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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sigismund on July 11, 2007, at 3:39:11
These are some lines from Bruce Cockburn's wonderful
'Rose Above the Sky'
You carry the weight of inherited sorrow
From your first day till you die
Toward that hilltop where the road
Forever becomes one with the sky'Til the Rose above the sky
Opens
And the light behind the sun
Takes allI'm 54. A long time ago, my mother was talking about a man she might have married. He came from somewhere in the German speaking world, and she described how, when introduced to him, he went to kiss her hand according to his custom. She just reflected that 'we don't do that here'. I can't say it was *because* of that, but something entered my heart, a terrible sorrow, an intoxicating sense of loss, quite accurate historically and therefore, I believe appropriate and good.
Does anyone have any comment on sorrow inherited historically?
I wonder how it seeps into our souls?
At least I hope it does....I hope life is not even more meaningless and disconnected than it sometimes seems.
Posted by Sigismund on July 11, 2007, at 4:24:45
In reply to Inherited Sorrow, posted by Sigismund on July 11, 2007, at 3:39:11
'The heartbreak that is at the centre of human existence.'
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2007, at 9:22:58
In reply to Inherited Sorrow, posted by Sigismund on July 11, 2007, at 3:39:11
I don't know if it has to be inherited if it's passed down more directly through example. How can a child not incorporate their parents' world view to some extent?
And feeling a great deal of empathy for those who preceded us is probably hardwired to some extent. I'm sure like the universal appeal of baby faces it has some sort of biological benefit. I remember coming to terms with death by empathizing with the view my ancestors must have had of it.
On a related note, and from a position of total ignorance, might I ask if you are an existentialist? My therapist said the other day that I was one, and attempted to explain what it meant.
I was a bit confused and wondered if it was similar to his notion that I approached the ideal of Buddhist nonattachment, which was a compplete misinterpretation of what I was describing and experiencing at the time. Although I am sure his intentions were good.
Posted by Racer on July 11, 2007, at 11:55:58
In reply to Inherited Sorrow, posted by Sigismund on July 11, 2007, at 3:39:11
>
> I'm 54. A long time ago, my mother was talking about a man she might have married. He came from somewhere in the German speaking world, and she described how, when introduced to him, he went to kiss her hand according to his custom. She just reflected that 'we don't do that here'. I can't say it was *because* of that, but something entered my heart, a terrible sorrow, an intoxicating sense of loss, quite accurate historically and therefore, I believe appropriate and good.
>
> Does anyone have any comment on sorrow inherited historically?
>I'm not sure it's quite the same thing, but I know I get a sense of deep sadness when I am reminded of some aspects of my earlier life. Mostly related to the German speaking world...
I grew up with a lot of Germans and Austrians around, and a lot of German spoken. The older men were hand kissers -- although most of the hand-kissing world agrees that American women are dangerous when kissing hands. Apparently many American women try to "help" lift their hands... (Maybe because it's so embedded in our consciousness that we should never be passive in any context?) And almost all of them were two-cheek-kissers -- that's what I really miss. That's what gives me the sadness.
Now, I'm not a casual hugger, I'm not happy being touched by anyone who hasn't had an explicit invitation to do so. But the two-cheek-kiss of greeting seems so safe, so warm -- and yet less intimate than a casual hug. I miss so much coming into a room, and having a man take both my hands in his, and bringing his mouth towards first my right, then my left cheek. And I miss being invited to call someone "du" instead of "Sie." And I miss the pidgin spoken by two language groups, each trying very hard to make it easier for the other to understand.
I miss the shared understanding -- being able to use a sort of shorthand to communicate, based on shared knowledge of certain literature and art. I miss hearing obscure jokes about writers, and knowing that someone in the room will get it and laugh. I miss being able to listen to "The Grown-Ups" talk about Socrates and Xanthippe as though they were the neighbors down the street -- "and isn't it a scandal?" I miss what I learned as "proper behavior" growing up. It's often stupid things, like social kisses are always on the right cheek. Where did that rule come from? Did anyone else ever learn it? But somehow, I always knew -- NEVER kiss someone on the left cheek, unless you're married to, engaged to, or the parent of the recipient.
Maybe it's nostalgia for a time when life was simpler? Or maybe it's a longing for a time when I felt safer, and more loved? Maybe it's just missing certain faces and voices I'll never hear again.
Damn. I'm crying now. Let me just say this, to someone who won't hear it. "Maria, thank you for all your love. You and your husband made my life so much richer, and I'll always be thankful for it." I started writing what I would want to say to so many people, but I think that's enough. Especially since I can't stay and cry and miss them today.
