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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:39:37
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:25:16
and what sucks is knowing that if i really crash...
there is nothing that i can do
except that thing that you aren't supposed to do
that thing where people (after the fact) say 'oh my god i had no idea why on earth didn't she contact us?!)
but of course when you contact them (before the fact) you get 'why the hell are you calling us for and what do you expect us to do' and (implicitly) 'why don't you just f*ck off you insignificant piece of sh*t'and that there really isn't anything i can do...
except...
the typical things to get admission.
and i do so hate myself that it has to come to that
that i do have to manipulate and swindle
because there really isn't any other way that i can see
there are other ways when you work with someone and they get to know you...
but when thats not happening then there really isn't any other way.and i do wonder...
i do start to wonder at times...
abotu just how much the system has PROVOKED and ELICITED certain behaviours from me...
about just how much my problems (which are very real from my pov) have been created as an ARTIFACT of treatment...
Or more to the point
(excuse me for saying so)
F*cking INCOMPETENT treatment.Because what do you have to do?
What do you have to say?
To get a little help?
What do you have to do?
What do you have to say?
To get them to see you as a person instead of making all sorts of judgements and assumptions and predictions on the basis of their experience with other people who have the same dx as you?And so is it so very suprising that i get something that most people haven't seen before
(Now you can't judge me you f*ckers)
Is it so very suprising that I lose time
(Thats one way to get into hospital)
From my pov its very real...
But sometimes I do start to wonder...And mostly I'm just so f*cked off
so f*cked off
they gave me this
they gave it to me
they elicited
they reinforced
and now what do they expect?
what did they want?i understand now.
i understand.
they just wanted an excuse to have nothing to do with me.
thats what its about
thats what its always about
they won't work with me because therapy doesn't help me
they won't work with me because i'm all better now
they won't work with me because i'm too sick
excuses
and the excuses are inconsistent with one another
and when one excuse is shown to be false
they just invent another
not even caring if it conflictsand its pathetic
they are patheticbut i have to see...
i really have to see...that there is a message
and it is so very loud
it is so very clear
and it is something that i just can't accept
i just can't
because then there isn't any hope
and if there isn't any hope then there isn't any pointand i don't know what to do
i don't know what is to be doneand not everybody finds it hard to act according to their beliefs
and maybe...
i'm sicker than i think
and i dont' knowexcept that what are you supposed to do
when you have to use to get through
(otherwise you are counting th emeds in your stock and thinking about certain things you need to obtain)
but then using...
well...
the crash is inevitableand i don't understand what i'm supposed to do
except to stoppit
which i cannot
or to curl up and die
an di wish you could do it
just by willing it so
just by will.im sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:40:51
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:39:37
and now of course
i'll start thinking about what i'd like to do to them...and one day...
i really do believe...
that i will come to the belief...
that they have driven me to it.
Posted by Damos on October 6, 2005, at 1:45:56
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:25:16
Okay, so your last couple of posts have saved you a stern supportive talking to. Go out, get high and leave todays troubles behind and we'll see what tomorrow brings.
Try not to hate you too much okay. Please take good care of you.
Posted by muffled on October 6, 2005, at 9:49:02
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on October 6, 2005, at 1:45:56
Crashing sucks, but you'll be ok. Its just real hard for awhile. So hard to see anything else when yer there. We need you here. We want you here. You say good stuff.
Muffled.
Posted by orchid on October 6, 2005, at 14:28:54
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:40:51
Hi Alex,
It feels so painful to know you are suffering so much.
Please do remember that we care very much for you here.
I do have some suggestion, for people who didn't have a solid family structure in childhood, it is usually better if they can find some roots in some religious organization. Because unlike people you meet in regular life, people who are part of a religious group are usually very devoted to each other and caring. I remember that you said you don't have faith in God, but it might be possible to cultivate it, if you want. I think it is very important for you to feel as a part of a family or a group. But be careful not to fall in hands of a cult. But there are more moderate church groups or other religious groups which will perhaps give you the feeling of being really cared for.
Therapy as such is not enough for a good life. It is only a very minimal support. I remember you didn't have a good family environment in your childhood. I think it will be especially beneficial for you if you can atleast attend churches on sundays or any other relgious meetings, or for that matter, if relgious groups are totally not an option, you can even become part of some other group devoted to any social cause. IT might really be of great help to you. I have found through experience, that people of a groups devoted to a certain cause (either relgious or non religious) care deeper for each other than ordinary friends and social acquaintances do.
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 6, 2005, at 14:49:44
In reply to going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 23:38:32
(((Alex)))
Im sorry things are so hard. I wish I had some wise words... just remember we are all here. This isnt your fault, the medical professionals have let you down. they are obvioulsy lacking in trained, skilled therapists. Is there an inpatient program available to you? Maybe if you talked to your T about how you feel?
