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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:12:18
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:53:06
You have expressed a warped and simplistic view of 'psychotherapy' which happens to be a very broad discipline with many different schools of thought.
If self-improvement, self-revelation is so obtainable - why do we seek help in so many aspects of life - not just mental life? Why do smokers who want to give up, wear nicotine patches when surely their power of mind alone can sustain them - and save them a good deal of money? Why do we care what we look like to our friends when really we know whether we look good or not ourselves. And T is not just about inner pains - it's about patterns of behaviour, and interpersonal relationships.
I have the feeling all you want to do here is cause a stir - which you've managed. Does it make you feel any better?
Perhaps if you were less self-assured of your own 'inner truth' (which frankly is a bit of a wishy-washy term) you might realise that many things in life have no clear answers - things like therapy are incredibly productive and useful - and life changing (not just temporarily healing) for many people. Equally, some people will find therapy unnecessary, unhelpful and inappropriate. I don't think either group is in a position to undermine the strength of the other - there are many types of therapy, many types of person - the fact that many are clearly helped by therapy stands on its own feet.
Finally, in your response to me you said:
" Unless, you are biologically disabled mentally, the only way to find the truth is to look within yourself. "
I'm pretty upset that you bring 'biological mental disability' (whatever that is meant to be) into this discussion. There are all sorts of ramifications arising from this debate, which I won't go into.
I think you need to step back - see this in context - you are not an absolute authority and there is no absolute authority on the worthiness or value of T - you express your subjective thoughts from your own perspective - and so do I - I don't feel a need to convince you, I'm only replying because I can see how your words could undermine the progress that others are making in their lives, as most of the people using this part of the board will be in therapy themselves.
If you believe that change can come from within (which I think is perfectly compatible with the need for therapy) - then you can rest assured that if therapy is indeed a universal waste of time etc. etc. we will find it within ourselves to come to that conclusion.
I'm also sad to tell you that if it's an absolute inner truth you are seeking - you may come to be rather disappointed - which I see from another post you say you are.
Witti
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:13:09
In reply to Re: Wasn't gonna post but....., posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 18:44:25
> **Simple dissapointment....
> Hmmmm.
> Yet it clouded your judgement in posting impulsively to the thread above....hmmmmm. Words.
> They MAGIC!!!!!Yes, i agree-- they stimulate emotions-- like these below that your wrote, for example:
> Hope you can get your stuff sorted out.
Last time I saw my doctor and discussed my disappointment, and plans to avoid stuff etc., he said, "I hope you have a better year Squiggles"--those words meant something to me, a lot, and yet the phrase was succinct, but the message, pregnant with meaning.Squiggles
> Muffled
>
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:18:13
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... FOR SQUIGGLES, posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:12:18
>
> I have the feeling all you want to do here is cause a stir - which you've managed. Does it make you feel any better?
>That's rude and presumptuous.
You may think what you like of me.Squiggles
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 19:40:25
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... FOR SQUIGGLES » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:18:13
Ahhh witti, try not to let squiggles stuff trigger you.
I have some doubt as to whether his mind may be changed, but who knows. Maybe he will be delightfully surprized!!! Sometimes the most challenging people end up being wonderful!!!
I think he just a hurting person scrambling for answers just like the rest of us.
Maybe he learned something from us? Despite himself!!!LOL!!!!
Maybe he will become a valued member of this community.
Maybe he will make me nuts!
Who knows.
Lets give it a chance.
Anyhow,
best wishes
M
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 19:46:28
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... FOR SQUIGGLES » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:18:13
> >
> > I have the feeling all you want to do here is cause a stir - which you've managed. Does it make you feel any better?
> >
>
> That's rude and presumptuous.
> You may think what you like of me.
>
> SquigglesYou posted this squiggles:
Well, sorry i butt in. It was a trigger
and i am an impulsive person under some
strain right now.Guess you and witti and me not so different in some ways anyhow!
Hope you can stick around and at least read, and learn the babble way of communicating civilly, which is a challenge in of itself!!! But I am learning.
Maybe you can come to a greater understanding of where I and some others are comming from?
Its up to you.
Take care, and BTW your last post to me was lovely.
I heard it :-)
Thanks,
Muffled
Posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:46:28
In reply to ((((Witti))))dang triggers, me too, posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 19:40:25
Thanks Muffled :)
Sorry Squiggles to have offended you. This is just sensitive for me.
