![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Damos on September 12, 2005, at 22:54:38
In reply to Re: self-control » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 12, 2005, at 19:10:43
Key Kiddo,
Okay here goes. A couple of things you said in your reply to me stood out. (Oh I just want to warn you that I'm gonna refer to your 'internal family' if that's okay, alters just seems too cold to me) I'll also ask for your forgiveness now if I'm talking total sh*t.
>But I don't seem to be able to stop it.
>And I was just kind of screaming at myself to shut the hell up and stop it. But just kind of feeling like I was just observing myself going on and on and on .....
Was the screaming inside or out loud? Part of me suspects that it wasn't 'you' Alexandra_k that lost it. I'm wondering that if because as we suspect this is actually old stuff that is being played out, that possibly one of your internal family is actually coming to the fore at the point of triggering. Which would kind of explain the sensation of 'screaming at myself' and 'I was just observing myself'. From the little I understand of DID it is possible that one of your internal family can hold all the responsibilty for a specific emotion and that they will act in an effort to protect you and the entire family when a trigger event is tripped. It's also my understanding that sometimes a member or members of your internal family can take on the characteristics of the 'abuser' but still be trying to protect you in a weird kind of way.
This would kind of fit with the piece you post before about what happened with your partner.
> and it was all because I had a stomach bug
>was throwing up
>and he said he'd get me some pill to take
>to stop the nausea
>and my partner said
>'what good is that going to do when she is just going to throw it up again'
>and if he knew the answer to that that was the time
>but he didn't
>and somehow or other things got worse
>and she stood up and yelled a little
>and he was a small man
>and he felt threatened>and somehow...
>that's my fault.For whatever reason the lines
'and if he knew the answer to that that was the time'
'but he didn't'
Are really key. Really, really important. It seems to me that you needed something to happen there that you'd needed to happen before. The players were different but the scenario was the same, familiar. And so even though it wasn't mum and dad, mum and whoever, it further entrenched something and maybe someone inside has taken on that role of 'aggressor protector', that really stems from mum.And again in another post about the last appointment:
>The trouble is...
>Being at more than one place at a time.
>That's how it feels.
>Or like being in two different places at one time.
>It's like I'm being split between present and some time in the past.
>And I can see this happening
>But I feel like an observer
>Powerless to stop it.And
>...how I feel is just like when I was a little kid and I'm living with my mother and in my room mostly and so f*cking lonely only I don't that's what it is and I'm thinking WHY WON'T SOMEONE F*CKING HELP ME and nobody does and nobody comes.
Your internal family and the way you engage in the world were created for your own protection, to help you survive. The behaviour and reaction is so ingrained and automatic that you are not even probably fully aware of when the change happens. Maybe these reactions are still coming from the ages and places where they were created, maybe they haven't grown and evolved into what is appropriate and effective for Alexandra_k the age you are now, and the way you need and want to function in the world. And they don't know this, they just know you need to be protected, and when they are triggered you ARE actually being pulled between the then and the now. But see this knowledge is the key to change. They are simply trying to protect you. Maybe it is them you need to be talking to before you go in. This is probably going to sound really odd, but I've heard you say to Kerria about how important it is to treat your internal family with respect, so maybe you could hold a meeting and incorporate some of what Tamar was talking about, discuss simple things like who will be there and who won't, who will speak on behalf of the family. Maybe you can all find a safe place to keep the triggering memories for a couple of hours so that you can all stay clearly in the present during the appointment. I'm just talking here. See, if you can contain the triggering memories that's half the battle. You don't want to make them go away cause you need to be able to access them to really work with your therapist, but you all need to be able to work together on ways to put them away when they aren't appropriate/effective.
One thing you really need to be clear about is that you have nothing to be ashamed about - nothing. Things that should never have happened did. And you developed this quite amazing way of surviving. Given the enormous investment that went into it, it's no wonder it is so difficult to not be that way. You should be so very proud of yourself, for you have achieved so very much already. YOU are not to blame.
Your friend,
Damos
Posted by Damos on September 13, 2005, at 0:32:51
In reply to Re: self-control » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 12, 2005, at 19:10:43
> Thats actually what my t said...
> Thats what got me thinking about that.
> And she thought it wasn't just about my dad...
> Its about everybody..
> Because when I was little..
