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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by annierose on March 13, 2007, at 6:51:48
In reply to Looking into the Abyss, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 1:39:27
You can call when evenings are tough you know. It is overwhelming right now. And it's okay to wonder why no one protected you as a child. It's a valid question that needs attention. Painful, yes, anger, check, hurt, so much --- and maybe a lot of these emotions and questions are pointing at the person that is feeling so much grief right now --- your mother. You want to be there for her, protect her from all this hurt, but is little Daisy is wondering, where was she when you were hurting?
I wish you were able to hold onto your t right now. The relationship is so complicated, sometimes I think it messes up our mind way more than necessary. Maybe that pain is part of the unraveling of our old belief systems slowing falling away --- it's clinging desperately to past defensives while new coping strategies and realizations are forging ahead. Our brain at war.
There was a recent murder in our state that received much media attention. When they captured the husband (that confessed to chopping up his wife while the 2 young children slept) a reporter asked the county prosecutor if they had a motive. His reply, "One can never explain away evil." Isn't that the truth? Isn't that part of our struggle? In therapy sometimes we are trying to figure out, did we do anything that made evil come our way? And the answer is "NO" but we circle that topic over and over --- "if onlys" "I wonder why" etc. etc.
Try to take each day as it comes without looking ahead more than necessary. Hard to do, I know. It helped me last winter when I had too many things going on in my life at work + home + therapy. Have you ever tried simple breathing techniques to quiet the mind? I would sit in my closet, close my eyes and just concentrate on my breath. It only takes 10 minutes or so but it does work some.
I'm here for you.
Posted by Iwillsurvive on March 13, 2007, at 11:38:10
In reply to Looking into the Abyss, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 1:39:27
> I fell apart tonight in a way that I haven't for a few months. As much as it hurts to tell the stories, or as scary as it is to feel the rage, nothing compares with the loneliness that descends sometimes.
*I wrote that to T once. How we ultimately alone and stuff like that. She said I was a philosopher, and I wasn't wrong. I stuggle with my faith, cuz if I had good strong faith then I would know Jesus is with me, and sometimes I DO know, but sometimes I hate God too....its very confusing. So sometimes, when I feel real alone, I visualize that kid, she sitting there w/Jesus, and He DON'T touch her, but after awhile, she sometimes gets up the nerve to lean against Him, and it feels nice. Its OK. And then she not so alone.
>
> There was a death in my family a week or so ago. The impact was significant and all my siblings and I gathered together to support our mother and take care of things. But being with them felt suffocating to me. There were too many triggers and too much free floating grief -- sometimes I just had to get out of there. I found myself furious at all these people who knew me as a child -- why didn't they see I was suffering and stop to find out why? Was I so unimportant that I wasn't worth a second glance?**yeah. WHY? Thats been my word of the week. WHY? Its in big letters all over my journal lately. But I guess we don't get to know why right now. We just have to accept it was, and learn to cope I suppose...
>
> And I'm furious with myself for making it all about me. Why can't I put all this crap aside for awhile and just be there for my family, be with them as we grieve together? And some how I've lost my internalized therapist. He can't go with me around my family. They mess up everything that is important to me so he has to stay hidden from them, so that they don't take him away from me. But I feel angry with him too -- why can't he protect me from this enormous hurt? I hate this artificial relationship in which I feel safe for a little while. But reality comes knocking and there is no way to ignore the limitations of his care.**Faith, we have to have faith. In a higher power, or in our own power to care for ourselves. But give yourself a break Daisy, family stuff is hard for most people it would seem, w/o the addittional stuff. I think you have done well to be there AT ALL.
I remember one christmas, I dunno why it was so hard, but I couldn't be there, I ended up in another room, essentially hiding, it was awful. I think if it happens again, then this time I would just say I am unwell and leave. Cuz there was no point in my being there. And sometimes we have to make these choices to preserve ourselves, and it OK to do so. Just cuz people can't SEE the illness doesn't mean its not there, it IS. And its not our fault, its just the way our lives are.
