Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 428388

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PS

Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:45:24

In reply to I doubt that adding In my opinion, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:42:39

That was levity. :)

 

Re: I don't get it » fires

Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 16:55:37

In reply to Re: I don't get it » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:31:57

Oh I see, so one person does that and all of a sudden all people with that diagnosis are tarred with the same brush.

I am oh so tempted to ask what you have been diagnosed with so I can return the compliment.

> "There is also emotional instability with marked and frequent shifts to an empty lonely depression or to irritability and anxiety. There may be unpredictable and impulsive behavior which might include excessive spending, promiscuity, gambling, drug or alcohol abuse, shoplifting, overeating or physically self-damaging actions such as suicide gestures. The person may show inappropriate and intense anger or rage with temper tantrums, constant brooding and resentment, feelings of deprivation, and a loss of control or fear of loss of control over angry feelings. There are also identity disturbances with confusion and uncertainty about self-identity, sexuality, life goals and values, career choices, friendships. There is a deep-seated feeling that one is flawed, defective, damaged or bad in some way, with a tendency to go to extremes in thinking, feeling or behavior. Under extreme stress or in severe cases there can be brief psychotic episodes with loss of contact with reality or bizarre behavior or symptoms."

And what, you think I haven't seen that before?

> Hard to communicate with, or trust someone with such severe symptoms -- in my opinion.

Well I find it hard to trust or communicate with someone who is expressing such a judgemental attitude as yourself - in my opinion.

 

Re: I don't get it

Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:05:03

In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 16:55:37

Yeah, okay, so no doubt my response just confirms your already low opinion of my diagnosis. Not only that, but considering that you do not distinguish between people and what they have been diagnosed with no doubt my above post just confirms your already low opinion of me.

I take what you have to say extremely personally because BPD is the diagnosis that provokes more judgement than anything else (aside from maybe DID).

But you really have no idea.

If you actually care to broaden your mind I suggest you read "Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder".

Imagine what it may be like to be an emotionally sensitive and intense child who is met by the world by abuse and emotional invalidation so that when you try to say how you feel you are told not to be stupid or worse. You learn that your emotional responses are unacceptable so you try to repress them as best you can. But then they come out so intense that you think you are going to die and you do not even know that they are emotions. You hate yourself and who you are so much that you cut and burn and so on. And then to be told that such things are 'attention seeking' is just oh so ironic when the only way people found out was when they strip searched you.

That is my experience.

My experience is that clinicians are judgemental towards people who experience BPD because they get frustrated that there is no magic pill. There is nothing they can do to make it stop or make it go away. After a while that turns into countertransference and blaming the victim.

I really don't get you and your attitude.
I consider your post to be completely unsupportive of people with this diagnosis.
And completely judgemental.
If you cannot change your attitude, or at least refrain from expressing it I would request that you do not post to me.

 

Re: I don't get it » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 17:15:39

In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:05:03

Please don't let it upset you, Alexandra. More and more, clinicians are starting to lose the judgmental attitude that used to exist. And more and more are starting to consider it less a personality disorder than an affective disorder. Which makes perfect sense under Linehan's model. (Although frankly, I think all "personality disorders" should be reclassified to the underlying cause.)

I think we mental health advocates are winning on this one front. But it takes time for knowledge to seep in. Remember the old theories of autism?

 

If you get a chance » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 17:16:49

In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:05:03

Talk to Nikki about this. She's doing some exciting advocacy work in the UK.

 

Re: If you get a chance » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:25:32

In reply to If you get a chance » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 17:16:49

It doesn't really worry me anymore. I just refuse to work with clinicians who can't get past my diagnosis to me.

The ironic thing about it all is that for the last couple of years I have been told that I don't have BPD, I have DID but nobody (in NZ) is willing to risk their reputation on making that diagnosis, so my diagnosis remains unchanged.

That is small comfort to me really as 70-80% of people with DID meet BPD criteria anyway. And then there is the point that the typical attitude towards DID is much worse than the typical attitude towards BPD...

