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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pinkeye on May 15, 2005, at 13:13:31
So, since most of us grow up pretty messed up, and have to look back and go through this very painful process of recorrecting ourselves, I thought it might be a great idea to teach kids some form of CBT from childhood?
Parents often seem to mess up with bringing their kids.. and I don't want to blame them, because they simply don't know how to.
So why not atleast teach the kids - from a very young age - a form of therapy techniques.. like how to manage your anger, emotions, what is fear, how to overcome it, how to develop good self esteem etc? It is so crucial for the kids right? We teach them maths, science, history, biology etc, but isn't it very necessary to teach them about their emotions?
After all, to make them a good human is more important than to make them just good in maths or science or anything. And it will help them immensely in their survival.
Any thoughts?
Posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 14:56:39
In reply to Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school, posted by pinkeye on May 15, 2005, at 13:13:31
Oh please god no!!!
Not CBT.
That made me worse :-(But:
Learning about thoughts feelings and behaviours would probably be useful. Trouble is that there are different theories out there...I had to wait to do 'philosophy of mind' at university to learn about this stuff.
I think that might be more what people need...
Um.
I think we do do the stuff you are thinking of a little bit in health. When we are 11 or 12.
Posted by Tamar on May 15, 2005, at 15:09:18
In reply to Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school, posted by pinkeye on May 15, 2005, at 13:13:31
Interesting idea! I think there are all sorts of things that should be taught in school, like civics and parenting and philosophy. Perhaps something like CBT or psychological thinking might be a good idea. Though I suppose, unfortunately, it all comes down to resources.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 15:22:22
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on May 15, 2005, at 15:09:18
Our university runs a course: Ethics, Religion, and Contemporary Society. Though I think we have turned it into Social and Moral Philosophy now.
It was open to 7th formers who already qualified for enterance to university based on their 6th form grades. My office mate got contracted to lecture / run it this year. So he goes round the schools seeing the students there.
It is quite popular.
Helps peoples med school / engineering / law applications.
The religious schools quite like it - even though the students are taught to think CRITICALLY and MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND based on GOOD REASONS as to what they believe the should do with respect to certain issues.Smacking children
Sex before marriage
Abortion
etc
etc.But....
All that is a bit politically loaded in the US...
Condoms being porous and all ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 15:27:55
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 15:22:22
Sorry.
That latter bit cracks me up!!!But whats on the curriculum does seem to be a political issue in the US.
The idea being that values are taught or instilled.
The way we approach it is that people need to make their own decisions. To be best placed to do that they need the relevant facts and some sort of understanding of the consequences of decisions either way.
They need to learn to be able to think critically in the face of so many people making so many claims about what they should and shouldn't do and what they should and shouldn't believe.
But.
Some groups don't like this...
Posted by Tamar on May 15, 2005, at 15:40:23
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 15:22:22
> Our university runs a course: Ethics, Religion, and Contemporary Society. Though I think we have turned it into Social and Moral Philosophy now.
>
> It was open to 7th formers who already qualified for enterance to university based on their 6th form grades. My office mate got contracted to lecture / run it this year. So he goes round the schools seeing the students there.
>
> It is quite popular.
> Helps peoples med school / engineering / law applications.
> The religious schools quite like it - even though the students are taught to think CRITICALLY and MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND based on GOOD REASONS as to what they believe the should do with respect to certain issues.
>
> Smacking children
> Sex before marriage
> Abortion
> etc
> etc.This sounds really good. I don't think there's anything like that near me.
> All that is a bit politically loaded in the US...Well, everywhere really... I can't think of many places where abortion and corporal punishment aren't politically loaded. Although I suspect Sweden has it all figured out.
> Condoms being porous and all ;-)
Hah! I know all about that! Having planned two children, we recently welcomed number three into the family. From now on it'll be double thickness contraception...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 17:28:09
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on May 15, 2005, at 15:40:23
> This sounds really good. I don't think there's anything like that near me.
Probably only at university.
> > All that is a bit politically loaded in the US...