>
> I made a list of stressors, trying to prove to myself that I have enough reasons to feel this bad and this overwhelmed:
> 1) Death of a loved one
> 2) Huge business crisis that has dragged on for 2 years without resolution and just when I thought that finally, finally we'd be done with it, I found out today that the rules changed in December and we aren't done with it.
> 3) just finished three separate audits at work and now we have a state site visit (tomorrow). So therapy gets pushed aside. Again.
> 4) getting a divorce that includes a custody battle
> 5) someone forged a check and drained my checking account. The bank agrees it is fraud and will put the money back, (in 10 days) but I had to close the account, cancel the credit cards and re-open everything. So I have no checks, no ATM, no CC, etc. for a week or more.
> 6) flashbacks, memories and other fun fall out of csa
> 7) I'm dreaming over and over that I've killed my therapist. All the ways are different, but inevitably he ends up dead. I wake up and that is it for sleep for the night.
> 8) I have three major presentations over the next 14 days that I'm not ready for.
> 9) I have my PhD fellowship project due in a month and I'm not done with that either.
>
> Yeah -- just shoot me. Even I can see that this list is too long and would make anyone insane. I'm going to finish self-medicating and put myself to bed before I can do any real damage. Thanks for listening,
> Daisy
>
**Never would shoot ya Daisy. I like you. Yup, this is an insane list.
Please take special care of yourself as you try and get thru it.
And don't worry so much about supporting your family, they can take care of themselves.
And mebbe you can tell yourself, and your little ones and/or bigger ones inside, that you doing amazing. This is hard, hard times. But you making it. You talking and working thru it. You are a good person who helps others. You have raised wonderful kids. You have lotsa love in you. You have made it this far and you gonna make it further. One day at a time, one hour at a time, one minute at a time, and sometimes unfortunately, mebbe second to second.
But it will pass this hard times, and get easier.
This is truth.
Take care.
Posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:13:41
In reply to think that list is long enough? ((daisy)) bgood2u (nm) » Daisym, posted by zenhussy on March 13, 2007, at 2:12:13
My therapist said today that it is a list that would make anyone proud to "whine" about -- he was using my words -- but I get it. I still wish I didn't feel so whiny.(or wine-y -- whatever.)
I'm trying to be good. I'm tired of being good.
Posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:21:39
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss, posted by annierose on March 13, 2007, at 6:51:48
Thank you for the ongoing support. I sort of let go in therapy today and just poured it out -- "I don't want you to have other clients, a wife, a life...nothing that takes you away from me." He was very calm and said he could see how much it hurt to have lost him for a few days and he totally understood why I was now feeling so possessive. I like that word - possessive sounds so much better than insanely jealous. We talked about the list I have and the weekend, but we kept coming back to how dangerous and scary it is for me to feel so attached to him again.
Here is the question he asked that needs answering: "who do you need permission from to be OK with loving me and needing me?" My first response was, "you." He said I have that and obviously it isn't enough. So I'm supposed to try to work on an answer tonight.
I'll try breathing tonight. It seems like a good idea.
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2007, at 19:24:20
In reply to Re: think that list is long enough? ((daisy)) bgood2u » zenhussy, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:13:41
> I'm trying to be good. I'm tired of being good.
>Me too. There are so many expectations. :(
Posted by Dinah on March 13, 2007, at 19:27:50
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » annierose, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:21:39
Maybe the answer is "you" and "you" and "you" and "you" and "you", etc.
My therapist had to say it so so many times before I believed it most of the time, and even then things are always coming along that make me think I'm wrong to believe it.
I think I could draw him a picture showing him all the pressures coming from so many angles telling me it isn't ok, and sometimes I need some help pressing back and saying it is.
Posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:29:23
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by Iwillsurvive on March 13, 2007, at 11:38:10
Sometimes I think God is testing my faith. Other times it feels intact, like it is a part of me that can't be taken away. I guess it is true that we aren't really ever alone, but I also can't tolerate the thought of God watching while I was abused and doing nothing. I'd rather think he stepped out of the room for a minute or two.
I used to believe and smugly say, "everything happens for a reason." I no longer believe that. I think random crummy things happen and we can make meaning from them, but there is no inherent purpose to tragedy.
It doesn't help to ask WHY - but I keep asking it anyway. And you are completely right - minute by minute is the only way sometimes to survive the load. Thanks for reminding me.
Posted by annierose on March 13, 2007, at 20:37:50
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Iwillsurvive, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:29:23
That's a great question and the answer needs some thought. I think my first reaction would be the same as yours "You, my therapist" and his reply made me smile. He is so smart and cute. And he does let you know over and over again that he isn't going anywhere --- don't you still have 487,000 phone calls left?
Maybe the real answer is Daisy. You need to know in your heart of hearts, in your quiet moments, that it is okay to love him. No one is going to punish you for sharing your hidden secrets --- no matter what they are and who they are about. Because in therapy, it's all about helping you, Daisy.
Sometimes when I write to you reminding you to be gentle to yourself, I guess it's sort of from the same line of thought. It's okay to put yourself and your needs first. In fact, it's more than okay, it's needed right now. Let your t help guide you through the next chapter of your exciting life. In chapter 5, I hear a younger man walks into your office and sweeps you off your feet. It's a slow romance but one that has your head swirling with talk of Paris and London. I can't wait to read what happens in chapter 6 - he wants to meet your T - the other man in your life.
I'm here for you.
Posted by sunnydays on March 13, 2007, at 21:45:15
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » annierose, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:21:39
"I don't want you to have other clients, a wife, a life...nothing that takes you away from me." He was very calm and said he could see how much it hurt to have lost him for a few days and he totally understood why I was now feeling so possessive.
Oh Daisy. I'm sorry you are having such a hard time right now. That line brought tears to my eyes. I'm currently on 'vacation' and can't see my therapist for another week almost, and I'm missing him terribly. I emailed him tonight. But the little girl in me really identified with what you said, even if that wasn't where it was coming from in you. I just want to have my therapist all to myself and just soak up his caring all the time.
((((((Daisy)))))
Try not to work too hard. I try to believe that everyone needs a little break sometimes, although that's easier said than done, I know.
sunnydays
Posted by Fallsfall on March 13, 2007, at 22:13:38
In reply to Looking into the Abyss, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 1:39:27
I would take some of your stress for you if I could. That is a pretty impressive list.
Put off whatever you can manage to put off. Pull the "There was a death in the family" card. There WAS. You should be able to get an extension on some stuff (particularly 8 and 9).
Don't worry about custody. There is no way you'll lose custody. He is a creep for trying.
Next time you have that dream, please call me. Have you talked to your therapist about the dream? Are you killing him out of anger, or is it inadvertent? You won't kill him. I promise you. Try the relax to sleep tape.
It is definately too much for you to deal with all by yourself. So reach out - to your therapist, to Babble, to me, to your elephant, to your cat, to your IRL friends. We'll help you through.
Love,
Falls
Posted by Daisym on March 14, 2007, at 1:25:25
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by Dinah on March 13, 2007, at 19:27:50
Maybe that is the answer -- I'm sure it is at least part of it. He often says, "it isn't what I say to you" but I remind him to say it anyway because my head needs to hear it, whatever "it" is at the moment.
But I think there is another voice that says caring about him this much is WRONG...(and stupid and presumptuous)not only because he is my therapist but because he is MARRIED (for gosh sakes!) and it just isn't right to have such intense feelings for a married man. So maybe the person I need permission from is his wife?
