![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:25:32
In reply to If you get a chance » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 17:16:49
It doesn't really worry me anymore. I just refuse to work with clinicians who can't get past my diagnosis to me.
The ironic thing about it all is that for the last couple of years I have been told that I don't have BPD, I have DID but nobody (in NZ) is willing to risk their reputation on making that diagnosis, so my diagnosis remains unchanged.
That is small comfort to me really as 70-80% of people with DID meet BPD criteria anyway. And then there is the point that the typical attitude towards DID is much worse than the typical attitude towards BPD...
(Now you could really have some fun with that one Fires)
It just gets to me that someone posting on a mental health board (presumably with issues of their own) can be so judgemental.
But such is life, I suppose.
Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:51:57
In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01
I don't get you at all.
First you are fairly judgemental to most of the posters on PsychoBabble.
Then you qualify that by turning it into a dig at BPD.
And then, when it looks like your dig isn't working too well because of a fault in your logic you dig out a quote on BPD specifically and read judgement into it when there isn't really any judgement (all depends on the reasons why people act like that).
Who hurt you?
Or are you just trying to defend your T?
(Only borderlines would do that, but I am not borderline, ergo...)Ignore my 'do not post to me'.
I really am interested.
Whats your problem?
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:07:21
In reply to I doubt that adding In my opinion, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:42:39
How are readers here supposed to know who acts which ways? Which bpds can we believe/trust? I know not all bpds are the same.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 18:14:04
In reply to Re: I doubt that adding In my opinion » Dinah, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:07:21
Surely everyone is an individual and should be evaluated for trustworthiness based on their behavior, not their diagnosis.
Why don't you just get to know people on this site one by one, if you wish to get to know people here. Not by a class.
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:17:39
In reply to No, you don't and I don't get you, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:51:57
1) I don't have a T. As my retired MD coined ("Tuning the Brain"): "CBT in a pill."
2)Why do you assume that someone hurt me?
3)Who said I have a problem?
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:21:10
In reply to Re: If you get a chance » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:25:32
You are assuming I'm judgmental. You stated:
"Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves..."
How civil is that comment?
Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 18:31:05
In reply to Re: If you get a chance » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:21:10
Sorry to burst your bubble but you can't get from 'some' to 'x' (a specific individual).
In other words it does not follow from
"Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves..."
that you do things like that to try and feel better about yourself. But then it does not rule that out, either.
How civil is that comment?
So I dare say that comment is perfectly fine.
Thats the brilliance of it.
Though, I apologise for the other one IF AND ONLY IF it made you feel hurt or accused. I could cite several facts that led me to come to that conclusion, but then I suppose we would need to haggle over the appropriate description of the facts.I have wasted enough of my time and effort on trolls who post just to rile people up (note: that does not mean that you are a troll and / or that you are doing this to rile people up)
Please do not post to me.
(And yes, thats you, I am talking to you now)
Posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:32:44
In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01
Surely you don't think that everyone who experiences positive or even erotic transference towards their T has BPD??
If that were the case, T's would all be millionaires.
em
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:57
In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:32:44
And I have wasted enough of my time and efforts on irrational people who post just to rile people up (note: that does not mean that you are irrational and / or that you are doing this to rile people up).
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 20:22:21
In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:57
It's wise of you to know that time spent with people who post just to rile people up could be spent more profitably. I doubt anyone would disagree with that.
And I couldn't possibly even imagine you meant to apply that to anyone on this thread, evidence weighing heavily against such a conclusion. However, I appreciate your disclaimer.
I always wonder if that internet truism is really true, though. I wonder if there really *are* people who post *just* to stir things up. But maybe sometimes a banana is just a banana.
Oh well.
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00
In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 20:22:21
I think there are peolpe who like to talk about controversial subjects. Some people seem to react to such people with strong emotions and personal attacks rather than reason.
"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people." - Admiral Hyman G. Rickover
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 20:58:30
In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00
> I think there are peolpe who like to talk about controversial subjects. Some people seem to react to such people with strong emotions and personal attacks rather than reason.
