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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on January 24, 2005, at 22:59:59
We had a conversation today about responsibility. I had a VERY tough weekend...too many memories and easily triggered. I usually touch base with my therapist on Friday afternoons and we plan for the weekend -- especially if he is going to be away or whatever. But Friday was really busy for both of us so we agreed on a Saturday morning check in. I struggled through Friday feeling lost and alone and resolved (for the 1millionth time) to MAKE myself be OK. So Saturday I left a message early saying, "I'm really busy today so I don't have any private space to talk with you. But I'm OK. I'll see you Monday." And so he didn't call me. And I then I had nightmares and a bad, bad Sunday. But I held on and did not call him.
Today in therapy I told him about the nightmares and that I missed him terribly for the last 4 days but that I desperately wanted to be OK. So I felt split in two. He said "I should have seen through it. I should have called anyway, just to say "I'm glad you are OK. Then we would have had contact." I reminded him it was my responsibility to reach out, and I had told him, very convincingly, that he didn't need to call me. He said he momentarily forgot how good I was at hiding my hurt. That next time he would "insist" (nicely of course). We also talked about the "right" to change my mind, not feel foolish and call back again if things go south. He said even if I was doing well on Saturday, I shouldn't have suffered the nightmares by myself on Sunday. And since they were abuse nightmares, he knew I wouldn't process them with anyone else.He also said I was right to a certain extent. It was my responsibility to reach out but that he wanted to make it as easy as possible to do that. And that meant sometimes throwing me the life line to reach out to.
I've heard both ends of this spectrum about responsibility. What do you think?
Posted by broken on January 24, 2005, at 23:27:07
In reply to Whose responsibility is it?, posted by Daisym on January 24, 2005, at 22:59:59
If I may, I'd like to answer the last question, as to what I think. I think you have one hell of a therapist, and it's nice to know that they are out there. As far as who is responsible, I'd agree that you both are. To me personally, it is exactly as he said. While you have to be willing to reach out, he has to make you feel comfortable enough to do so. I think that is a rare quality in a T.. Congrats to you.
Broken
Posted by All Done on January 24, 2005, at 23:55:19
In reply to Whose responsibility is it?, posted by Daisym on January 24, 2005, at 22:59:59
(((Daisy))),
Well, I think ultimately it has to be your responsibility to reach out when you need the support because although we may wish our Ts are mind readers, sadly, they are not ;). I think it is great that your T realizes it may be difficult for you and wants to make it as easy as possible.
But you seem so hard on yourself about asking for and taking his support. You are going through something so difficult and only you know the full extent of it. Your T is the next closest to knowing everything. So, let him be there for you as much as you need. He can help and is there to help.
I'm sorry. I know you've heard all this before, but I hope you can listen to yourself. Deep down (or maybe even not so deep) you know when you need him. There will be plenty of time for handling things by yourself once you have worked through all of this some more and are feeling stronger. It's *so* okay that you need all the support you can get right now. Take it.
(((((Daisy)))))
Take care,
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2005, at 23:57:17
In reply to Whose responsibility is it?, posted by Daisym on January 24, 2005, at 22:59:59
I've probably told you where my therapist stands. He's totally in the camp that it's my therapy, he tells me to call if I need to, he's proven he means it, and it's up to me.
When he not only came close to insisting the other day on seeing me both Saturday and Monday it was a huge anomaly for him. He even called back and suggested that he may be giving me too much freedom to decide whether to come in.
But he's already back to normal. It's up to me how often I come in. It's up to me to call him. Our closing ritual is that he says to me "Call me if you need to." When I'm clearly feeling well, he nearly forgets and I wait with a smile till he says it. Or he says it and I give him an "I won't need to" grin. When I'm clearly feeling not well, he might add "I really mean it." But that's it.
I wish he were more like your therapist. It would feel good to feel so cared for. But he feels really strongly about the responsibility thing. Even when I was absolutely frozen today, unable to decide when I next needed to come in, he waited patiently till I babbled something.
That's how I *feel* about it. I'm pretty sure what I'd *do* about it. I'd let him take as much responsibility as he wanted, and let myself feel as cared for as I could. I'm not sure what I *think* about it.