Witti
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 21:09:16
In reply to Re: ((((Witti))))dang triggers, me too, posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:46:28
That's OK - i'm from Barcelona :-)
Squiggles
Posted by sunnydays on June 28, 2007, at 22:00:45
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » muffled, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:05:33
Personally, I think therapy can be the most authentic thing there is. I have made the most amazing amount of progress in such a short time. No one forces me to go, and I make all the choices, so how is it despotic?
Such a real relationship, but just with limits.
sunnydays
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 5:50:27
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Squiggles, posted by sunnydays on June 28, 2007, at 22:00:45
There's a difference between a counsellor
with whom you discuss your problems and
solutions, and a therapist who practices
psychological treatment on you. With a
psychological treatment, the problem may
range anywhere from pedophilia to gambling
addiction. Presumably, the therapist has
the power to treat any of this range of
chronic personality problems by talk therapy.
That can take your whole lifetime, and i would
not be surprised if they do take your money for
your whole lifetime, without giving medical treatment which is what is needed.With a counsellor, you can speak to your doctor or a social worker at a CLSC regarding a specific life problem.
So, the therapist is despotic in assuming a superiour position to a doctor, and pretending to have the power to treat any kind of problem, and denying the need for medical care--if he's dishonest. And i am cynical enough to say that money makes a lot of people dishonest.
Squiggles
Posted by Dory on June 29, 2007, at 9:27:47
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » sunnydays, posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 5:50:27
i am breaking my own self-imposed ban for this, and only this.
i am asking the babble community to stop being baited by this. Stop answering.
We may have different opinions about therapy, and many struggle with guilt, but we all know that a gambling addiction is not a personality disorder, nor is the spectrum of PD's between it and pedophilia... good grief.
You cannot answer anger. This is not a debate, as in the exchange of strong ideas, this is an argument and no one wins.
Squiggles, please stop.
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 9:35:02
In reply to breaking my own rule... and um..deputies?, posted by Dory on June 29, 2007, at 9:27:47
OK - it if bothers you; i've left the post
for the book for those who are of a different
opinion. But, I will not criticize therapy
again.Squiggles
Posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:06:03
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:53:06
How is that therapy does not help one look inside oneself? That's frankly the purpose of my therapy. And how am I deceiving myself? I'm not guilty of being abused. It's my responsibility how I respond, however, and that's why I'm doing therapy. I want to get over it and be able to find who I truly am. My T is a guide along that path. He doesn't shape who I am, just helps me to find it. And I don't need to be a man, since I'm a woman.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with T, but I don't think bad experiences can be generalized to all of a profession.
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:12:33
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » sunnydays, posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 5:50:27
Funny how first thing my T said was that I need to see a doctor and get a medical work-up. And he is a therapist with a masters in social work. He practices 'psychological treatments' by talking with me about trauma and my interpersonal relationships. And somehow I feel the best I have ever felt in my life.
sunnydays
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 10:45:05
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty...***trigger*** » Squiggles, posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:06:03
I have not had a bad experience with a therapist.
I simply think that they give opinions and nothing
else.Most important though, if you lose yourself
as you say, one time, what makes you think
that after your T shows you where you are,
or who you are, you won't lose yourself again?And is there really any meaningfulness to the
concept of "losing oneself" except in states
of disociation and psychosis?I expect this post will not make through, vis a vis Dory's deputy policy remark.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 10:50:34
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Squiggles, posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:12:33
It's not funny; it's the good luck of finding
a decent social worker who recognizes the treatment necessity outside his/her profession.Squiggles
Posted by muffled on June 29, 2007, at 11:38:52
In reply to breaking my own rule... and um..deputies?, posted by Dory on June 29, 2007, at 9:27:47
I don't think squiggles is trying to make people mad.
I think these posts are how HE feels bout this stuff.
He's entitled to his opinion as are we.
We are welcome to show him our viewpoint so as to try and help him understand where it is we are comming from.
HOWEVER, if it is upsetting to anyone, and they don't feel they can post from a non emotional more rational self, then maybe they are best to leave it to others, or not respond at all.Or respond when they are calmer.
It is SO hard with just written words sometimes to communicate. To understand where the other person is comming from.