So, I don't know if it's inherited sorrow, or a longing for a more elegant time, or something that was passed on from your mother more directly. But I do know that I feel something I think it probably pretty similar.
Posted by Sigismund on July 12, 2007, at 15:47:02
In reply to Re: Inherited Sorrow » Sigismund, posted by Racer on July 11, 2007, at 11:55:58
Thank you both for your replies.
After that experience I felt next day as if I had been on the booze all night.
I get into some really strange states.You familiar with David Byrne from Talking Heads? I take some comfort that someone who lives as close to the edge as he has can cope.
Consider the lyrics of'Swamp'
Now lemme tell you a story
The devil he has a plan
A bag a' bones in his pocket
Got anything you want
No dust and no rocks
The whole thing is over
All these beauties in solid motion
All those beauties, gonna swallow you upHi hi hi hi hi,
One time too many
Too far to go
I- We come to take you homeAnd when they split those atoms
It's hotter than the sun
Blood is a special substance
They gonna pray for that manSo wake up young lovers
The whole thing is over
Watch but touch monkeys
All that blood, gonna swallow you wholeHi hi hi hi hi
What's that? Who's driving?
Where we goin'? Who knows?
I- We come to take you homeHow many people do you think I am
Pretend I am somebody else
You can pretend I'm and old millionaire
A millionaire washing his hands
Rattle the bones, dreams that stick out
A medical chart on the wall
Soft violence and hands touch your throat
Ev'ryone wants to explodeAnd when your hands get dirty
Nobody knows you at all
Don't have a window to slip out of
Lights on, nobody homeClick click- see ya later
Beta beta- no time to rest
Pika pika- risky business
All that blood, will never cover that mess.Hi hi hi hi hi
So soft hard feelings
What's that, who's driving
No tricks lets go
I- We come to take you home
I- We come to take you home
Hi hi hi hi hi
etc.He has a touch of (something like) autism, as you can tell from (at least the lyrics to) this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEpUHnvfCzQ
Posted by DAisym on July 14, 2007, at 11:28:38
In reply to Re: Inherited Sorrow, posted by Sigismund on July 12, 2007, at 15:47:02
I'm late to this thread but have a great interest...
There are tons of anthropological research studies that show that sorrow and grief can and is inherited, if you want to use that world. It is known as cultural grief and the most extensive studies have been done on Jews and American Indians. My fascination with this subject comes in around the language signifiers and the Lanconian theories. Lancan believes that we communicate unconsciously these things to each other, particularly in families.
Here is a quote:
"But trauma repeats, almost inevitably. Freud calls this the "repetition compusion." How does this happen? What comes in place of a wordless history? We evoke trauma repeatedly - through uncanny, disconnected impressions, feelings others carry for us and we can't feel, ideas and fears that seem without reason and yet persist. Unwittingly, we live in the continual presence of ghosts, whom we address (yet don't even know). In the absense of history we reenact trauma (the unbearable excess without words), staging the unspoken elements of experience. Trauma wrenches us outside of time in timeless repetition.
Language is traumatizing and carries trauma across generations, repeating as signifiers -- linked with symptoms and reenactments. In fact, signifiers are primary. They exist in our parents' words, long before we even know the world to which they refer. Lacan says, "It is the world of words that creates the world of things."As I study attachment behaviors between mom and baby, I keep thinking about this. How can I help the mom if I don't know her family history? And yet if I stir up her family history, doesn't that make it harder for her, in the here and now, to relate to her baby? It is all very complicated but fascinating.
Posted by Sigismund on July 14, 2007, at 18:17:23
In reply to Re: Inherited Sorrow » Sigismund, posted by DAisym on July 14, 2007, at 11:28:38
>It is known as cultural grief and the most extensive studies have been done on Jews and American Indians.
And it is happening terribly to Aboriginal people in Australia. A decade or two ago they felt it neccessary to hang themselves in jail because of that grief. Now that I think about it, the impatient reaction to that would have fulfilled their expectations. They have discovered other ways of destroying themselves now.
I really do feel that there is one big mind and we share in it, that our psychological existence as individuals and the area in which we say 'this is me/us' is more or less arbitrary. This sounds crazy, I know, but anyway is the sort of thing I have been thinking about for much of my life. A lot of our assumptions and theories these days come from our very individualistic society.
Cultural grief?
Now that is an interesting subject.
As is self inflicted wounds, but that belongs in Politics, given the way we divide things up.
This is the end of the thread.
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