Please do not self destruct! Take care of yourself.
Dont make me swim to NZ!!
Posted by Deneb on October 6, 2005, at 16:10:37
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:40:51
Hi Alexandra
You've always helped me so very much, I think maybe you could give yourself some of the advice you give me? :-)
I have limited worldly knowledge, but here goes...
I think I know what you mean when you say that you try to get help, but then people seem like they don't want to help you so then you feel like you have to prove that you need help. This whole "proving" oneself can get dangerous sometimes, but it is the only way people will pay attention to us.
I have the same problem. It's horrible to think that others do not care. Sometimes it feels like I have to do something really horrible just to prove that I'm suffering.
I think maybe we should love and accept ourselves more...to realize that we will not disappear if people do not love or care about us. I think also that we should learn that when we have really bad feelings that it doesn't destroy us, that we *can* handle the emotions.
I think that life is not fair, but that is how things are. It isn't fair and people have to deal with it. Instead of concentrating on the things we wish we had or could do, perhaps we should focus on what we *do* have and what we *can* do. Maybe that is the only way for people like us to stay sane....to realize that some things will not get significantly better, but that we *can* live despite this and that we can still find joy in living.
I dunno, I don't have much wisdom, I'm just trying to figure things out myself.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on October 6, 2005, at 16:35:37
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:40:51
((((((((((((((Alexandra))))))))))))))
I just wanted you to know that I care about you and I'm sure lots of other people here care about you as well.
I hope you feel better really soon. Maybe try not to think so much of things (even though that must be really tough for a thinker like you!). Maybe mindless pleasure will lift your mood enough to get you out of the depression.
Deneb
Posted by Tamar on October 6, 2005, at 17:14:20
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2005, at 1:39:37
I’m sorry it’s so hard right now.
And I’m sorry you’re feeling there’s no hope.
I think you’re right. The excuses *are* inconsistent. And I think sometimes the theory is full of circular arguments. You’re the philosopher, so maybe you can spot it more easily than I can.
But you know you need therapy, no matter how circular or inconsistent their arguments against it. Your instincts are right. There are people who can’t benefit from therapy. But you know you’re not one of them.
I know your therapist has hurt you. It’s something that happens in every therapeutic relationship because therapists are flawed and sometimes they’re just not there. And it hurts so much. I think it’s because we attribute cosmic significance to it. It takes on a symbolic resonance or something like that.
And perhaps the same thing is true of the struggle for recognition by the people who make the decisions. They take on a symbolic significance. Their rejection reflects earlier rejections and contributes to the pain. I’m sure I’m not saying anything you haven’t already thought of.
If you can find some hope somewhere, or delay the hopelessness, maybe… maybe things will begin to seem easier.
I would suggest that Plan A is to give your therapist a piece of your mind about not being there. If she’s a good therapist she can take it.
I hope things improve soon.
Tamar
Posted by Damos on October 6, 2005, at 17:33:21
In reply to going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 23:38:32
I just realised your last wobbly *period* was around Sept 8-9 from memory....Hmmmmmm
Posted by gardenergirl on October 6, 2005, at 17:38:08
In reply to Alex - check the date, posted by Damos on October 6, 2005, at 17:33:21
> I just realised your last wobbly *period* was around Sept 8-9 from memory....Hmmmmmm
Yep, I think Alex and I are on the same schedule. I just checked my own calendar. Who knew women could affect each other across miles and ocean?
At least I hope that's all it is, for both of us.
Alex, email me if you want to chat. Or even email me and I'll give you my cell number. It would be nice to hear a friendly voice, even if it's another wobbly one.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Damos on October 6, 2005, at 17:51:18
In reply to Re: Alex - check the date, posted by gardenergirl on October 6, 2005, at 17:38:08
> Alex, email me if you want to chat. Or even email me and I'll give you my cell number. It would be nice to hear a friendly voice, even if it's another wobbly one.
>
Yes, either of you can text, call or email me if it'll help. damien.faulkner@aexp.comCare about you both.
>
Posted by Angela2 on October 6, 2005, at 23:49:41
In reply to going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 23:38:32
Alex, I have been through this too. Even yesterday I was thinking, maybe I should quit therapy for a while. But I know for myself that I can't do that. I need the support and I need someone to help me see things clearly. Not everyone needs that though.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 7, 2005, at 6:58:10
In reply to Re: Alex - check the date, posted by Damos on October 6, 2005, at 17:51:18
For your post here, for your kind babblemail, and for caring about our friend alexandra.