True, but in my experience, those who like to talk about controversial subjects have some vested interest in them. And if they are debating for the sake of improving knowledge, I find that respect and empathy for the other side of the discussion helps to understand the complete picture and thus expands knowledge.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:03:12
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » Dinah, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:20:45
> I think it matters because:
>
> My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
>
> p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:08:32
In reply to Re: No, you don't and I don't get you » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:17:39
> 1) I don't have a T. As my retired MD coined ("Tuning the Brain"): "CBT in a pill."
>
> 2)Why do you assume that someone hurt me?
>
> 3)Who said I have a problem?Ooh, loaded questions. My favorite.
gg
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:03:12
> > I think it matters because:
> >
> > My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
> >
> > p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"
>
> I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.
>
> ggNo, but given the following "symptoms", I'm sure it must help:
Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluationidentity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)chronic feelings of emptiness
inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:23:58
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » gardenergirl, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18
I'm sure you could say the same about antisocial personality disorder.
gg
Posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 21:30:48
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » gardenergirl, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18
It's quite safe to say that not everyone who files a law suit against a T has BPD. It's probably a REALLY safe bet to say that not everyone who has BPD files law suits against their T's. It's also, a REALLY REALLY safe bet, that T's who SHOULD have law suits brought against them often don't.
So, how is it that you know that your highly ethical pdoc had a lawsuit brought against him by a BPD client?? He didn't reveal this information to you, did he??
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 21:55:32
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 21:30:48
Hmmm... Good point, Emmy.
And it also brings to mind the long, but hopefully infrequent, tradition in the mental health community of writing off people who complain of misconduct as "borderline" and thereby dismissing what are sometimes valid complaints.
Of course, the fact that mental health practitioners have been known to misuse the borderline diagnosis to cover their own ethical lapses does not in any way mean that this particular pdoc did that.
Just because some mental health practitioners behave very very badly is no reason to make assumptions about others.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 21:59:24
In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00
I'm sure that's true.
However, this thread seemed to concentrate mainly on logic as far as I can see. Theorems, proofs. Whether if x then y is a valid conclusion. Subsets, extrapolations, etc.
Math, really.
Posted by littleone on December 12, 2004, at 22:16:35
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » gardenergirl, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18
Fires,
I don't really understand what point you are trying to make. Of course people with BPD (and other people with similar issues) are going to seek treatment and deal with T's and MD's and whatnot.
And of course it's possible that problems will arise from these dealings (eg lawsuits, transference, you name it).
But T's are trained to deal with this (although MD's probably aren't). Are you suggesting that people with BPD should just live out the rest of their lives in a hole somewhere so they won't cause interpersonal problems?
The whole idea of therapy is for the person to go along and have these problems raise their ugly head and to deal with the issues and break the patterns that are prevalent in these people lives.
You mention this lawsuit with an MD you know. This could have just as easily been a lawsuit against a work boss or colleague or teacher or just about anybody. One way to prevent this from happening is for the person to get therapy and address their issues.
And for that to happen, the person in question has to interact with members of the medical/psych community. Regardless of what interpersonal problems this interaction may illicit.
> > > I think it matters because:
> > >
> > > My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
> > >
> > > p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"
> >
> > I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.
> >
> > gg
>
> No, but given the following "symptoms", I'm sure it must help:
>
> Diagnostic Criteria
> A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
>
>
>
> frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
>
> Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
>
>
> a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
>
> identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
>
>
> impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
>
>
> Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
>
>
> recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
>
>
> affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
>
> chronic feelings of emptiness
>
>
> inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
>
>
> transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
>
>
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 22:44:18
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 21:30:48
> It's quite safe to say that not everyone who files a law suit against a T has BPD. It's probably a REALLY safe bet to say that not everyone who has BPD files law suits against their T's. It's also, a REALLY REALLY safe bet, that T's who SHOULD have law suits brought against them often don't.
>
> So, how is it that you know that your highly ethical pdoc had a lawsuit brought against him by a BPD client?? He didn't reveal this information to you, did he??
