September 19, 2007, at 19:34:43
http://similarminds.com/personality_disorder.html
Quintal and ALL
here's a different one that i had taken a while ago...my results now are similar to back then, but i think i like the questions a little better.Paranoid 58%
Schizoid 90%
Schizotypal 90%
Antisocial 30%
Borderline 42%
Histrionic 10%
Narcissistic 22%
Avoidant 10%
Dependent 18%
Obsessive-Compulsive 50%
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 17:14:57
In reply to Different Personality Disorder Test, posted by B2chica on September 20, 2007, at 14:24:30
Disorder -----My Score--Average Score
Paranoid |||||||||||||||||| 78% 49%
Schizoid |||||||||||||||||||| 90% 53%
Schizotypal |||||||||||||||||| 74% 53%
Antisocial |||||||||||||||| 70% 47%
Borderline |||||||||||||||||||| 86% 47%
Histrionic |||||||||||| 46% 43%
Narcissistic |||||| 30% 41%
Avoidant |||||||||||||||| 62% 39%
Dependent |||||||||||| 50% 37%
Obsessive-Compulsive |||||||||| 34% 40%Well I'm pleased the results are broadly similar in both our cases. I like the fact that you can choose a neutral response with this questionnaire, and also the author's note:
__________________________________________________Author Note: I don't think Schizoid personality is a valid disorder (read), some of the smartest people in history were schizoid because they occupied a remote end of the intelligence bell curve. Schizotypal personality can encompass highly original thinkers as well as totally insane people so I think it's a flawed type. I think the remaining eight disorders are generally valid.
__________________________________________________I wonder which two he scored highest on? ;-)
Q
Posted by LlurpsienOOdle on September 20, 2007, at 17:47:32
In reply to Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality?, posted by Quintal on September 19, 2007, at 19:34:43
Llurpsie 9/20
Paranoid: Low
Schizoid: Low
Schizotypal: Moderate
Antisocial: Low
Borderline: Very High
Histrionic: Low
Narcissistic: Moderate
Avoidant: High
Dependent: Moderate
Obsessive-Compulsive: Lowno surprises there.
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 18:28:38
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality » Quintal, posted by LlurpsienOOdle on September 20, 2007, at 17:47:32
I don't know what to say, but welcome to the club!!! There are plenty of us borderlines about. No need to feel lonely.
Q
Posted by cactus on September 20, 2007, at 18:37:01
In reply to Different Personality Disorder Test, posted by B2chica on September 20, 2007, at 14:24:30
Thanks for that one B2chica, My results varied quite a lot from the other test.
Personality Disorder Test Results
Paranoid |||||||||| 38%
Schizoid |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Schizotypal |||||||||||||||||||| 86%
Antisocial |||||||||||||| 58%
Borderline |||||||||||||||||| 78%
Histrionic |||||||||||| 42%
Narcissistic |||||||||||| 46%
Avoidant |||||||||||||||| 62%
Dependent |||||||||||| 42%
Obsessive-Compulsive |||| 18%
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 18:48:16
In reply to Re: Different Personality Disorder Test » B2chica, posted by cactus on September 20, 2007, at 18:37:01
I see you're still a borderline. Interesting that some of our scores drop so suddenly. I wonder if it was a change in mood, or the questions, or even the option to give a neutral response. I remember wanting to give a neutral response to some of the questions in the first test, but there wasn't one.
Q
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 20, 2007, at 19:05:08
In reply to Re: Different Personality Disorder Test » cactus, posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 18:48:16
do we get t shirts and stickers for our car?
they should just say
Borderline
okay, now I go do my homework...-Ll
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 19:16:30
In reply to Club Borderline, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 20, 2007, at 19:05:08
Hey, cool name!!! I've been looking at a website specifically for people with BPD and related issues over the last few weeks, and it's really very supportive. They have a special section where people talk about things like dissociation, and cutting etc, and of course abuse. Some of the stories are very moving. I've never met a collection of people who actually sound even in the same ballpark as me until I went to that site.
http://www.bpdcentral.com/Q
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2007, at 20:11:38
In reply to Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality?, posted by Quintal on September 19, 2007, at 19:34:43
Your Results:
Disorder Rating
Paranoid: Moderate
Schizoid: High
Schizotypal: High
Antisocial: Low
Borderline: Moderate
Histrionic: Moderate
Narcissistic: Moderate
Avoidant: High
Dependent: Moderate
Obsessive-Compulsive: High
I'm pretty sure interpretation and the lack of maybe or sometimes influenced my results.
I've been a bit leary since I was told by the dissociative test that I had a very low degree of dissociative tendencies.
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2007, at 20:22:13
In reply to Re: Does Anyone Else Have a Disordered Personality, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2007, at 20:11:38
I guess I should add though that my therapist and the pdoc from H*ll are positive I am schizotypal. Dr. Just the Facts Ma'am was equally positive I wasn't schizotypal, although I may be a touch schizoid. And I'm positive I'm borderline, although all my healthcare providers have ruled it out.
I think it's got something to do with spectrums and where on the spectrum you enter into disorder, and also the fact that some of these "disorders" have more than one dimension, and one dimension may fit very well while others may not.
