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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 10:47:17
In therapy we were talking about how ever since my best friend from elementary school very gently told me in middle school that I wanted too much of her time, I've been so afraid of being a devouring needy person like my mother that I've never again been really authentic with anyone. And that I was afraid of being even slightly authentic with people I care about because I was afraid I would devour them.
He asked if I was afraid I would devour him. I said yes. He said that would never happen because he was taking care of his end of the relationship. We talked a bit about boundaries in therapy and how I really appreciated them because they left me feeling freer to be my authentic self without hurting him.
But I told him that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that if he weren't protecting himself, I'd devour him. I told him that he knew the real me, and asked if that were true. He said that if it weren't for the boundaries (which he preferred to protection) leakage would probably occur and it was possible (or probably, can't recall) that the relationship would "disintigrate".
So I told him that was what I meant. That I couldn't be authentic with anyone I cared about. He said that I could learn to do it, and when I asked how he had a couple of recommendations. One was that I find appropriate and safe places to get my needs met. I told him that that brought us back to it being safe with him, because he protected himself from me, and that it wasn't safe to be authentic anywhere else. I needed to protect people from me.
I think that what he said was exactly what I was saying. And that's ok. I'm not hurt or anything, because I knew it already. But I'm just wondering if I'm interpreting correctly. Is there another way to see that?
If I ask him, he'll just say that of course he didn't mean that. But I think he already *said* it.
Posted by Jazzed on May 25, 2005, at 11:05:33
In reply to Is there any other way to interpret this?, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 10:47:17
So, is your question whether he was saying in a real relationship he wouldn't like you because you'd be too overwhelming, or where else you can find safe places to be yourself? I guess I missed the real question.
Jazz
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 11:20:07
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » Dinah, posted by Jazzed on May 25, 2005, at 11:05:33
My point, to which I think he agreed, was that in a non-therapy relationship I would be too overwhelming.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 25, 2005, at 11:41:59
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » Jazzed, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 11:20:07
Dinah,
He also said that he takes care of his end, and that you two have boundaries, which makes therapy a safe place. Unfortunately, the real world doesn't have tons of folks who are adequately taking care of their end in relationships and who have firm, clear, and consistent boundaries.So I'm not sure if he's commenting as much about protecting others from you, but rather it might be that you need to be protected from others who might be too needy or too loose with boundaries, themselves. Maybe??? That the safe place to be your true self might not occur IRL in all that many places. If you could find them, and we all would like more of them, then I think he's saying that would be a good thing.
Aargh. I'm not sure what I'm saying now. But I just think his comment has as much to do with the real world versus the neediness you were discussing.
gg
Posted by pinkeye on May 25, 2005, at 12:40:40
In reply to Is there any other way to interpret this?, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 10:47:17
Maybe the right way to see that is that in reality, all of us end up protecting ourselves from others all the time. It is just not you and it is just not your T and it is just not me either.
It happens with everyone - consciously or unconsciously.
Your therapist is good at protecting himself IN A GOOD WAY. What you want to find is people who are like that - who will take care of themselves and who will lend you as much as they can without causing you harm or causing them harm.
And I am sure you protect yourself as well - if I write everyday to you a 100 mails, I am sure you will get fed up of me. It is only the limits that people are different.
Posted by happyflower on May 25, 2005, at 12:53:07
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 25, 2005, at 12:40:40
I don't have much more to add but I don't know what is going on this week in theapy with everyone, but seems like there is full moon this week. What is going on with the T? Thinking about the 3 day weekend or something?
Posted by Jazzed on May 25, 2005, at 13:18:40
In reply to Is there any other way to interpret this?, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 10:47:17
It seems to me that your T is much more concerned with you feeling safe being authentic, and not about your fear of "devouring" others. I think you are right, we all develop our own "protections". In therapy he is very adequately protected and has all the resources he needs, and you are free to be yourself. He obviously cares and is concerned that you feel good about being yourself with him or anyone, and he wants to help you develop those skills.
Jazz
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 13:56:04
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » Dinah, posted by Jazzed on May 25, 2005, at 13:18:40
The context was definitely protecting other people from me though. There was no talk of me feeling safe or being safe.
I figured that there were a range of ways to interpret him as agreeing with me. From, on the mild side, "Yes, you do tend to be a bit intense when you allow yourself to be authentic, and people do tend to feel overwhelmed. It'd help if you learned to moderate that." to "No one could stand you in doses of longer than an hour at a time, well compensated, and with years of training and experience. Without all that you'll swallow a person whole."