> Well, everywhere really... I can't think of many places where abortion and corporal punishment aren't politically loaded.Oh. I mean informing kids of relevant facts. Some people think that you shouldn't tell kids about sex because then they will go out and do it. That teaching them what it is etc is seen to condone it. To make contraception available to them is seen to condone it. To say that they need to make up their own mind is frowned upon by people who think there is only one right answer. So often the teaching isn't focused on information (and the critical assessment of that information) it is focused on attempting to instill morals (e.g., Don't have sex before marriage.)
>Although I suspect Sweden has it all figured out.
Not ALL of it, I suspect.
But I think they do pretty well.
Yeah.
> > Condoms being porous and all ;-)
> Hah! I know all about that! Having planned two children, we recently welcomed number three into the family. From now on it'll be double thickness contraception...Ah.
They can break.
But thats not about them being porous.
Thats about them breaking.
You are also supposed to use spermicide with them.
(Lots of people don't know that).
It also pays not to be tooo vigourous.
You should know if something has gone wrong.
That gives you time to get the morning after pill.
Or to be on the pill or depo or have a diaphram as an emergency back up incase of breakage.I was thinking...
I was thinking...About the church in a certain state who teaches that all synthetic material is porous. Condoms are made from synthetic material. Therefore condoms are porous. Therefore the sperm just goes right on through the material and people get STD's and get pregnant. Therefore it is pointless to use condoms and one should be abstinent before marriage otherwise one is like a used toothbrush. And nobody wants to use another persons toothbrush because you don't know where it has been.
(The point is that just because something is porous doesn't mean that EVERYTHING can get through it. A balloon is porous but it holds water.
So....
The kids aren't properly informed about how STD's are transmitted.
They don't realise that oral sex and sodomy counts as a sexual act with respect to STD's at the very least.
And they don't think that condoms are of any use anyway.Pretty high STD rates over there.....
Posted by Tamar on May 15, 2005, at 18:19:44
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 17:28:09
> Oh. I mean informing kids of relevant facts. Some people think that you shouldn't tell kids about sex because then they will go out and do it. That teaching them what it is etc is seen to condone it. To make contraception available to them is seen to condone it. To say that they need to make up their own mind is frowned upon by people who think there is only one right answer. So often the teaching isn't focused on information (and the critical assessment of that information) it is focused on attempting to instill morals (e.g., Don't have sex before marriage.)
Ah yes, I see what you mean now. I must admit, I worry a little about what my own kids will be taught about sex at school. I'm amazed, for example, at how quickly heteronormativity becomes an issue. When my eldest was four she already thought that it wasn't possible for a man to have a boyfriend - until I pointed out to her that she actually knew men with boyfriends... Sigh.
> > > Condoms being porous and all ;-)
>
> > Hah! I know all about that! Having planned two children, we recently welcomed number three into the family. From now on it'll be double thickness contraception...
>
> Ah.
> They can break.
> But thats not about them being porous.
> Thats about them breaking.
> You are also supposed to use spermicide with them.
> (Lots of people don't know that).
> It also pays not to be tooo vigourous.
> You should know if something has gone wrong.
> That gives you time to get the morning after pill.
> Or to be on the pill or depo or have a diaphram as an emergency back up incase of breakage.That's all very well if they break. But mine didn't break. They're just not 100% effective, even if used with spermicide. Nothing is 100% effective, I guess.
> I was thinking...
> I was thinking...
>
> About the church in a certain state who teaches that all synthetic material is porous. Condoms are made from synthetic material. Therefore condoms are porous. Therefore the sperm just goes right on through the material and people get STD's and get pregnant. Therefore it is pointless to use condoms and one should be abstinent before marriage otherwise one is like a used toothbrush. And nobody wants to use another persons toothbrush because you don't know where it has been.Well, that's bad science and faulty logic. It's true that contraception isn't 100% effective, but that doesn't mean it's pointless. My own theory about sex education is based in something like realpolitik. More acceptance of pleasure and less instilling of fear would be a good start.
> The kids aren't properly informed about how STD's are transmitted.
> They don't realise that oral sex and sodomy counts as a sexual act with respect to STD's at the very least.
> And they don't think that condoms are of any use anyway.