Like I'm extraordinarily sensitive to interpersonal rejection and abandonment and go to enormous lengths to avoid it, once having given my trust and affection (which seems borderline) while my life and relationships are almost pathologically stable (which doesn't seem borderline) and I give my trust and affectionate very reluctantly, avoiding rejection and abandonment by choosing not to care (which would fit with schizoid/schizotypal although the motivation is the same as borderline).
I don't like the entire personality disorder idea.
Posted by RealMe on September 20, 2007, at 20:56:18
In reply to I took it, but have some problems with it..., posted by Racer on September 20, 2007, at 1:33:45
I took the test too and came out low on everything. Then I decided to play around with it, and I changed one answer. Low and behold I was moderate on obsessive compulsive after that. So, I changed my answer back and tried changing another answer, just one, and again hum now I was moderate on avoidant.
That is part of the problem with the test, too short and hum, what about the reliability and validity. HUH??? Yep, situational things are not supposed to be a factor so much with personality disorders, and so I hope no one takes the results seriously.
RealMe
Posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 23:06:17
In reply to Re: I took it, but have some problems with it... » Racer, posted by RealMe on September 20, 2007, at 20:56:18
What a relief you didn't come out with any borderline or narcissistic traits!!! No, I don't think anybody is taking the results too seriously, unless they are in line with their prior expectations.
Q
Posted by RealMe on September 20, 2007, at 23:45:30
In reply to Re: I took it, but have some problems with it... » RealMe, posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 23:06:17
I could make it come out that way if you like! Just joking, but actually I could. So, yes if someone thinks they are borderline, then they will answer those questions that fit from what they know. Unfortunately, I think I could make myself come out to be any of the categories by slanting my answers to fit with a particular diagnostic category. It is fun though, isn't it?
RealMe
Posted by B2chica on September 21, 2007, at 8:20:00
In reply to Re: Different Personality Disorder Test, posted by Quintal on September 20, 2007, at 17:14:57
OK ya'll you HAVE to do this one!!!
http://www.blogthings.com/whatpersonalitydisorderareyouquiz/
ROTFLMAO!!!!
I'm Kramer!!!"You May Be a Bit Schizotypal...
A bit odd and socially isolated.
You couldn't care less of what others think.
And some of your beliefs are a little weird.
Like that time you thought you were Jesus."
Posted by pegasus on September 21, 2007, at 10:10:48
In reply to Official TEST: HAVE TO DO THIS ONE!, posted by B2chica on September 21, 2007, at 8:20:00
Oh no, I'm Miss Piggy. Here's the full description:
"Dramatic and over the top, you crave attention. And you'll do anything it takes to get noticed. You love to be seductive, even when it's inappropriate. If you're ignored, you're easily hurt ... and act out even more!"
Here's my results from the other test. I'm somewhat narcissistic. I'm less histrionic than average. And more antisocial. And kinda moderate on everything. Bah!
Paranoid 18% 49%
Schizoid 46% 53%
Schizotypal 34% 53%
Antisocial 58% 47%
Borderline 38% 47%
Histrionic 38% 43%
Narcissistic 58% 41%
Avoidant 18% 39%
Dependent 26% 37%
Obsessive-Compulsive 54% 40%I like how this one compares you to average. Although that average is among people who took this test on the web, so who knows what bias that implies.
p
Posted by Quintal on September 21, 2007, at 12:57:41
In reply to Re: Official TEST: HAVE TO DO THIS ONE!, posted by pegasus on September 21, 2007, at 10:10:48
***You May Be a Bit Antisocial...***
Antisocial? That may be a bit of an understatement.
You think rules are meant to be broken - and with gusto!
Having no fear, you don't even think about consequences.
But people love you anyway... you've got a boatload of charm.What Personality Disorder Are You?
http://www.blogthings.com/whatpersonalityderareyouquiz/Ooh, I say! I suppose there's a grain of truth in that. I've been wondering for a while if I was some kind of psychopath, but apparently psychopaths don't think there's anything wrong with them. Sociopathy looked slightly more promising, but it's much the same story there. I have too much empathy to be one of them, but too little, apparently, to be a normal person. I guess I'm still on the borderline then.
Q
Posted by arora on September 21, 2007, at 15:14:23
In reply to Club Borderline, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on September 20, 2007, at 19:05:08
Oh dear- here's another one:
Paranoid - - 74% - 49%
Schizoid - - 62% - 53%
Schizotypal - - 82% - 53%
Antisocial - - 66% - 47%
Borderline - - 86% - 47%
Histrionic - - 62% - 43%
Narcissistic - - 10% - 41%
Avoidant - - 46% - 39%
Dependent- - 54% - 37%
Obsessive-Compulsive - - 66% - 40%Good heavens... now I AM depressed. :-0
arora
Posted by Quintal on September 21, 2007, at 16:08:10
In reply to Re: Club Borderline, posted by arora on September 21, 2007, at 15:14:23
Don't worry dear, at least it didn't accuse you of being like Hannibal Lecter. And welcome to the club! Any more for any more?
Q
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