>
>
He mentions the story on p. 34 of one of his books: "Tuning the Brain". He doesn't give the patients name.Also, he never became a psychiatrist, but rather a Family Doc with a renowned expertise in psychopharmacology, treatment resistant patients, and CFS.
He (my retired MD) decided not to become a PDoc because of incidents like the following which he mentions in the above mentioned book: (I'm condensing it)
He was acing as an intern in a children's hosp.. A 13 year old boy was admitted with a movement disorder which had been Dxed as hysterical but had not responded to 4 years of 5x a week psychoanalysis. The boy also had myoclonic jerks and coprolalia. He immediately Dxed the boy with Tourette's and administered a low dose of Haldol (the only pharmalogic treatment available back then), and the boy was essentially symptom free in less than an hour. His parents were amazed and grateful, and their child was discharged the next day.
He was reprimanded by the chief of child psych. the next day. He didn't realize that the parents might be quite angry with their child's analyst.
He then briefly told the chief about Tourette's, and that it couldn't respond to psychoanalysis because it was a neuro. disorder.
"Remember that this era was one when psychiatry was psychoanalysis, which was the appropriate, best, and only treatment for virtually every disorder that even had a trace of psychiatric flavor added to it (even asthma, ulcers, and headaches, as well as schizophrenia and mania)."
The book contains many similar disgusting, yet fascinating stories. (No personal financial interest).
Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 22:52:26
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by littleone on December 12, 2004, at 22:16:35
Are you aware of the current prognosis for those with moderate to severe BPD? Yes they deserve treatment, but don't expect a great outcome.
http://health.allrefer.com/health/borderline-personality-disorder-prognosis.html
Posted by TofuEmmy on December 13, 2004, at 2:53:03
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » littleone, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 22:52:26
>Are you aware of the current prognosis for those with moderate to severe BPD? Yes they deserve treatment, but don't expect a great outcome.
>http://health.allrefer.com/health/borderline-personality-disorder-prognosis.html
-------------------------------------------
The current treatment for BPD is CBT which has shown very good results and is close to receiving funding in many states as an "evidence based practice".Published in July 2004 in Psychiatric Times:
"Great strides have been made in understanding the etiologies, neurobiology and longitudinal course of BPD. An evidence-based practice guideline has been developed for the disorder, and a growing number of studies demonstrate that carefully planned and administered treatment can be effective for many patients with BPD."
To post that url with one simple sentence saying, "Borderline personality disorder has a poor outlook because noncompliance with treatment is common" sounds to me to be to be very unsupportive of the many posters here with BPD. It's also an outdated perspective in the field of BPD treatment. I feel that your additional comment, "don't expect a great oucome" would certainly be disheartening for a poster with BPD.
The nature of this forum is education and support. I feel your post lacked these components.
Emmy
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2004, at 5:34:35
In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » littleone, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 22:52:26
No easy task...
Posted by fallsfall on December 13, 2004, at 7:11:37
In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01
> I keep reading posts in which people here talk about calling their therapist between visits, worrying about their therapists, being in love with their Ts, ... What are "these people" (or you) in T for?
Perhaps "these people" are in therapy because they tend to establish "unhelpful" relationship patterns and they are seeking to understand how to change that.
>
> Borderline Personality Disorder. I'm baffled as to what else it could be. Thanks.I was diagnosed with BPD, though my current therapist disagrees. I never was a "Typical" BPD patient, anyway. I have a strong attachment (you could call it a "dependency" - others have) to my therapist - probably due to emotional neglect while I was growing up. You say that you are baffled as to what else it could be - If you are interested in an answer as to what else it could be, then I suggest Emotional Neglect.
For those (of us) who have BPD, it is a sign of strength that we have sought therapy for our issues. Since your retired MD did not feel able to deal with these patients, I think it was a good choice for him (and his patients) for him to choose not to pursue a Pdoc career. I also did not choose to pursue a Pdoc career, and I would guess that you made that same choice.
Isn't it wonderful that there are so many kind of people and so many career choices, so that people can choose a career that suits them and that they are well suited for?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.