Thinking of both of you....
gg
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 7, 2005, at 10:17:09
In reply to going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 23:38:32
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 17:18:33
In reply to How are you doing? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by rainbowbrite on October 7, 2005, at 10:17:09
hello. i want to go through and respond to everyone - but must have coffee so i'll just write a general response first.
wow. once again people here touch me so much. i actually got my period when i was in Melbourne but i think the excitement of that put things off a little... and so i waited a few days till i had come back here before crashing. usually i get it the day or two beforehand, but this time not till afterwards.
and so i went on a bit of a bender...
but i don't feel like i've crashed.
i think i'm going to pick myself up and keep on...
and i am so very grateful all of you are here.
thanks so much.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:11:21
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on October 6, 2005, at 1:45:56
thanks Damos.
and here i am...
and i need to reply to an email from you
(i'm not ignoring you - i promise)and i'm sorry i go off like that sometimes :-(
because...
i do get very self-absorbed.
i'm sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:12:12
In reply to ((((Alex)))), posted by muffled on October 6, 2005, at 9:49:02
thank you :-)
i do love getting your hugs
i'm glad you are here too
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:13:44
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on October 6, 2005, at 0:15:49
Hey Jenstar,
Sorry about that.
Your response helped heaps...
And then the effects of one too many drinks kicked in.
But thanks for being here
I really enjoy your posts.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:21:19
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy » alexandra_k, posted by orchid on October 6, 2005, at 14:28:54
Hey.
> Please do remember that we care very much for you here.
:-)
Yeah. I need to get better at remembering. Because that really does mean the world to me. Makes life worth living in fact. And sometimes... It feels like it just isn't enough... But thats when things really do seem to fall apart. Mostly... Mostly this place is a godsend with respect to prevention and helping one get back out of it. And... I really don't know what I would do without you all.Hmm. Church.... Hmm. I really don't think church is for me. Have had some bad experiences there what with being kicked out for demonic possession etc etc. But a group... Some sort of group could be good for me.
Greenpeace or something like that... Might help me feel better about myself. Might make me feel better for doing things in line with my beliefs. Or something like that. There is only so much that one can do for the decriminalisation of mj cause without getting oneself into trouble (and a criminal record would mean i would be stuck in little old nz...)
And there is something else too... I really have been meaning to get some use out of my camera and get into taking some shots. And well, Dr Bob inspired me a little while back with his shots of the Babble meet. And so I've got a couple that I quite like now, and have been doing a bit of travelling (so I'm not so stuck with cows and ugly buildings) and I have enjoyed doing that. And I have a couple of friends who are into it as well... And we have been talking about going to the photographic society because they have people of all levels with all kinds of cameras. And so... I might just do that.
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:24:56
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy » alexandra_k, posted by rainbowbrite on October 6, 2005, at 14:49:44
Hey Rain...
I was checking my emails... And I found an email from you. I don't check it very often because nobody seems to email to that address anymore... But anyway... Now I feel... Hmm... Whats the word... I feel like a right drongo for going on about other people ignoring me... Because if I actually check my emails I see that there are emails that other people have sent me only I didn't know they were there, and so it turns out that those other people probably think that I am ignoring them...
Sigh.
I do hope I have properly snapped out of this
(I think I have, I think I have)
:-)> Dont make me swim to NZ!!
LOL!
Are you sure???
I could put the jug on...
Or you could bring one of those leave-it-there-all-day coffee contraptions with you ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:34:36
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on October 6, 2005, at 16:35:37
Hey :-)
> I think maybe you could give yourself some of the advice you give me? :-)
Ah. Its hard for me to see what to say in my case sometimes...
So much easier to say what I think about other peoples...
Thats why other people (who have a little distance) can help so very much.>I think I know what you mean when you say that you try to get help, but then people seem like they don't want to help you so then you feel like you have to prove that you need help. This whole "proving" oneself can get dangerous sometimes, but it is the only way people will pay attention to us.
Yeah. It really does seem that way sometimes. And sometimes... I really think it is that way. I think it can be different when you are working with a clinician, though. Because they get to know you and you can work out a plan of action for crisis situations beforehand.
For me...
At this point I think I have a 'do not admit' comment on my file. When I phone CAT they typically put you off till they have seen your file... And they look for the CAT reccomendation or something like that... And, well, I'm not so sure that any of the stuff there is very up to date. And I think there is a 'no admit' statement there. And so when I ring they are so very intent on getting me the hell off the phone. It was different when I was working with a p-doc. Because I'd call him and I'd feel that I could say 'I really think I'm losing it and I need a couple of days / a week to get on some meds and find the path again' and that was listened to. But without a p-doc onside... Not so.
> I have the same problem. It's horrible to think that others do not care. Sometimes it feels like I have to do something really horrible just to prove that I'm suffering.