Posted by Shortelise on January 25, 2005, at 0:34:36
In reply to Whose responsibility is it?, posted by Daisym on January 24, 2005, at 22:59:59
May I approach this from another angle?
Can it be sooner a response than a responsibility?
If you feel you need to call him, then you call him. If he feels you need him, then he calls you. The response to the feeling is the call.
Does that make sense?
Talking of responsibility in these circumstances seems unnecessary. Your feelings are so strong, so important, and the work you are doing in therapy is so important -- to inquire as to who is responsible for what at this juncture is like trying to tell a baby to make sure it cries when it's hungry, or when it needs to go to sleep.
However you can express it , however you can get through this with as little harm to yourself, that's how to do it. Chart new territory.
Write whatever rules you want. Write them and then tear them up and writethem again if you like. Do this however you have to do it. Your T is there to help you and it sounds like you have a wonderful T.
The one thing I would like to point out - or have I already pointed out too much? Probably, and you can stop reading anytime:-) - but nowis a time when you ought to have what you need, calls from your T, love and support from as many as there are to give it to you. You are doing something incredibly brave - you are looking into the depths of ugliness. You should have what you need to help you do it with the least pain possible.
Forgive my vehemence. I just feel so strongly about this.
Hugs,
ShortE
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 25, 2005, at 10:21:52
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it? » Daisym, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2005, at 23:57:17
My T's philosophy is a carbon copy of Dinah's. It is all my responsibility. I am responsible for keeping my emotions healthy, to reach out when I need to, etc. He will not be doing any of that. I'm not saying I totally agree with that at all.
I do think it is mutual responsibility, but maybe a little more so on the client than the T. But this philosophy is all I have ever known. It is so foreign to me that a T would reach out the way yours has.
Posted by Daisym on January 25, 2005, at 21:35:01
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it? » Daisym, posted by broken on January 24, 2005, at 23:27:07
Wish I could take credit for him but I count myself lucky.
Thanks for the support. Intellectually I agree with you. I just wish I could believe completely that there is no right or wrong way for a therapy to proceed. I keep waiting to be "cut off" or something.
Posted by Daisym on January 25, 2005, at 21:37:23
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it? » Daisym, posted by All Done on January 24, 2005, at 23:55:19
Thanks Laurie. I'll take as much support here as I can get. I just am terrified of overwhelming my therapist with too many sad sessions in a row. I wish the memories would calm down and come in tiny doses, not these big tidal waves.
I'm trying to believe I deserve the support.
Posted by mair on January 25, 2005, at 21:56:12
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it?, posted by Daisym on January 25, 2005, at 21:37:23
Isn't this where your therapist would jump in and say that it's his job to take care of you and not yours to take care of him. I don't think it's up to you to spare him too many sad sessions.
Although I've gone through tons of periods where I feared my T would simply decide I wasn't worth the trouble.
Mair
Posted by daisym on January 26, 2005, at 0:02:21
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it? » Daisym, posted by Shortelise on January 25, 2005, at 0:34:36
>>>is like trying to tell a baby to make sure it cries when it's hungry, or when it needs to go to sleep.
I love this! And your vehemence! I'm trying to hard to internalize it. I guess my wish is that there were more people in my life to hang on to when I'm in the dark places. But I just can't bring myself to share these horrible stories with anyone but my therapist. I know I wouldn't need him as much if I had more support. So maybe we should work on how to access more support. I guess I should talk to him about this more.
I have to travel for my job so we've been nudging this around to see if that is contributing to my fear and anxiety. We are going to touch base everyday but I'm still nervous. I hate this so much! Sometimes I think you shouldn't try and work and do therapy. Othertimes it is the best way to normalize things again.
I'm babbling so I'll stop. Thanks for your support.
Posted by daisym on January 26, 2005, at 0:24:41
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it? » Daisym, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2005, at 23:57:17
Dinah,
I think you and your therapist have figured each other out and he takes "control" when he needs to. Maybe not as often as you might like, but still... And you know he cares about you.