>
> Pretty high STD rates over there.....I think of this from a parental perspective nowadays, and I find increasing STD rates quite disturbing. It's bizarre to me that people think kids won't have sex if they aren't taught about it. I just don't see the logic. Don't they remember what it felt like to be fifteen?
I guess I can understand that people want their children to accept their sexual morals. But that's probably best done by setting an example rather than withholding information.
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2005, at 9:19:50
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 17:28:09
Chuckle.
My husband and I always worry about where something's been. Well, not with each other. But I always consider it a rather good thing. Even if his much prized ethics should fail him and he should be tempted to break the vows he's made, I know he won't. OCD has its upside.
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2005, at 9:26:24
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on May 15, 2005, at 18:19:44
Our moral instruction of our son is more pragmatic than moral.
Just as we tell him that with responsibility comes power, and vice versa, we also tell him that doing things that can result in babies (with or without condoms) should come with the ability to take care of said baby. Because if he and a girl gets pregnant, the only power he has is to block an adoption. If she decides to have an abortion, he can't stop her. If she decides to keep the baby, his life as he planned it may well be over, since he'll be responsible for child support. Which he will morally and ethically owe the child. When he's willing to take on those responsibilities, he's ready for sex. It's his choice and his responsibility.
So far we've just said those things on a very child friendly basis. After we teach him a bit more how babies are made, we can and will be a lot more explicit.
If he chooses to put his future on the line, there's nothing we can do to stop him. But we want him to know that sex is more than fun.
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 9:15:45
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » Tamar, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2005, at 9:26:24
our school systems DO actually teach some CBT-like "assemblies". By either going classroom to classroom teaching the students how to deal with their emotions, et cetera, or gathering, "assembling", as an entire school to do these types of things... dealing with bullies of all types, learning to constructively relieve stress...
HOWEVER, as parents are not invited to these assemblies, I have no idea what they are saying, or how well they teach these things...
Posted by Jazzed on May 17, 2005, at 21:02:12
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 14:56:39
> Oh please god no!!!
> Not CBT.
> That made me worse :-(
>I'm curious, what about CBT made you worse? I'm concerned because I just made an appt for my daughter to get some CBT. What exactly do you do in CBT? Was it CBT itself that made you worse, or the particular therapist?
thanks,
Jazzed
Posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 23:31:53
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » alexandra_k, posted by Jazzed on May 17, 2005, at 21:02:12
Mostly the particular therapists I suppose.
CBT can be very effective for problem solving.
It is worth a try first off.
I guess I'd just try and remember that if that doesn't seem to be the thing... Well... It is not suited to everyone. And there are other options.But it helps a lot of people.
Sorry.
Didn't mean to worry you...
I should be more careful with what I say.
It does help a lot of people.
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 8:15:00
In reply to Re: Would it help to teach some CBT for kids in school » Jazzed, posted by alexandra_k on May 17, 2005, at 23:31:53
that's what CBT doesn't do...
But, as Alex said, it does work for some people...
Posted by Jazzed on May 18, 2005, at 11:57:58
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 8:15:00
> that's what CBT doesn't do...
>
> But, as Alex said, it does work for some people...Oh, okay, you mean it doesn't look at what created the problem in the first place, but just looks to create new ways of coping? I didn't know, but assumed that was what it was since it's a short term therapy.
I think that will work for my daughter since what she needs is concrete ways of dealing with her anxiety. For me, what I need is more in depth because of my past issues.
What kills me is that now the managed care system is going to scripted therapies, and only a certain # of sessions to "cure" a particular disorder. Yikes that's scary.
Jazzed
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 16:04:34
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed » sunny10, posted by Jazzed on May 18, 2005, at 11:57:58
yes, I know what you mean about the "script" thing... I've know it to be true for years, but still can't quite "believe it", if you know what I mean...
For the industry to come so far, yet allow themselves to be dictated to by the insurance companies... if only the insurance companies did a little more research on how depression affects your physical health, too. Then they would realize they'd end up spending LESS in the long run by allowing in depth therapy.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2005, at 16:44:37
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed » sunny10, posted by Jazzed on May 18, 2005, at 11:57:58
> concrete ways of dealing with her anxiety.