But I concede that I'm not objective, so I'll consider that he meant something else, and just worded it poorly.
I don't think I'll ask him though. I mean, even if it's true, he couldn't tell me "No one could stand you in doses of longer than an hour at a time, well compensated, and with years of training and experience. Without all that you'll swallow a person whole." outright. He'd have to hide it in therapy language.
Posted by Jazzed on May 25, 2005, at 16:32:17
In reply to Ok, I'll believe there is., posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 13:56:04
> The context was definitely protecting other people from me though. There was no talk of me feeling safe or being safe.
I don't understand why he'd be concerned with other ppl during your therapy session though. Unless it's an effort to help you interact more effectively.
>
>> But I concede that I'm not objective, so I'll consider that he meant something else, and just worded it poorly.LOL, are we ever objective when our feelings are potentially being hurt? Not me! I remember the p-doc telling me that, because I talk so fast and jump from subject to subject, ppl would back off from me. He showed me in actions, not word though. I know it's true, I get overly excited.
> I don't think I'll ask him though. I mean, even if it's true, he couldn't tell me "No one could stand you in doses of longer than an hour at a time, well compensated, and with years of training and experience. Without all that you'll swallow a person whole." outright. He'd have to hide it in therapy language.No, I agree, I'd leave well enough alone, and put it in perspective. It's really such a tiny transaction among all the transactions you've had with him over the years. Play it in reverse, and change the parts you don't want to hear.
Jazz
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 17:19:08
In reply to Re: Ok, I'll believe there is. » Dinah, posted by Jazzed on May 25, 2005, at 16:32:17
I don't think he hurt my feelings at all. I was just a bit confused because he seemed to be exactly the same thing I was, while simultaneously telling me differently.
Sort of like.
No, no, the sun is not bright. The sun is *bright*. I was just a bit confused about whether his words could logically be put together to mean something else, since he said that I wasn't correct, but then appeared to conclude the same thing I said to begin with.
Oh, I'm not explaining this well.
But he didn't hurt my feelings.
Posted by JenStar on May 25, 2005, at 18:36:21
In reply to Is there any other way to interpret this?, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 10:47:17
hi Dinah,
don't you think any relationship would disintegrate without appropriate boundaries and guidelines, no matter what kind it is?It seems to me that you're extra careful not to "burden" people with yourself because of your OWN boundaries, which you have set up maybe unfairly to yourself. First, there is NO reason to believe you'd be a "devourer" like your mother! You seem extremely different from the way you describe her. You're logical, patient, analytical, and thoughtful. And I know that things kids say can be extremely painful and can stick in our psyches -- to me it seems that when we're little, our feelings are like wet tar, and any wound or injury makes a permanent mark there. But it doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem with YOU -- it could be that you were sharing in a perfectly normal & wonderful way, and the other girl was just not capable of friendship, or had home issues, or was just really really busy. It doesn't mean that there is a chronic problem with you.
But I think EVERYONE sets up boundaries with people, even if they don't talk about it like that. When I'm on the phone with a friend, eventually one of us will wrap it up and say, "Well...I've got to get going now," which is a boundary. It's not saying "you're devouring me" but rather "I need to do other things too, even though I like talking with you." And with friends I fall into a rhythm of how often we see each other -- for some friends it is about 1x/week, for others 1x/month. It just goes to what "feels" right. And I think I can still be authentic with each one to varying degrees since we have varying comfort levels.
Do you think that a relationship has to be full bore, full throttle, 100% energy, or else totally fake? I think it's possible to be authentic and fun in 'small chunks' -- I think my good friends know the "real me" who likes to joke and be sarcastic but is also sweet at times, too. And I am sometimes careful not to overwhelm them with the "waterfall of me" because I CAN be huge and expansive -- I like to talk and do tons of things and read and writea huge amount, and I do it all fast and well, and sometimes that can be "too much" for other people. But I don't let that stop me -- I just give them less "me" for their money (so to speak.) But I think the part they see is still relatively authentic.
I don't think it's any insult or anything abnormal for the T to agree that your relationship would disintegrate without boundaries. ANY t/client relationship would be a mess without boundaries. And even husbands/wives have boundaries.