> Nobody did a goddamned thing to help me.> Yeah, thats right. But I don't seem to be able to stop it... Last time I'd say 'I'm sorry - its not about you, I know its not your fault'. And I knew that and I meant that. But then I'd keep on. And have to say it again. And round and round I'd go. And I was just kind of screaming at myself to shut the hell up and stop it. But just kind of feeling like I was just observing myself going on and on and on...
>
> ??
> Not sure what you mean there.. I hadn't thought of that.. Do you mean about my mother scaring everybody away from me?
>
Damn Alex, damn, damn, damn. It just occurred to me how right your T is. It's just occurred to me that if I put myself in your place, your history. The anger would be at ME. Because I would have blamed myself for everything that happened. I would have been angry at me because way, way deep down inside it would be all my fault, there must have been something wrong with me for everyone/everything to be like this. This would have been my thinking right from the start and everything would have just reinforced that.I'm so sorry Alex. It's not your fault, you're not to blame. Not then, not now. Even if just a little of each of these is true, it's such a big thing.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 13, 2005, at 19:48:58
In reply to Re: self-control » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 13, 2005, at 0:32:51
Hey. You have given me a lot to think about.
I'm not so sure what to say.
I need to have a think...
Posted by Damos on September 13, 2005, at 19:55:50
In reply to Re: self-control » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 13, 2005, at 19:48:58
> Hey. You have given me a lot to think about.
> I'm not so sure what to say.
> I need to have a think...No need to say anything.
Just be kind to and take good care of you.
I'd offer to lend you some additional brain cells, but mine would only slow you down ;-)If you need me to explain what the heck I was thinking, you know where to find me :-)
Posted by kerria on September 13, 2005, at 21:48:22
In reply to self-control, posted by alexandra_k on September 12, 2005, at 3:39:35
(((((((alexandra)))))))
i'm sorry that it's so hard and that you're being triggered.
If he's knowlegeable he will understand about parts and that we can't help it when we're not in control.It's not your fault that you have parts. The best thing is to ignore all the worries the best you can and just reveal together that you like him and want to have him as your T.
staying in the present helps.
love,
kerria
Posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2005, at 19:11:16
In reply to Re: self-control (long) » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 12, 2005, at 22:54:38
It took me a while to think about that. There is a lot there... And I have to be a bit careful...
Yeah, it feels like I'm just observing them doing their thing sometimes. Powerless to stop them. But then there is this really hard thing of my having to take responsibility for their actions because they are the actions of my body and that is the way it has to work. So to keep on about 'they said' 'they did' isn't really a very helpful way to think about it sometimes because it is so easy for that to become a way of refusing to take responsibility for something that I have to take responsibility for. But then how on earth am I supposed to describe what is happening? Thats why I try to keep it at the 'I feel as though...' level.
But the meeting... Is a good idea. And so is the contracting. I do have a bit of communication but I don't think it is really up to that... I don't have a 'all hands on deck' call or anything like that. I can't summon them at my whim. Sometimes I don't even know if they are listening or not. Mostly they initiate conversation. Or if I get a lot of mental pictures (kind of like flashbacks or mental pictures of my body doing things when I had a period of missing time) then I can usually initiate conversation to find out what thats about. Sometimes... But it is hard work and it can take a couple days sometimes. And one of them doesn't talk she pretty much just screams. I'm not sure how much she understands what I'm saying to her.
But... Mindfulness exercises might be the way to go there... Try a 'all hands on deck' call and try and get everybody to participate in the exercise. I think thats what my old t thought mindfulness exercises could be about for me... And maybe conversations too... I don't know. Worth a try I guess. But it is hard. Just thinking about doing that frightens me.
I have this box. A little wooden box. My old t gave it to me when she left. She put some little objects in it. A piece of crystal, a piece of turquoise, a bead, a shell. She said it was a mindfulness exercise and I think that was right but it got me thinking... The first thing I thought was that each object was supposed to be a bit of me. Because then I thought there were three others. I thought she meant that I had to learn to take a bit out of the box and just be aware of it for a while. Learn to do that.
But then after she left... I found another one. And I wasn't sure what to do with that. And I wondered about what I was supposed to be anyways... Was I just another piece inside the box, or was I the box?
I hadn't really looked inside the box for a while... But I went to do a mindfulness exercise and... There are more objects in there now. And it frightens me :-( And I still don't know whether I'm the box or what. I tried to pick them up and find out who they belonged to but I couldn't... Everything just felt all broken up and confusing... I went through who had what in the first place but I don't even know whether things are the same there or what. Sometimes I wonder... If they can split. If they can split themselves so where there was one of them before, there can be two of them now. It is like they can multiply and I'm left wondering whether the same one is there with an offshoot or if that one has gone now, properly split into two others and neither of them is the one that was before.