Then CBT is a very good first choice.
I have had t's say to me 'but I have taken you through all the CBT based stuff on anxiety <whine>'.So there are things to learn there.
Strategies so lessen it and be able to deal with it better.
And strategies for minimising it in the sense of eating properly and sleeping properly etc etc.I would probably send my kid off to a CBT therapist first pop for anxiety / depression.
But then...
If they wanted to go a bit deeper...
It might be time for another approach.
SOme people just want 6-12 wks of CBT or whatever.
After taht they are more than happy to leave therapy behind.
Posted by pinkeye on May 18, 2005, at 18:59:29
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed, posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2005, at 16:44:37
CBT has its own advantages - because not too often, people can afford the kind of intensive regressive therapy.
I would say CBT is like ready made clothes - it fits lot of people, but it doesn't make you look your best.
And the kind of indepth therapy is like buying a designer dress. If you want designer dresses, then you have to pay for it, and make it specially for you - that is for people who can afford it and who is willing to compromise other stuff. The other stuff takes years - in my case it has taken me 3 years of intense soul searching and constant work to understand certain things that I understood now.
Fortunately I had Ts who were willing to give that to me - even though both of them are CBT. They allowed catharsis.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 0:09:21
In reply to It takes long time to understand fully and cure » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on May 18, 2005, at 18:59:29
> And the kind of indepth therapy is like buying a designer dress. If you want designer dresses, then you have to pay for it, and make it specially for you - that is for people who can afford it and who is willing to compromise other stuff. The other stuff takes years - in my case it has taken me 3 years of intense soul searching and constant work to understand certain things that I understood now.Hmm. Sometimes I think it is like paying some creative designer to design and make you a dress.
They loan you some clothes so you can make do to start with...
There is a lot of brain-storming...
And the danger is that sometimes the dress never gets made...
Posted by Jazzed on May 19, 2005, at 8:11:56
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 16:04:34
<<For the industry to come so far, yet allow themselves to be dictated to by the insurance companies... if only the insurance companies did a little more research on how depression affects your physical health, too. Then they would realize they'd end up spending LESS in the long run by allowing in depth therapy.....>>>
That was my thought too Sunny, I can't believe they've come so far, and now to have to go to this level. I wonder what it will be like when our kids are adults, and might need therapy. Guess we better get it while we can!
Jazzed
Posted by Jazzed on May 19, 2005, at 8:14:59
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed, posted by alexandra_k on May 18, 2005, at 16:44:37
> I would probably send my kid off to a CBT therapist first pop for anxiety / depression.
>
> But then...
>
> If they wanted to go a bit deeper...
>
> It might be time for another approach.
> SOme people just want 6-12 wks of CBT or whatever.
Yeah, this is what she and I were looking for in therapy, just over the summer. She starts high school in the fall, and will have a really tough load - all honors classes, so she needs coping mechanisms! She has a great group of friends, but also needs to learn not to let them walk on her. I think the CBT will be good IF the therapist is good. I sure hope she is. We'll give her a few sessions and see. If not, we'll move on.Jazzed
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:07:00
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed » alexandra_k, posted by Jazzed on May 19, 2005, at 8:14:59
The way that healthcare is moving right now, there is no room for people. Only diseases.
That's why I'd prefer to get my son's underlyng issues out of the way while he's young so that he doesn't bring this baggage into HIS children's lives. I was part of the chain that made him suffer with low self-esteem... I need to be the one to send him to therapy in order to break that chain.
Posted by Jazzed on May 19, 2005, at 12:07:31
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed, posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:07:00
> The way that healthcare is moving right now, there is no room for people. Only diseases.
>
> That's why I'd prefer to get my son's underlyng issues out of the way while he's young so that he doesn't bring this baggage into HIS children's lives. I was part of the chain that made him suffer with low self-esteem... I need to be the one to send him to therapy in order to break that chain.I agree with you 100%. We need to get them any help they need so they can grow into healthy independent adults.
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 14:48:59
In reply to Re: getting to underlying issues, Jazzed » sunny10, posted by Jazzed on May 19, 2005, at 12:07:31
This is the end of the thread.
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