OK, here's what I really wanted to ask, after my huge novel (it just came to me!) What would it mean to you to be FULLY authentic with a friend or other person? What kinds of things would you do, share, talk about? How much time would you spend hanging out, chatting, etc? What would be different about this than your current relationships? Would you be more honest about your dreams, fears? Would you joke more, be more unpolitically correct? Would you f*rt in their presence? (I'm serious about these questions!)
I'm going to think about that for me, too. Because even though I think I"m pretty authentic, I'm sure I do hold back parts of me too. I"m not always 100% comfortable even around friends.
It's an interesting question you posed. It gets me thinking about me & my relationships too.
JenStar
Posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 19:14:25
In reply to Is there any other way to interpret this?, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 10:47:17
> In therapy we were talking about how ever since my best friend from elementary school very gently told me in middle school that I wanted too much of her time, I've been so afraid of being a devouring needy person like my mother that I've never again been really authentic with anyone. And that I was afraid of being even slightly authentic with people I care about because I was afraid I would devour them.
Is it possible that her comment reflected something about her, rather than something about you? I’ve felt at times that I didn’t have as much time for my friends as they wanted… usually when I was feeling under pressure or stress (or depressed). It’s nothing to do with them; it’s all about my state of mind.
> He asked if I was afraid I would devour him. I said yes. He said that would never happen because he was taking care of his end of the relationship. We talked a bit about boundaries in therapy and how I really appreciated them because they left me feeling freer to be my authentic self without hurting him.
>
> But I told him that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that if he weren't protecting himself, I'd devour him. I told him that he knew the real me, and asked if that were true. He said that if it weren't for the boundaries (which he preferred to protection) leakage would probably occur and it was possible (or probably, can't recall) that the relationship would "disintigrate".Surely that would be true of many of his clients; not just you. It’s probably because it’s a professional relationship rather than a personal one. How would you react to *his* ‘leakage’ if you didn’t have boundaries? Therapy without boundaries would be very, very tough for both of you.
> So I told him that was what I meant. That I couldn't be authentic with anyone I cared about. He said that I could learn to do it, and when I asked how he had a couple of recommendations. One was that I find appropriate and safe places to get my needs met. I told him that that brought us back to it being safe with him, because he protected himself from me, and that it wasn't safe to be authentic anywhere else. I needed to protect people from me.
>
> I think that what he said was exactly what I was saying. And that's ok. I'm not hurt or anything, because I knew it already. But I'm just wondering if I'm interpreting correctly. Is there another way to see that?
>
> If I ask him, he'll just say that of course he didn't mean that. But I think he already *said* it.I think he might have meant it the way you interpreted it, but possibly not for the reasons you might attribute to him. I suspect he finds it difficult to imagine doing therapy without boundaries. In a way, it’s not a fair test. He doesn’t know what it might be like to be friends with you.
I’ve been on both sides of this. I’ve had friends who wanted more of my time than I felt I was able to give, even when I wasn’t stressed or depressed. I didn’t love them any less. I didn’t feel devoured. I simply gave them whatever I could. I’ve also been the one who wants more, and I was lucky to have friends who loved me enough to give me whatever they could. In some friendships, we’ve switched positions several times. In fact, with one of my close friends we’ve gone back and forth like a tennis ball. At the moment it’s my turn to need her, and her turn to be short of time. But we have a lot of fun when we do get together, and that makes it worth waiting for her.
Real friends would be glad to see the real you. They might not always be able to give you what you want, but you might also find you can’t give your friends everything they want.
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 19:48:47
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » Dinah, posted by JenStar on May 25, 2005, at 18:36:21
What excellent questions! They are perfectly designed to shake me out of very old extreme positions of thought. I wish my therapist would think of questions like that. :) No wonder I usually walk in with a sheaf of posts. Babble is like a consultant for my therapist.
> hi Dinah,
> don't you think any relationship would disintegrate without appropriate boundaries and guidelines, no matter what kind it is?Absolutely. I've long said that the boundaries of therapy are not unique. Just more well defined than the boundaries of the other relationships in our life. It's just the context that made it an answer to my question.
Of course, I need to take into account my therapist's half of the relationship. He told me long ago that he had a problem with dependent women. And I definitely have been dependent to greater or lesser degrees over the years. So the boundaries concievably keep his stuff in as well as my stuff out.