I don't know. It feels so horribly confusing...
And as for playing out the same saga... I think you are right. But its hard. Its hurtful. Its horrible to see that. I guess it is a bit bizzare... My mother was such a force. I feel like she was such a force and I wasn't the only one who was powerless against her. Everybody was. And my father just kind of stood by and never stood up to her. Never stood up for me. I remember running to him and begging him not to let her hit me. And she would come into the room and he would just kind of stand aside. And physically, if it ever came down to that, physically he could have stopped her. But he never did. Not once. But I didn't feel mad at him, I felt sorry for him. And then he left. And I thought he would come back and get me because if anyone knew what she was like it was him. And he knew the sorts of things she would do to me. But to be fair it got a lot worse once he left and maybe he didn't know about any of that. But I thought he would come back for me. He hardly ever saw me. He was supposed to see me once a month. But he wouldn't call... Or something would come up... I saw him maybe once every three or four months...
But I thought he would come back for me. I was about thirteen or fourteen when I realised he wasn't going to. He had never intended to. I ran away and eventually... Was put in a home. He never came to see me there. Not even once.
And it is hard because I feel caught. He could have done something but he didn't. Why not? He didn't care about me. Thats the best I can figure. Yeah he is avoidant. He just wanted to get the hell away from her. But why couldn't he have taken me with him? I don't understand that. And a few years back when one of my p-docs said to him that I felt like he had abandoned me when I was a kid he went off. I did NOT abandon my daughter!' But what else could it be? Of course he did.
And it plays out over and over...
Why won't somebody help me?
Why won't somebody do something?
But of course nobody can now anyway because nobody can rewind time.
And so there are people...
But they are powerless to do anything.
And the rage wouldn't be so bad if it was directed at myself...
But the trouble is that it isn't...
Its directed at people when it isn't their fault.And I just think...
Nobody gives a sh*t.
And they just want to get the hell away from me.And its my own doing.
Because no matter how many years go by
And I don't see her
Its not that the memory fades
Because the memory is in the present
And she is there living inside of me
Hurting and hating everybody.
And of course there is nothing anybody can do.
But knowing that doesn't change my rage
That all the way back there there was something that somebody could have done
And he didn't.
And I will never forget.And I remember all the way back...
When I was a little kid.
Lying there in my bed.
Terrified.
Waiting for her to come in my room and grab me
And haul me out of bed
So she could yell at me and hit me for a bit
For something...
Maybe something was out of place around the house
Maybe I looked at her funny a couple days ago
Maybe one of my teachers phoned her about my skipping class
It didn't matter why
It just mattered that it could happen at any minute
And I had to be prepared.
And I made a vow to myself that I would never forget
I would never forget that
And I haven't forgotten
But look at what I've done
:-(And I just need to forget all this now
I'm sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2005, at 20:50:43
In reply to Re: self-control » alexandra_k, posted by kerria on September 13, 2005, at 21:48:22
hey there.
thanks for your response.
((((((((kerria)))))))))
(I figured you could use a hug too)
I have been reading that things are pretty hard for you at the moment...
Sometimes I find it hard to know what to say in response...
But things have to get better for us.
Oh yes, they do
:-)
Posted by Damos on September 14, 2005, at 20:59:33
In reply to Re: self-control (long) » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2005, at 19:11:16
I've made you feel terribly frightened and scared and hurt you too. Not sure I can forgive myself for that :-(
Please don't do anything that frightens you. Please don't. And please don't be sorry, it's my fault. My help always winds up being just more hurt. I'm sorry :-(
:-(
:-(
:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2005, at 21:19:46
In reply to I'm sorry........ » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 14, 2005, at 20:59:33
its okay don't beat yourself up i just have to be careful im sorry
Posted by Damos on September 15, 2005, at 0:31:11
In reply to Re: I'm sorry........, posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2005, at 21:19:46
> its okay don't beat yourself up i just have to be careful im sorry
I know you do kiddo, I know you do. Don't be sorry. Feeling your pain, and hurting about having made you re-experience it just reminds me how much I care.