Yeah. Though thats not the way...
Something is going wrong :-(
I really think that is why it is so very important to have a clinician onside.
Even when one has one onside sometimes one has to put up with all sorts of sh*t from the nurses...
But it is easier to bite ones lip when someone believes in you...((((Deneb)))))
Thanks so much.
Just knowing that other people feel like this sometimes helps
And knowing that the feeling passes
(Thats so very hard to remember)
But knowing that the feeling passes
And that things won't always seem that way
Really is very important
But sometimes its hard to remember that for yourself
And so other people are invaluable.And you help me too :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:47:18
In reply to (((((Alex))))) » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on October 6, 2005, at 17:14:20
Hey.
Yeah, the 'excuses' are inconsistent.
Because they are rationalisations so that people don't have to take me on.
But they are rationalisations from people who weren't suited to working with me.
Rationalisations from people who didn't want to see me.
The trouble with their rationalisations is that they turned them into generalisations too...
'I can't help her therefore nobody can help her'
'She didn't get better when I was giving her therapy therefore she won't get better if anyone else gives her therapy either'
And so on and so forth.
And I have hit them up about that...
About how they are making generalisations that are unfair to me.
Generalisations that do not take into account that I have managed to make significant progress with some clincians.
Went from being an inpatient more than an outpatient over a period of a couple of years...
Into supported accomodation with people who had chronic schizophrenia etc...
To going back to university and (nearly) completed a masters degree, and doing tutoring, and getting scholarships, and going to conferences etc.
And so if that doesn't count as OBJECTIVE progress, then what the f*ck does?????But then they just hang their heads and say that the sad truth is that there isn't anyone within the service who is suitable / willing to work with me.
And I reckon...
That they just need to give me a chance :-(
And there surely must be someone...> I know your therapist has hurt you. It’s something that happens in every therapeutic relationship because therapists are flawed and sometimes they’re just not there. And it hurts so much. I think it’s because we attribute cosmic significance to it. It takes on a symbolic resonance or something like that.
Yeah. I know I'm fairly sensitive to rejection at the best of times... But I have been thinking for a long while now... That me and my current t are not particularly well suited to one another. And so... I'm wondering whether what is going to happen... Is that the problems and frustrations are only likely to increase...
And I am worrying about her giving me hugs...
Because I do agree that being able to hold with your voice and what you say is better...
But we don't seem to be able to manage the latter...
And I think that is why she is resorting to the former...
But that that doesn't speak very well of good boundaries...
And good boundaries really are so very important to me...
And I'm not sure...
I don't know...
> And perhaps the same thing is true of the struggle for recognition by the people who make the decisions. They take on a symbolic significance. Their rejection reflects earlier rejections and contributes to the pain. I’m sure I’m not saying anything you haven’t already thought of.Yeah. I've thought about it a lot...
But knowing that doesn't seem to help me CHANGE my emotional responses...
And doesn't seem to help me CHANGE my behaviours either...
So I'm not sure whether its because I'm missing something, missing something important with respect to understanding...
Or whether it is that knowing it rationally isn't going to help
Untill I get to work through this with someone
Because some things it doesn't help so much to rationally know that thats whats going on...
Some things you need to experience...
Till the intensity lessens off.
And I dont' think I have a clinician who is going to be able to help me with that...> I would suggest that Plan A is to give your therapist a piece of your mind about not being there. If she’s a good therapist she can take it.
But...
I've done this to her before...
I really don't think...
I can say anything.
:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:49:44
In reply to Re: Alex - check the date, posted by gardenergirl on October 6, 2005, at 17:38:08
> Yep, I think Alex and I are on the same schedule. I just checked my own calendar. Who knew women could affect each other across miles and ocean?
hmm. seems you were right about being affected just after too...> At least I hope that's all it is, for both of us.
yeah. i guess it would make sense...
> Alex, email me if you want to chat. Or even email me and I'll give you my cell number. It would be nice to hear a friendly voice, even if it's another wobbly one.thanks gg :-)
i'm feeling a lot better now...
but i would like to call you someday...
it is a riot hearing all the funny accents in the world if nothing else ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 7, 2005, at 18:51:16
In reply to Re: going to quit therapy » alexandra_k, posted by Angela2 on October 6, 2005, at 23:49:41
hey.
yeah...
it is a hard one.
i do feel that i need it...
it is just that i can't get it...
and so i guess that puts pressure on whether it is a real 'need' or just a 'desire'.
> Alex, I have been through this too. Even yesterday I was thinking, maybe I should quit therapy for a while. But I know for myself that I can't do that. I need the support and I need someone to help me see things clearly. Not everyone needs that though.
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