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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:11:57
My therapist and I are having a disagreement.
He thinks there are things like my forgetting sleeps. And what I call my mind smoothing out where I forget what I was saying mid sentence (yesterday it took several attempts before I was able to get from start to finish of what I was saying before I forgot). And the stabbing headaches that I get when I try to say something I'm not supposed to say. And a few other things along those lines.
Anyway, he thinks those must be controlled by some level of consciousness, with a will. While I think they can just be automatic, or maybe unconscious, but that no separate will needs to be connected.
He wants me to consider it, but I think there's no need to go down that path. It's just a set of circuit breakers.
Is it ever beneficial to even consider something like that, if you really know it's not true? He thinks if I know it's not true, it can't hurt to consider it. But I'm afraid of iatrogenic whatever. I think I spelled that wrong.
On the other hand, I'm not very suggestible. He's thought since the beginning that there must be sexual abuse in my past, and I've been adamant that there hasn't been.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 20:29:49
In reply to But on the same topic, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:11:57
There doesn't need to be another will that is unconscious.
One will is more than enough ;-)
It is just that things come in and out of consciousness...
And you might be capable of 'pushing things out' of consciousness (including the knowledge that you have just done that) for reasons you aren't aware of because you haven't looked at it too hard.
But you can probably have a look and figure it out...I dunno. Philosophy of mind is hard. I don't much like buying into metaphors either. The trouble is that everyone is reduced to metaphor because it is so damned hard...
Posted by fallsfall on July 21, 2005, at 21:13:27
In reply to But on the same topic, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:11:57
It is possible by thinking about things to bring things from the unconscious and make them conscious. This is what psychodynamic therapy is all about. I have experienced this - for example, I now understand why I "want" to be depressed - I now understand the unconscious motivations that keep me depressed. We brought them to consciousness by talking about them - by "considering the possibility" that I might have reasons that would mean that it would be to my benefit to stay depressed. It took a while, but when I started to really consider that possibility, I could see that it was more than just a possibility.
My interpretation is that your things aren't caused by conscious thought now - but that they might be able to be controlled by your conscious if you figured out how. It has been worthwhile for me...
Good luck
Posted by littleone on July 21, 2005, at 21:22:30
In reply to But on the same topic, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:11:57
Just adding my thoughts for your consideration.
I kind of think that your forgetting sleeps, etc are a coping mechanism. And that it is something you once tried and found to be successful to a degree. So you kept re-using that coping strategy until it has become second nature to you.
And now it is *so* second nature to you that you don't even think about using it. It just happens. It *seems* automatic.
But it is still a learnt behaviour. And as such, can be unlearnt. Even though I imagine this would be done with great difficulty since it has become so ingrained and you do find it to be a successful coping mechanism.
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 22:13:20
In reply to But on the same topic, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:11:57
I guess... Maybe the suggestion reminds me a bit of those Gestalt (?) type exercises he used to suggest. Pretending. I'm not really good at pretending.
Littleone is right. Those are all convenient coping mechanisms that I may overuse a bit. But that doesn't mean they mean anything in particular, or that I'm trying to do anything in particular with them.
At first he just said I was a chicken about pain. I think that's probably more right.
(He of course didn't say chicken.)
Posted by fallsfall on July 22, 2005, at 10:21:42
In reply to Re: But on the same topic » Dinah, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 22:13:20
What I have done is NOT "fake it 'till you make it". That drives me crazy! I have done more of trying to understand what my fears and motivations are rooted in. Then I could start to change things in my life to change those roots.
Consider - don't pretend.
Posted by antigua on July 22, 2005, at 14:08:02
In reply to Re: But on the same topic » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on July 21, 2005, at 21:13:27
Hi fallsfall, I hope you're right that we can willfully bringing things into our conscious mind. One of my problems is that I let a little too much in and then I'm overwhelmed, or take a huge step back, when it doesn't feel like what I've brought in should make that much of a difference. I'm so impatient that I want it all to become conscious! But I'm also struck by the thought that I may never know everything, that I will have to live w/o having all my memories. Problem is I never no where to draw the line--to keep going or not.
thanks,
antigua
Posted by greyskyeyes on July 22, 2005, at 14:39:33
In reply to Re: But on the same topic » Dinah, posted by littleone on July 21, 2005, at 21:22:30
I agree with littleone, about learning coping mechanisms and then using them unconsciously. That's something I've been dealing with in my therapy lately. A lot of the coping mechanisms I use were learned very, very young and I was unaware that they even existed. And while they can't be "unlearned" overnight, just knowing they are there makes me more aware, even if *just sometimes*, of what I am doing when I automatically pull out those coping methods. And awareness is the first step towards change.
So I guess in that case both you and your therapist would be right. For him, in that will *initially* went into creating these coping mechanisms. For you, in that they are not *now* consciously controlled. Can you anticipate when you are going to have a "forgetting sleep" or get a headache? Knowing the pattern that brings them on might help you in eventually stopping them.
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2005, at 16:35:05
In reply to Re: But on the same topic, posted by greyskyeyes on July 22, 2005, at 14:39:33
I think he understood what I was trying to say. He was comparing them to those Star Trek worlds where they discover that there was a computer long set up to keep the world safe, and to protect itself in order to do that, by people long since gone. And with methods that may not be in the best interests of the population, and that everyone has forgotten is a computer.
I'm not sure I want to lose all of them. The forgetting sleeps are disruptive, but less disruptive than the behaviors they replaced.
I have learned to stay present in therapy better by overriding the spacing out mechanisms. It sometimes takes a while, but I usually manage to maintain present and even complete my thought.
Posted by fallsfall on July 22, 2005, at 18:09:45
In reply to Re: But on the same topic » fallsfall, posted by antigua on July 22, 2005, at 14:08:02
Hi Antigua,
We may be talking about slightly different things. I interpret that you are talking about bringing memories of the past back into consciousness. I am talking about bringing understanding about reasons for current behavior into consciousness. I don't know if the mechanisms are the same or different.
My therapist basically asks "If you accept that there is some reason (which you currently don't know) for your behavior, then can you guess about what that reason might be?" My guesses don't have to be correct, or even reasonable. But eventually, after guessing enough, I come up with something that sort of feels right.
I don't know how the memory stuff works.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 22, 2005, at 23:26:20
In reply to Re: But on the same topic » antigua, posted by fallsfall on July 22, 2005, at 18:09:45
> We may be talking about slightly different things. I interpret that you are talking about bringing memories of the past back into consciousness. I am talking about bringing understanding about reasons for current behavior into consciousness. I don't know if the mechanisms are the same or different.
I'm not sure whether they count as distinct mechanisms or not... But I think they are both similar in the sense that they are both essentially creative / constructive processes. Thats not to say that there aren't reality constraints in there, but it is to say that if it 'feels right' in that calm kind of way - then thats probably about as good as it gets. Unless we hit apon something else later that feels even more right, of course ;-)
This is the end of the thread.
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