Posted by muffled on September 15, 2005, at 17:34:42
In reply to Re: I'm sorry........ » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 15, 2005, at 0:31:11
Posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2005, at 17:45:31
In reply to Re: I'm sorry........ » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 15, 2005, at 0:31:11
thanks
:-)
it does help to know that people care.
i'm okay.
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2005, at 20:08:53
In reply to Re: I'm sorry........ » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 15, 2005, at 0:31:11
i just wanted you to know... that i really am okay. it is hard. i guess that sometimes i forget how fragile i can be. but it is all there sort of... sort of in the background but stuff keeps coming and going too... and what you said was good. it was pretty much right. and it did get me thinking. and i had been thinking about it a bit at any rate. so it really is okay. and i did think about it for a while and it does seem a little clearer to me now. and i feel pretty much okay about it. because it never really occured to me that i never did feel mad at my father for just standing by. i guess i couldn't afford to be mad at him. if i was mad at him then everybody in my world (both my parents) didn't care for me and that would have been too much to bear. he never actively hurt me. he was pretty kind in many respects. and i guess i just held on to my ideal as something to get me through... and so i said i didn't feel mad at him i felt sorry for him. but maybe part of me did feel mad at him after all its just that i couldn't afford to feel that. i remember feeling sorry for him. i guess so i would behave sympathetically towards him. so i would be bearable for him to have around. so he might... take me with him.
and thats okay. i'm okay with that.
but the therapist thing is hard...
really hard.
i guess my anger comes out now because it is (relatively) safer.
i do worry that people won't work with me if i am too unbearable to be around :-(
and my being angry with them when they haven't done anything has gotta be a pain in the *ss...
but i don't know...
maybe in a funny way it is for my protection.
because the anger has to come out at some point.
and while i am responsible...
and while i know that there isn't anything they can do
and while i know that there isn't anything they could have done
the anger is there.
and if they can't handle that then they need to bow out quickly
because there is no way in the world i want to be left trying to deal with that by myself.
no way
Posted by muffled on September 15, 2005, at 21:17:49
In reply to Re: I'm sorry........ » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2005, at 20:08:53
Posted by Damos on September 15, 2005, at 21:29:42
In reply to Re: I'm sorry........ » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2005, at 20:08:53
Hey kiddo :-)
I know you're okay. A little (okay maybe more than a little) scared and confused but okay. I'm gonna have to take today as a sick day cause all I have done is write and re-write a post to you about what you said in your reply to me. I trusted that you were okay, because I trust that you know your limits. I am honoured that you trust me enough to go where you did and to share it with me. What you said in that post was really significant and really important in so many ways. What you have said in this post is too. I hope you know that I would never be careless with your feelings. And that I would not ask or suggest things that will make you go to those places unless the answer was really important. All I'm trying to help you do is find a bit of/a better perspective on things and in the process release some of the pressure. I think these posts are really important to share with your T. I'll apologise now if I repeat myself in the big post and for it being so darn long, just seems there is a lot to say.
Thank you for your trust, your friendship and your courage, they mean more than you know. Just know you're not walking this road alone.
Posted by Damos on September 15, 2005, at 22:36:31
In reply to Re: I'm sorry........ » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2005, at 20:08:53
First; I want you to know that I will not be refering to the past or asking you to think about things that are painful or hard here. We've done enough of that for one week.
Second; I want you to know that when I do ask you to think and talk about those things it is because the answers and the feelings they reveal are really important. I wouldn't ask if they were not. I hope you know I would never be that careless with your feelings.
Third; I have no training as a T or a counsellor and no first-hand experience of either, so anything I say here comes from what I have read, what I sense, and from listening to you with my heart.
Alex, your post is a really, really important post and one I think your T should see, maybe most of the thread. Thank you for going to those places and for sharing those things, it means a lot.
I'm going to walk through that post and just tell you what it says to me, okay, because it says a lot.
Yes, you have to be a bit careful. You will always be the best judge of how far and how fast you can go and I will always respect that. But there will also be times when hard questions will need to be asked, in the full knowledge that the answers are going to be hard for you give and so very hard for us to hear. But it will be necessary.