>
> It seems to me that you're extra careful not to "burden" people with yourself because of your OWN boundaries, which you have set up maybe unfairly to yourself. First, there is NO reason to believe you'd be a "devourer" like your mother! You seem extremely different from the way you describe her. You're logical, patient, analytical, and thoughtful.Well, I can *appear* to be that way. :)
> And I know that things kids say can be extremely painful and can stick in our psyches -- to me it seems that when we're little, our feelings are like wet tar, and any wound or injury makes a permanent mark there.
Well, she was actually as gentle as can be. Not for nothing did she seek a career in the diplomatic community. But you're right. Things don't have much perspective when we're young.
And she was right. We had been best friends in elementary school, and I expected that to continue in the same intensity it had been in the past. But there were more people with similar interests in middle school.> But I think EVERYONE sets up boundaries with people, even if they don't talk about it like that. When I'm on the phone with a friend, eventually one of us will wrap it up and say, "Well...I've got to get going now," which is a boundary. It's not saying "you're devouring me" but rather "I need to do other things too, even though I like talking with you." And with friends I fall into a rhythm of how often we see each other -- for some friends it is about 1x/week, for others 1x/month. It just goes to what "feels" right. And I think I can still be authentic with each one to varying degrees since we have varying comfort levels.
>
Yes, that's definitely true of me with others. So it would logically be true of others with me.
> Do you think that a relationship has to be full bore, full throttle, 100% energy, or else totally fake? I think it's possible to be authentic and fun in 'small chunks' -- I think my good friends know the "real me" who likes to joke and be sarcastic but is also sweet at times, too. And I am sometimes careful not to overwhelm them with the "waterfall of me" because I CAN be huge and expansive -- I like to talk and do tons of things and read and writea huge amount, and I do it all fast and well, and sometimes that can be "too much" for other people. But I don't let that stop me -- I just give them less "me" for their money (so to speak.) But I think the part they see is still relatively authentic.I think I'm generally not. Online is the first place I've been reasonably authentic. And even then, "Dinah" is usually a carefully selected side of me. Not all good by any means. I'm not saying that. "Dinah" has her flaws. But I only rarely (I hope) let the pathetic needy underbelly of the person behind "Dinah" show.
IRL, I haven't been even halfway authentic since high school. And high school was only halfway authenticity. Of course, halfway authenticity in high school is probably perfectly normal. :)
> OK, here's what I really wanted to ask, after my huge novel (it just came to me!) What would it mean to you to be FULLY authentic with a friend or other person?
Well, let's see. I guess there are two categories here. The talk started about authenticity with my son. I don't actually think parents should be all that authentic with their children. But I might overdo it. To me, with my son, it would mean reacting without tons of thought. I see mothers interacting that way with their children. With joy and spontaneity. I feel a stirring of longing. While it feels like I pause between each microinteraction to evaluate what the proper response would be. That probably doesn't leave him much room to be authentic with me either. I have no guide to how to change that in a healthy way.
> What kinds of things would you do, share, talk about? How much time would you spend hanging out, chatting, etc? What would be different about this than your current relationships? Would you be more honest about your dreams, fears? Would you joke more, be more unpolitically correct? Would you f*rt in their presence? (I'm serious about these questions!)
>
I have an online friend that I'm probably completely authentic with. I don't think I'd change a thing. I try to be sensitive to when she wants to leave, but that's only polite.With my husband, I think it would mean, again, more spontaneity. And more honesty about feelings. But that's as much him as me.
With anyone else, I'm about as authentic as a mannequin. If I feel sorry for someone, I reach out to them, but pretend it's not because I feel sorry for them. If I admire someone, I am positive that they have so many better things to do that even for me to say hello would be a huge intrusion into their time. So I act as if I totally dislike them. lol. Not on purpose. I'm just stiff and uncomfortable with them. Old friends I call every once in a while. We arrange a stiff family gettogether where everyone is on their best behavior. Then I assume it's up to them to contact me next, so I forget about them for a few years, then call them again.
So that leaves no one except my husband and my therapist who is even around for me to share, hang out with, chat with, talk about dreams and fears, joke with, be politically correct with, or f*rt in front of.
And that leaves only my therapist with whom I am totally authentic.
God, I'm pathetic.
And I can't even work on my social phobia until I work on my fear of foisting myself on others. Which includes the fear that I'll want too much of them. Which is often wanting anything at all from them.