It is so confusing. Because intellectually I know that the therapy space is safe for any and all feelings - having them isn't acting on them. I can even go as far as to analyze the whole thing - I recognize that I was very worried that my mom would find out about what was going on between me and my dad and be angry at me. I was sure that she'd blame me and very bad things would happen. I can see how I'm worried that my therapist's wife might get angry if she becomes aware of my feelings for him. If she is angry enough, maybe he'll have to stop working with me. This isn't meant to imply that I think he has feelings for me, actually the opposite. But my need for contact with him scares me and I feel it must annoy the crud out of her.
He says I'm projecting all of this. And I can agree that it comes from an old, scared place. But knowing that doesn't turn the feelings off nor does it help me feel less anxious about it all. I desperately want it to be OK for me to be attached to him. It is just really hard.
Posted by Honore on March 14, 2007, at 7:06:37
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Dinah, posted by Daisym on March 14, 2007, at 1:25:25
Maybe you feel guilty about your T's wife, or afraid that she could take him away-- but I think it's still you who needs to give yourself permission.
She's a stand-in, maybe for your mother, but mostly for your own sense of blaming yourself for needing and wanting your T's love.
It's understandable that when you're with your family, you can't act "reasonably" and "generously"-- maybe you're reliving your childhood, and finally thinking that you deserve something different from whatyou had then-- indifference or insensibility to your pain.
Maybe a death seems to demand some "better" response-- but how can it, when you haven't resolved the pain and hurt from all the other years? Maybe this is different, intellectually== but emotionally, maybe it feels the same.
With a list like yours, I'd find looking into the abyss a bit of a relief. At least you forget your troubles and burdens for those few minutes. Not that it's worth it, or helps, over all-- but it's a kind of break.
Just know that that's what it is-- not really looking, but looking more to take your mind off a mountain of scary, hard things.
Maybe your T's wife wouldn't like it if she knew-- but she doesn't and won't. Your T has made a commitment to you that's inviolable. He won't let her know, because he knows his abilities and choices, and how to sustain them. He won't let you down; and he won't let her down either. Sometimes that's a loss, but it's also what makes everything between you possible and okay.
The person who needs to know that, and to accept it is you-- he already does. If you do, too, it really will become okay.
Honore
Posted by mair on March 14, 2007, at 21:53:08
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Iwillsurvive, posted by Daisym on March 13, 2007, at 19:29:23
>" Sometimes I think God is testing my faith. Other times it feels intact, like it is a part of me that can't be taken away. I guess it is true that we aren't really ever alone, but I also can't tolerate the thought of God watching while I was abused and doing nothing. I'd rather think he stepped out of the room for a minute or two.
>
> I used to believe and smugly say, "everything happens for a reason." I no longer believe that. I think random crummy things happen and we can make meaning from them, but there is no inherent purpose to tragedy."
>Daisy - This is totally off the point of your thread, but I found this post to be a simple but eloquent statement of how faith survives the occurence of awful events. Whatever faith I may have had never survived junior high school and I live in an area of the country where it is pretty unusual to hear people talk about their own faith. However, I'm also not totally ignorant about matters of faith - my father was a minister who also taught religion courses at a college and I took enough religion courses in college (thank goodness, not the college where my father taught) to come close to a major. I was just really struck by the way you explained this.
Your list is ridiculously overwelming for anyone, and frankly humbling. While I recognize that you've got much too much going on, I've always been incredibly impressed with how you've managed to hold things together with your job, maybe because work is my huge achilles heel. I think you have some pretty strong inner resources, one being your faith, and you seem to have a dedicated and loyal T, who I firmly believe is treating you because he wants to help you get through this. If you can find a way not to give up on your T and not to give up on yourself, I think you'll come out of this abyss just fine.
mair
Posted by Daisym on March 15, 2007, at 23:43:05
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by Iwillsurvive on March 13, 2007, at 11:38:10
We talked about Faith yesterday. My therapist asked me what my Priest would say. It is hard to presume to know. I think both men want me to have the comfort of God in my life and try very hard to support my anger as well as my faith. It gets tricky.
Family *is* hard, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who feels suffocated. I like the idea of skipping sometimes, but that can't happen right now. But my sister went home so things are a bit calmer. TG!