What you said about responsibility is absolutely true, as far as it goes. You, Alexandra_k as you are right now does feel the 'need' to be responsible for the actions of the entire being and that is a perfectly normal feeling. I'd be worried if you didn't feel that way. What's hard to grasp and accept is that each part of you probably feels exactly the same. They act the way they do because they feel 'responsible' and need to act in a particular way at a particular time because that's why they are there. It sounds as though all the parts are totally independent. But maybe that is not entirely true either. It is actually more likely that the various parts 'depend' on each other to be and do specific things that they cannot. If you think of it as a continuum, growth moves from dependent to independent to interdependent. So what you said to me sounds like you are somewhere between dependent and independent (where the parts would be acting in isolation and on their own initiative). Where you want to be is interdependent - "to choose to develop enduring, cooperative relationships, where we seek mutual benefit, interact empathically and value the differences." Essentially where each part takes personal responsibility for itself and for the whole, and chooses to act in the best interest of the whole. This requires communication.
Holding meetings and stuff are things your T needs to work with you on. And I believe there is much to be done before it is safe to do those things. I had to ask in order to know. My suggestion came from being a team leader who once had a individual working for me who always managed to somehow disrupt and de-rail meetings. So I took to having a pre-meeting with them on the basis that I respected them and their contribution to the team but that I needed them to work with me to achieve a particular outcome, and that no matter how 'triggered' they felt during the actual team meeting that I really needed them to trust me and sit with their unease for the benefit of the whole team.
Alex, from what I understand, a person with a dx of DID has had on average 7 dxs before DID is finally arrived at. Apparently BPD is a pretty common one to be given. This says to me that there is probably a whole lot of pretty ineffective treatment that has gone on too. From stuff you've said in the past it sounds like there has been some 'starting in the middle'. Trying to work with the trauma. I think your old T, the one that gave you the box was getting at starting at the start. I think it was maybe even more for awareness than 'mindfulness' or maybe we are saying the same thing with different words. The fact that the thought of communication and conversations frightens you so means that there is a lot of foundational work that hasn't been done. I think the official term is Stabilisation.
We have talked about your little wooden box before, and I know that the last time you openned it it frightened you. Alex, you need to know that what you saw is okay. Apparently some people's internal systems are so fluid and ever changing that it's hard to ever have a clear picture. It could also be that as you reach for greater understanding you are simply becoming more aware of what's there. Either way it is okay and not something to be frightened of, though I know it feels all broken up and confusing. The box and the objects may have been her way of helping you to 'map the system'. One of the key parts of any project plan I develop is a Communications Diagram. It's about mapping all the people involved in the project, their roles and responsibilies, who they report to, and their preferred means of communication etc. As hard as it is, it is the building of the awareness of all the parts of your self and what they 'need' that is the critical first step that everthing else builds from. Becoming aware of the various aspects of yourself is something that I and probably everyone else on Babble and most of those not on babble need to go through to. You are not different, you have just taken the separation of those aspects to a far greater degree. But it is important for you to know that we all show different faces and aspects of ourselves at different times, in different place, to different people, in reaction to different things - it's normal. As to whether they can split, honestly I don't know. Maybe they just become more clearly defined like concepts and terms in philosophy. Maybe they just step out from behind the bigger ones because things seem safer now. Honestly I don't know.
Alex it is this very awareness that helps you to establish the communications we spoke about. Do you trust your T? I do, because I sense that she really cares about you, the whole you and not just your dx. This is where she can really begin to help you. She can help you with the stabilisation. And this has to be the first step. These are the things that will help you get from moment to moment, day to day, to reduce the confusion. Unless this foundation is put in place, I'm not sure how you get to a place where dealing with the underlying trauma that caused the separation can ever really be dealt with without risking major disruption and potentially crashes. Your T can help you so much here if you'll let her. It is important that she helps you with the internal stress that simply having a dx of DID must cause. She can help you find ways to create safety for yourself. She can help you with how you see yourself. I know we both have negative beliefs about ourselves, whether or not we admit to anyone else. She can help you with these and this is important foundation work. Part of this stabilisation process is creating an environment where you feel safe to tell your stories like we have in this thread, because it is the very holding of the 'secrets' that is part of the problem. I hope our friendship, this place and your T can help you find that place. There is nothing you need to feel guilty or ashamed about. Yes I know that's easy for me to say. Bad stuff has to get out to create the space for good stuff to get in. Simply being able to tell the story helps release the pressure and the hold it has on you. My understanding is that handled well, this stabilisation work can take a year or more. It is hard because becoming more aware means dealing with thoughs, feelings and emotions that you may not really want to accept as part of yourself. But see, you've alread been incredibly brave in the way you have spoken to us about the anger and rage. You're doing it and it's relatively okay. It's this stabilisation work that will help you not react in the same old way. Your T is there to help you challenge and work through your beliefs, to help you build internal and external support, to help your learn to communicate with your parts and to encourage the communication. The process of stabilisation never stops. You need to maintain it even when you're workin gon other things.