I think you've learned that it is OK to call him. And you trust that he isn't going anywhere. I'm not there yet. I'm really trying to be. I get there and then I drop back into the space where I criticize my own neediness and hold myself back. And I'm absolutely miserable.
I think I'm driving him crazy with this push/pull. I'm trying to just give into it right now. I'm in such turmoil. I really need him. And you. Thank you for being here.
Posted by Shortelise on January 26, 2005, at 0:36:57
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it? » Shortelise, posted by daisym on January 26, 2005, at 0:02:21
Oh, good. I was afraid I was being weird. I'm not weird, though.
Support in the form of a friend to go for walks with, someone to sit with and watch a movie and eat popcorn, someone who can just BE with you.
If you were my friend, and told me you were working on some super difficult stuff in therapy and needed someone to hang out with, I could do that, could just be with you, without needing to know what it was about. There might be someone in your life who could do that. It's wonderful to be needed. I need my friends and they need me - to greater and lesser degrees at different times. It all balances out in the end.
I hope your travels go well. A change is as good as a rest, y'know. I hope there's a pool, or nice walks to take, interesting work, or funny people.
ShortE
Posted by daisym on January 26, 2005, at 0:37:55
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 25, 2005, at 10:21:52
I understand the value of the client being responsible for taking initiative to call and/or communicate their needs. Really I do. I think my therapist does too. 90% of the time, he leaves it to me to initiate calls or extra sessions. I think perhaps the issues a client is working on might influence the responsiveness. When i'm very regressed he is much more likely to be protective or set things up so that we have lots of contact.
I guess I should stop looking at this as right or wrong but perhaps, as you have said, it is a matter of style and a therapist's way of working.
Posted by daisym on January 26, 2005, at 1:03:02
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it?, posted by mair on January 25, 2005, at 21:56:12
>>>>Isn't this where your therapist would jump in and say that it's his job to take care of you and not yours to take care of him. I don't think it's up to you to spare him too many sad sessions.
Yup, that is exactly what he would say. I said today I just needed to pull myself together. He said, "no", what I needed to do was exactly what I was doing. I needed to keep telling him how I was feeling and how hard it all is, he wanted to hear it, he wanted me to dump all my sh** out right on his carpet...and he said this AFTER the tantrum. I always feel bad when I say "You have no idea" or something in this area. I know he understands how painful this is, I feel his sadness for me. But it just pops out sometimes.
When did you start believing that your therapist thought you were worth the trouble? Just before I left today, I said very quietly, "Please don't get tired of me..." and he shook his head and said, "never." I sooo needed to hear this. Now I need to believe it.
Posted by Dinah on January 26, 2005, at 5:11:58
In reply to Re: Whose responsibility is it? » Dinah, posted by daisym on January 26, 2005, at 0:24:41
I do know he cares about me - now.
But back before I knew, and perhaps (probably) back before he did care, his boundaries made me feel rejected and in some ways frantic.
I truly do feel happy for you that your therapist isn't like that. And I wish my therapist had been better at conveying caring earlier on. Or maybe better at caring...
Where my confusion at what I *think* lies is in my self knowledge. I love my therapist, but I'm not in love with him. If he'd been more like your therapist, I suspect I'd have toppled head over heels. I'm halfway head over heels in love with your therapist long distance. :) I think half the board is.
Now that's my theoretical answer.
My personal answer is that you're in pain, and he's offered to help you in a way that he sees you need help. He's a professional who knows his limits and wouldn't offer if he weren't willing. Take him up on whatever caring gestures he offers. Lean on him when standing alone gets too hard. That's what other people are there for.
I know you're invested in your spiritual life, so I'll chance a biblical reference. When I got married, I chose as my "Old Testament" reading the obscure verse about two being better than one. That when one falls, the other is there to pick him up, and that they can keep each other warm. Things like that. I confess to having been a bit worried about using the closing line in the verse about three being better than two in a wedding. :) But I self justified that the third meant God. However the whole thing seems quite apropos in this context. Let your therapist be there for you when you fall, and keep you warm when you're cold. And remember (as I have trouble doing sometimes) to try to extend your support network as well, because three *is* better than two. (Except of course in a marital relationship, unless the third party is God. lol.)
This is the end of the thread.
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