(Now you could really have some fun with that one Fires)

It just gets to me that someone posting on a mental health board (presumably with issues of their own) can be so judgemental.

But such is life, I suppose.
Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves...

 

No, you don't and I don't get you

Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:51:57

In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01

I don't get you at all.

First you are fairly judgemental to most of the posters on PsychoBabble.

Then you qualify that by turning it into a dig at BPD.

And then, when it looks like your dig isn't working too well because of a fault in your logic you dig out a quote on BPD specifically and read judgement into it when there isn't really any judgement (all depends on the reasons why people act like that).

Who hurt you?
Or are you just trying to defend your T?
(Only borderlines would do that, but I am not borderline, ergo...)

Ignore my 'do not post to me'.
I really am interested.
Whats your problem?

 

Re: I doubt that adding In my opinion » Dinah

Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:07:21

In reply to I doubt that adding In my opinion, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 16:42:39

How are readers here supposed to know who acts which ways? Which bpds can we believe/trust? I know not all bpds are the same.

 

Why isn't that true of anyone? » fires

Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 18:14:04

In reply to Re: I doubt that adding In my opinion » Dinah, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:07:21

Surely everyone is an individual and should be evaluated for trustworthiness based on their behavior, not their diagnosis.

Why don't you just get to know people on this site one by one, if you wish to get to know people here. Not by a class.

 

Re: No, you don't and I don't get you » alexandra_k

Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:17:39

In reply to No, you don't and I don't get you, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:51:57

1) I don't have a T. As my retired MD coined ("Tuning the Brain"): "CBT in a pill."

2)Why do you assume that someone hurt me?

3)Who said I have a problem?

 

Re: If you get a chance » alexandra_k

Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:21:10

In reply to Re: If you get a chance » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 17:25:32

You are assuming I'm judgmental. You stated:

"Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves..."

How civil is that comment?

 

Re: If you get a chance » fires

Posted by alexandra_k on December 12, 2004, at 18:31:05

In reply to Re: If you get a chance » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:21:10

Sorry to burst your bubble but you can't get from 'some' to 'x' (a specific individual).

In other words it does not follow from

"Some people do things like that to try and feel better about themselves..."

that you do things like that to try and feel better about yourself. But then it does not rule that out, either.

How civil is that comment?

So I dare say that comment is perfectly fine.
Thats the brilliance of it.
Though, I apologise for the other one IF AND ONLY IF it made you feel hurt or accused. I could cite several facts that led me to come to that conclusion, but then I suppose we would need to haggle over the appropriate description of the facts.

I have wasted enough of my time and effort on trolls who post just to rile people up (note: that does not mean that you are a troll and / or that you are doing this to rile people up)

Please do not post to me.

(And yes, thats you, I am talking to you now)

 

Re: I don't get it » fires

Posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:32:44

In reply to I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 15:39:01

Surely you don't think that everyone who experiences positive or even erotic transference towards their T has BPD??

If that were the case, T's would all be millionaires.

em

 

Re: I don't get it

Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:57

In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 18:32:44

And I have wasted enough of my time and efforts on irrational people who post just to rile people up (note: that does not mean that you are irrational and / or that you are doing this to rile people up).

 

Re: I don't get it » fires

Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 20:22:21

In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:02:57

It's wise of you to know that time spent with people who post just to rile people up could be spent more profitably. I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

And I couldn't possibly even imagine you meant to apply that to anyone on this thread, evidence weighing heavily against such a conclusion. However, I appreciate your disclaimer.

I always wonder if that internet truism is really true, though. I wonder if there really *are* people who post *just* to stir things up. But maybe sometimes a banana is just a banana.

Oh well.

 

Re: I don't get it

Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00

In reply to Re: I don't get it » fires, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 20:22:21

I think there are peolpe who like to talk about controversial subjects. Some people seem to react to such people with strong emotions and personal attacks rather than reason.