I think the stabilisation work will really help with playing out the same saga. I actually think just having thought and talked it through will help in it's only way by having reduced the rawness and pressure of it. It's kind of like you've pulled it out held it up to the light "and there it is" - to use one of your phrases. The ability to work with this comes from being in a place where it's safe to do so. I don't need to say a lot more about the remainder of this post or the most recent one because it is all about your gaining a newer/better perspective on something that has been biting you on the bum for a very long time. I think there's going to be a lot of ambivalence experienced about things that come up, but as long as you can find a way to talk through both sides and gain a better perspective it'll be okay. As hard as getting here was, you've come an incedibly long way this week and there is a lot to go forward with, with confidence.
Enough for now.
Being your friend is a true joy and it helps me be better in so many ways. Thank you.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 20:35:31
In reply to The long, long one. » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 15, 2005, at 22:36:31
hey
i'm sorry you have been so worried about me
it isn't good to be taking days off work on my account :-(
you should do something fun with sick days... to to an amusement park or something ;-)i'm okay...
i just need to refocus on what i'm up to at the moment
all the practical stuff
thanks for being my friend
it means a lot to me.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 20:37:42
In reply to Re: The long, long one. » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 20:35:31
i'm sorry... i just... i don't know what to say. and i have to worry about getting my thesis done... and i might be going to confeence in melborne soon :-) but we have to see about funding approval etc etc... election today.. but nerve wracking... it is so close, so very close and there are a lot of worried people about now.
Posted by damos on September 16, 2005, at 21:11:01
In reply to Re: The long, long one., posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 20:37:42
Alex. You need to focus on what is important to you right now. Your thesis, the possible trip to the conference - what is important and matters to you. The rest will wait till you're ready. It's not like I'm going anywhere. In your time when you're ready.
You just take good care of you and remember to vote.
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 22:14:29
In reply to Don't need to say anything » alexandra_k, posted by damos on September 16, 2005, at 21:11:01
thanks.
> You just take good care of you and remember to vote.
thanks but...
i appreciate that this seems strange to most people but i choose to exercise my right NOT to vote.I mean...
I appreciate that I can vote if I choose
(And I'd be pissed if I wasn't allowed)
But its not a duty or an obligation
And...
I choose to exercise my right not to vote.That being said...
I will indeed be gutted if Labour doesn't pull it off...
Posted by Damos on September 18, 2005, at 17:08:35
In reply to Re: The long, long one. » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 20:35:31
Don't worry about it. I was here, just didn't really do any work and feel guilty about it so will take it as a sick day (I have 109 accrued).
Being your friend is absolutely my pleasure :-)
Posted by Damos on September 18, 2005, at 17:11:07
In reply to Re: Don't need to say anything » damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 22:14:29
Doesn't seem strange to me at all. I had a feeling you wouldn't, so I was kind of stirring.
Given the choice I probably wouldn't vote either most of the time. It take so much energy tryin g to work out who's the least worst.
Hope you have a good session today :-)
Posted by Damos on September 19, 2005, at 1:03:12
In reply to Re: The long, long one. » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2005, at 20:35:31
Hey :-)
Again, I'm not going to ask you to go anywhere or think about hard stuff. It's just about adding another perspective to what you've said about your dad.
I've spoken about M and the miscarriage before, but not much about J her son. When I met M J was 4 and we just hit it off so great, it was like he was a missing piece of me. In the years leading up to M and I actually getting together we used to hang out a lot and J was always a big part of that so we'd got pretty close. When I moved out after the miscarriage J was around 9 and he asked me to take him with me. I was 23 and so not in a good place. The weekend I moved out he was with his father and so I didn't get to see him to say goodbye. When I next saw him he was around 14 and the first thing he said to me was "You didn't say goodbye", and then a few months later he begged me to let him come and live with me - which just wasn't possible. When they moved to Western Australia in 2001 I went to see them off at the airport and J hugged me so tight I thought I was going to shatter into a thousand pieces. He also told me he loved me. A few days later after they'd got settled I got an email from M saying that since his father had left them when he was 3, I was the only man J* had ever hugged, and other stuff about how she could tell how much he loved me.