Posted by Daisym on March 15, 2007, at 23:49:17
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by Dinah on March 13, 2007, at 19:27:50
One of my favorite things about my therapist is that he cusses occasionally, usually at unexpected times. When I say, "I'm a cliche, people think it is ridiculous to be this attached to a therapist" he'll say, "F&ck them! Who are you going to believe, them or me?" :)
Permission is an interesting concept. I asked him today if permission has an expiration date and he said self-permission is super slippery so you have to keep giving it to yourself over and over again. I think it sounds like too much work.
Posted by Daisym on March 15, 2007, at 23:57:05
In reply to Re: The answer?, posted by annierose on March 13, 2007, at 20:37:50
I really don't need any more young men in my life. I'm looking for older, mature, gentle and someone who has had a therapy experience that will help them understand mine. But maybe I want a therapist, not a patient! (Is there such a web site?)
I am only able to give myself over to all these feelings for short periods of time. And then I pull up short and begin the craziness of worrying about it again. I told him we needed a pill to make attachment easier and stronger. He said he bets they are already working on one -- and I jumped in with, "boy, that could be dangerous for you. Imagine if all your patients were trying to slip you the attachment pill..." He laughed and then said, "they are." :)
Posted by Daisym on March 15, 2007, at 23:59:53
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss, posted by sunnydays on March 13, 2007, at 21:45:15
I hope you are finding at least a little bit of fun and rest on your vacation. I read that your therapist left you a voice mail. I think that is very special.
I think it is the little girl who is being possessive right now. I'm starting to figure out how being with my siblings has made me even more protective of what is mine. Old habit...
Posted by Daisym on March 16, 2007, at 0:06:06
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by Fallsfall on March 13, 2007, at 22:13:38
We spent a couple of sessions talking about the dreams, I'll post about it below. Thanks for offering to take some of the stress. You have enough of your own. I'm sort of used to carrying this load, it just gets pretty heavy now and then.
I am hanging on, my poor elephant is kind of soggy again. But she's used to that. I'll be fine. I'm always fine.
Thanks.
Posted by Daisym on March 16, 2007, at 0:32:16
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by Honore on March 14, 2007, at 7:06:37
Maybe you feel guilty about your T's wife, or afraid that she could take him away-- but I think it's still you who needs to give yourself permission.
****Guilt - yes. Afraid - totally.She's a stand-in, maybe for your mother, but mostly for your own sense of blaming yourself for needing and wanting your T's love.
****Needing someone's love has turned out poorly for me on several occasions. And those little kid parts still want to be taken care of, just like they did with my dad. Hard not to blame myself for what happened then, given the intensity of how I feel now. Don't want to hurt anyone else with my needs, you know?
It's understandable that when you're with your family, you can't act "reasonably" and "generously"-- maybe you're reliving your childhood, and finally thinking that you deserve something different from whatyou had then-- indifference or insensibility to your pain.
****I'm hoping that I have more dignity and pride than to give into the rage that flares around people who knew me as a child. Rationally I know they didn't know. Just like now, people don't know how much pressure I'm under and so they aren't careful or sensitive with me. I get upset about that, but then again, isn't it up to be to let people know? Just like it was up to me back then.Maybe a death seems to demand some "better" response-- but how can it, when you haven't resolved the pain and hurt from all the other years? Maybe this is different, intellectually== but emotionally, maybe it feels the same.
****Agreed. Sucks, but it is true. Which is why I was better off without awareness of emotions. I want to reclaim my ability to not feel things.With a list like yours, I'd find looking into the abyss a bit of a relief. At least you forget your troubles and burdens for those few minutes. Not that it's worth it, or helps, over all-- but it's a kind of break.
Just know that that's what it is-- not really looking, but looking more to take your mind off a mountain of scary, hard things.