Its ESP difficult when its a topic near and dear to us.
So really, I think we can handle this or walk away.
Either way is OK!!! as long as we don't get overly emotional and hurtful and hurt by this discussion.
Not easy I know.
Thanks to all for how well they have done with this difficult topic.
M
Posted by muffled on June 29, 2007, at 11:42:36
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » sunnydays, posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 10:50:34
on this thread. Many are finding it challenging.
See my post to Dory above.
M
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 12:57:39
In reply to DORY?? Just don't read this thread and IMHO, posted by muffled on June 29, 2007, at 11:38:52
> I don't think squiggles is trying to make people mad.
No i'm not. Tx.
However, i do respond to a question, and this
time i should not have.Sorry.
Posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 13:18:07
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty...***trigger*** » sunnydays, posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 10:45:05
>
> Most important though, if you lose yourself
> as you say, one time, what makes you think
> that after your T shows you where you are,
> or who you are, you won't lose yourself again?**** Well, see my T didn't show me where I was. He basically had me talk. And he showed me that I don't have to be sad all the time, that I'm not a bad person. I'm sure there will be short periods of time in the future where I lose a connection with myself. But I can then have the skills to reconnect with myself again. I am learning to become much more self-sufficient through therapy. And therapists offer only opinions, sure, but so do doctors and other health professionals too. Doctors make a diagnosis based on their opinions of what your symptoms are and what they think is causing them and design treatments around that. Sometimes they can be horribly wrong, like telling a woman she's too young to have a heart attack and it's just acid reflux, only for her to end up having a heart attack a few days later. Sure doctors may have more objective tests to make their determinations with, but all they offer are opinions. It's all anyone can offer, really.
>
> And is there really any meaningfulness to the
> concept of "losing oneself" except in states
> of disociation and psychosis?**** Well, considering that I have PTSD and some dissociative symptoms, yes. When I went to therapy I said, "I'm not sure who I am, really," after the initial anxiety had abated a little. My T has done nothing but ask open-ended questions to let me explore who I am for myself. Sometimes he will remind me that I am kind or intelligent, but those are qualities I have already seen in myself and am too embarrassed to acknowledge at times.
sunnydays
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 13:22:28
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty...***trigger***, posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 13:18:07
I'd like to continue the discussion,
but there's a policy order from Dory.Squiggles
Posted by Deputy Dinah on June 29, 2007, at 14:55:44
In reply to Re: ((((Witti))))dang triggers, me too, posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:46:28
Posted by Deputy Dinah on June 29, 2007, at 15:02:00
In reply to breaking my own rule... and um..deputies?, posted by Dory on June 29, 2007, at 9:27:47
> i am asking the babble community to stop being baited by this. Stop answering.
I realize you may have been upset, however I'm going to have to ask you to please follow the civility guidelines even when you are upset. Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Deputy Dinah on June 29, 2007, at 15:13:12
In reply to Please be civil » Dory, posted by Deputy Dinah on June 29, 2007, at 15:02:00
In general the tenor on this board is generally supportive towards therapy. But that isn't the purpose of this board. The purpose is to discuss psychology and psychological treatments. There is no requirement (as on the religion board, for example) for those discussions to be positive.
It is a requirement that negative opinions be stated in accordance with civility guidelines. That would mean being sensitive to and respectful of those who utilize therapy services by not expressing negative judgments about them, and also mean remembering that some board members are therapists or therapists in training. So blanket indictments of the character of therapists should be avoided. But discussions of whether therapy is useful, a replacement of other relationships, etc. is not inherently uncivil.
Keeping all of that in mind, let's all remember that reasonable people can and do hold different opinions on the topic. That it's possible to speak respectfully with those of differing opinions. And that finally, whatever your feelings, board guidelines require that you respond with civility.
(And it's fine to add a civil trigger warning to the thread if you think it might help other people avoid things that may trigger strong feelings.)
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 15:21:37
In reply to Opinions, posted by Deputy Dinah on June 29, 2007, at 15:13:12
I have read this post and understand that
this matter should be discussed with delicacy.
This is not after all the alt.groups.Squiggles
Posted by Deputy Dinah on June 29, 2007, at 15:22:52
In reply to Re: Opinions » Deputy Dinah, posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 15:21:37
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