Well, he's now nearly 27, never finished school, has no real friends, an alcohol problem, symptoms of depression, and major self esteem issues. And I carry an enormous sense of guilt and shame over it all. Which isn't helped when he says stuff like "I always knew you loved me". I've told him how I feel and he says it's okay cause he understands, but it doesn't change anything about how I feel or what happened in the years I wasn't there - much of which probably doesn't bear thinking about.
Everytime I see him I can see the hurt in his eyes, hurt I can never undo. I see myself there too, a self that's pretty hard to like, and it makes spending time together hard. But I try cause I love him. I made the only choices I felt I could at the time, but it doesn't make things any easier.
For some people the responses to physical and verbal violence aren't as simple as 'Fight or Flight', for some they experience a kind of 'Freeze', where the emotional response to what's happening is so overwhelming they can't do anything except just shrink way down inside themselves and hope that it'll somehow miss them.
Alex, your dad probably made the only choices he felt he could at the time too. It's very likely he didn't believe he could get custody of you, and at the time that may well have been true. It's also possible he didn't think he was strong enough to fight your mum. It's also possible that once this choice had been made that guilt piled on top of guilt. He'd see you on those occasions and you'd just be as good as you could be and he'd just feel worse about his choice, so he'd pull away further and see you less and less cause it was too hard. Then when you ran away and stuff that would have just added to it even more, and to have faced you then would have meant facing himself and the consequences of his choices, actions and inactions. So later when put on the spot by your p-doc he would have had to deny abandoning you. He would have had no choice because otherwise his whole world might've collapsed around him. Denial was/is probably the only way to live with the weight of it. And then again, maybe he just didn't think he was capable of looking after you. I don't know and I may well be wrong on all counts, but he is the only one who can ever know the truth. It's hard to accept that our parents are only human and suffer from the same frailties and failings as any other member of the human race, cause we see and need them to be so much more.
Is it possible to forgive and forget? Honestly, I don't know. Is it possible to get to a place where the picture isn't so starkly black and white, where there is more depth and shades of grey? Yes. I believe it is, even if only for your own benefit. A place of possibilities, where what happened isn't all down to and held by you. A place where colour can emerge, like those black and white photographs you see where the flower of the rose is coloured red. Sometimes life can be like watching movies over and over; you can get to a point where you know the main (your) story so well that you actually start seeing more of what was happening in the background.
Hope this helps a little.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2005, at 3:59:45
In reply to One for when you're ready - re leaving kids » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on September 19, 2005, at 1:03:12
Hey. I'm sorry I haven't been able to answer this before now... I have been thinking about it... And I have been struggling with trying to figure out what to say.
> I carry an enormous sense of guilt and shame over it all. Which isn't helped when he says stuff like "I always knew you loved me". I've told him how I feel and he says it's okay cause he understands, but it doesn't change anything about how I feel or what happened in the years I wasn't there - much of which probably doesn't bear thinking about.
I'm sorry Damos.
I'm really really sorry.
And I'm really sorry that I don't know what to say.
I really can't think of what to say...Thats a different situation from mine.
You weren't the kids biological father
You didn't leave the kid in a situation where you knew the mother was emotionally and physically abusing them
I went to stay with him and my step mother briefly when I was 13.
I was seeing a school councellor.
Things weren't good between me and my mother
I told the councellor that I'd much rather live with my father but I knew that he didn't want me and I was okay with that
(well... I wasn't really... But I had to accept the truth)
And so that f*cking pratt phoned my father and told him what I had said
And managed to convince him around
Grudgingly(and i hid in my room and became as invisible as possible because i didn't want to be a bother and i just really really didn't want to get sent back to my mother)
And my step mother called me out for a meeting one day
Said that I obviously wasn't happy
And I had to go back to my motherI was there about a week...
Then I ran away
And the whole time I was in the home he never called
He never offered to buy me books for school
Clothes
Any f*cking thing at all
And when I was staying with them
My birthday was completely ignoredIt is a different situation Damos
And it is hard to talk about
Hard to think about
Because it is not just that we are coming from different sides
We are coming from different situations
He f*cking stood by and let her beat me
over and overand he didn't love me
i just thought he did because he didn't actively persecute me
i can't do this
please
Posted by muffled on October 3, 2005, at 9:53:45
In reply to Re: One for when you're ready - re leaving kids » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2005, at 3:59:45
This is the end of the thread.
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