****My therapist is convinced that a great deal of my suicial ideation is an escape fantasy. I need to believe that I can maintain the ultimate control and I can get out from under that list if I have to. There might only be one way - but at least there is a way. When the possibility of suicide is taken away - such as when the reality of what my death would mean to my children breaks through -- I get severely depressed and withdrawn. I can't talk nor work, I'm just so destroyed by the thought of the pain being never ending. So it is a balance - he doesn't take away my fantasy but he doesn't let me believe too strongly that it is truly a way out. He wants to replace this destructive belief with some kind of hope for the future. For now, he is willing to hold the hope.Maybe your T's wife wouldn't like it if she knew-- but she doesn't and won't. Your T has made a commitment to you that's inviolable. He won't let her know, because he knows his abilities and choices, and how to sustain them. He won't let you down; and he won't let her down either. Sometimes that's a loss, but it's also what makes everything between you possible and okay.
***I was so struck by what you wrote, because this is what he said yesterday. "She doesn't know, so how could she be mad?" I told him I would bet she does know he has a clingy patient - how could she not? She might not know it is me, but she knows. He said she is equipped to understand it if she did, she is a therapist too. I said it only means that she knows how deep my feelings could run. He told me he can take care of himself and he won't let me hurt him nor our relationship. I believe him most of the time.The person who needs to know that, and to accept it is you-- he already does. If you do, too, it really will become okay.
***I'm really trying. I can do it for a few weeks and then bang! I'm nervous again. I guess the legacy of abuse and abandonment lives on and on.Honore
*****Thanks so much. You made me think a lot.
Posted by Daisym on March 16, 2007, at 0:48:45
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by mair on March 14, 2007, at 21:53:08
Thanks for the nice words. I don't know how well I'm handling everything, I sure want to take Antigua's bat to a lot of things!
I have no idea how my faith survived. I think Church was such a sanctuary for me, I needed God because there was no one else to turn to. I'm sorry you lost yours, it helps in the darkest places.
Hugs, Daisy
Posted by annierose on March 16, 2007, at 6:53:20
In reply to Re: The answer? » annierose, posted by Daisym on March 15, 2007, at 23:57:05
>>> -- and I jumped in with, "boy, that could be dangerous for you. Imagine if all your patients were trying to slip you the attachment pill..." He laughed and then said, "they are." :) <<<<
I felt a little "ouch" in his response. I'm not sure I want to hear how my t's other clients are so attached to her as well.
Are you okay?
Posted by antigua on March 16, 2007, at 8:07:24
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » mair, posted by Daisym on March 16, 2007, at 0:48:45
My bat is always available at no charge. Remember, it's padded, so it doesn't hurt anyone. Very friendly bat, doesn't even get mad when I leave it out in the rain. It's the only way I know how to get out some of these feelings without self destructive bevhavior or biting someone's head off! Sometimes I get a sore arm, though, but that's my reminder.
Hang in there,
antigua
Posted by Daisym on March 16, 2007, at 9:54:56
In reply to Re: The answer? » Daisym, posted by annierose on March 16, 2007, at 6:53:20
Funny - no ouch for me. But I think it is because I don't want to be the biggest pain he has, I want him to see me as more normal than I feel. And he was clearly teasing...
And maybe I was focused, "wow - now that would be GREAT -- a pill to insure he won't get sick of me and terminate --- cool!" Aren't I sad?
*sigh*
Posted by Daisym on March 16, 2007, at 9:56:23
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Daisym, posted by antigua on March 16, 2007, at 8:07:24
Thanks for offering to lend it to me. I'm gonna clean house with gusto today and write papers banging on the keys furiously. I hope it makes me tired. I'm not sleeping much and that leaves way too much time for thinking.
How are things? You've been very quiet.
Posted by Fallsfall on March 16, 2007, at 10:57:44
In reply to Re: Looking into the Abyss » Fallsfall, posted by Daisym on March 16, 2007, at 0:06:06
>I'll be fine. I'm always fine.
But it is OK to ask people to help you be fine.
This is the end of the thread.
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