Unless I'm paying $110 per hour.
I think I might be depressed now.
Posted by JenStar on May 25, 2005, at 20:46:20
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » JenStar, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 19:48:47
Well, I think you're interesting, not pathetic! You seriously seem like a very interesting person who would make a cool friend IRL. I wonder how many potentially cool friends I've passed by b/c of the fronts and stiltedness you spoke of below? Because I do that too, actually -- put up different fronts at different times. I've probably let lots of good people go right on by b/c of that.
It just seems that you're unique and interesting. It would be worthwhile, I think, for you to try and be more of yourself around people. I bet they'd like it! :) (And if not, then they're dorks who don't deserve your company anyway, or at least that's how I put it to myself when my advances are rebuffed!)
I think I was almost completely authentic with nobody in high school, due to insecurities and cliques and worries about boys/etc. I always tried to be cooler and look cooler than I was sure I was (or wasn't!) I regret not stepping up to myself and saying, "d**n it, JenStar, you're a wonderful charming bright complex person, so stop pretending to be something you're not, and just be YOU!" And in college I think I was authentically ME to a very small handful of good friends, and now I'm authentic with a handful of good friends. It feels so good to be authentic. I CAN be silly and needy and smart and stupid and immature and mature in turns, without needing to be one of them all the time, b/c my friends love me and think the best of me even when I'm being petulant or goofy. I love that part of it. But it's so hard to START being that way with someone! And as I get older, it's harder to find new people with whom I can be completely authentic. I have a lot of the "surface" relationships where we act like you said, mannequin-ish. Sometimes I wonder why we even bother "lunching" if we're going to be so surface with each other. Sometimes I wonder if the other peoople are also dying to be more real but are just afraid, too?
Hmmmm...I'm really sorry if my post depressed you. I really didn't mean to do that!
And I hope I can say this authentically, without being afriad of being a "suck up" or too needy or too weird or something, but I do think you are really cool. :)
Have a good evening!
JenStar
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 25, 2005, at 21:32:42
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » JenStar, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 19:48:47
Some people, even when they've been in therapy a long time, don't get in touch with how much they really need from other people. There are all those intense longings, deep in our minds, there because they were not met when we were young, I think that coming to know that is wonderful. Taking that next step- exploring how intense your needs really are- that in fact they are driving you to be inauthentic and formal when you'd really like to be natural, and causing you terrible fears of being too much for other people- that's just a great step. The only way out of this situation- which is all of ours, too,- is to gather all the courage you have (you have a lot), and let it come into the therapy fully. You are not dealing with the same person who said, quite a long time ago, that he didn't like dependent women. He can really see things for what they are now; if not, these feelings of yours wouldn't be coming to the surface- it takes two to make good things happen, don't you think?
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 5:39:12
In reply to Re: feeling that you need too much..., posted by Pfinstegg on May 25, 2005, at 21:32:42
Thank you, Pfinstegg. I think you're quite right.
And it does indeed take courage. :)
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 9:14:40
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » Dinah, posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 19:14:25
> I’ve been on both sides of this. I’ve had friends who wanted more of my time than I felt I was able to give, even when I wasn’t stressed or depressed. I didn’t love them any less. I didn’t feel devoured. I simply gave them whatever I could. I’ve also been the one who wants more, and I was lucky to have friends who loved me enough to give me whatever they could. In some friendships, we’ve switched positions several times. In fact, with one of my close friends we’ve gone back and forth like a tennis ball. At the moment it’s my turn to need her, and her turn to be short of time. But we have a lot of fun when we do get together, and that makes it worth waiting for her.
>
> Real friends would be glad to see the real you. They might not always be able to give you what you want, but you might also find you can’t give your friends everything they want.
>
>That is a wonderful mature attitude! I don't tend to think in those terms, but I'll try to start. Yes. That definitely sounds like a good reframing of my more extreme thoughts. :)
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 9:18:06
In reply to Re: Is there any other way to interpret this? » Dinah, posted by JenStar on May 25, 2005, at 20:46:20
Thanks, Jenstar. :)
I'll bet a lot more of us than we'd think long for more authentic relationships. Hence the immense popularity of TV shows that appear to show them. We stay home in our safe cocoons and experience it vicariously.
I think rather fondly of that inauthenticity in high school. Like that time of life might be for trying on different ways of being and seeing what suited us. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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