"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people." - Admiral Hyman G. Rickover

 

Re: I don't get it » fires

Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 20:58:30

In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00

> I think there are peolpe who like to talk about controversial subjects. Some people seem to react to such people with strong emotions and personal attacks rather than reason.

True, but in my experience, those who like to talk about controversial subjects have some vested interest in them. And if they are debating for the sake of improving knowledge, I find that respect and empathy for the other side of the discussion helps to understand the complete picture and thus expands knowledge.

gg

 

Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires

Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:03:12

In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » Dinah, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 16:20:45

> I think it matters because:
>
> My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
>
> p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"

I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.

gg

 

Re: No, you don't and I don't get you » fires

Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:08:32

In reply to Re: No, you don't and I don't get you » alexandra_k, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 18:17:39

> 1) I don't have a T. As my retired MD coined ("Tuning the Brain"): "CBT in a pill."
>
> 2)Why do you assume that someone hurt me?
>
> 3)Who said I have a problem?

Ooh, loaded questions. My favorite.

gg

 

Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » gardenergirl

Posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18

In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:03:12

> > I think it matters because:
> >
> > My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
> >
> > p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"
>
> I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.
>
> gg

No, but given the following "symptoms", I'm sure it must help:

Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.

Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.


a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self


impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).


Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.


recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior


affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

chronic feelings of emptiness


inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)


transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

 

Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires

Posted by gardenergirl on December 12, 2004, at 21:23:58

In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » gardenergirl, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18

I'm sure you could say the same about antisocial personality disorder.

gg

 

Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires

Posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 21:30:48

In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » gardenergirl, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18

It's quite safe to say that not everyone who files a law suit against a T has BPD. It's probably a REALLY safe bet to say that not everyone who has BPD files law suits against their T's. It's also, a REALLY REALLY safe bet, that T's who SHOULD have law suits brought against them often don't.

So, how is it that you know that your highly ethical pdoc had a lawsuit brought against him by a BPD client?? He didn't reveal this information to you, did he??

 

Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » TofuEmmy

Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 21:55:32

In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires, posted by TofuEmmy on December 12, 2004, at 21:30:48

Hmmm... Good point, Emmy.

And it also brings to mind the long, but hopefully infrequent, tradition in the mental health community of writing off people who complain of misconduct as "borderline" and thereby dismissing what are sometimes valid complaints.

Of course, the fact that mental health practitioners have been known to misuse the borderline diagnosis to cover their own ethical lapses does not in any way mean that this particular pdoc did that.

Just because some mental health practitioners behave very very badly is no reason to make assumptions about others.

 

Re: I don't get it » fires

Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 21:59:24

In reply to Re: I don't get it, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 20:42:00

I'm sure that's true.

However, this thread seemed to concentrate mainly on logic as far as I can see. Theorems, proofs. Whether if x then y is a valid conclusion. Subsets, extrapolations, etc.

Math, really.

 

Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » fires

Posted by littleone on December 12, 2004, at 22:16:35

In reply to Re: That's ok. There's no need for you to get it. » gardenergirl, posted by fires on December 12, 2004, at 21:19:18

Fires,

I don't really understand what point you are trying to make. Of course people with BPD (and other people with similar issues) are going to seek treatment and deal with T's and MD's and whatnot.

And of course it's possible that problems will arise from these dealings (eg lawsuits, transference, you name it).

But T's are trained to deal with this (although MD's probably aren't). Are you suggesting that people with BPD should just live out the rest of their lives in a hole somewhere so they won't cause interpersonal problems?

The whole idea of therapy is for the person to go along and have these problems raise their ugly head and to deal with the issues and break the patterns that are prevalent in these people lives.

You mention this lawsuit with an MD you know. This could have just as easily been a lawsuit against a work boss or colleague or teacher or just about anybody. One way to prevent this from happening is for the person to get therapy and address their issues.

And for that to happen, the person in question has to interact with members of the medical/psych community. Regardless of what interpersonal problems this interaction may illicit.

> > > I think it matters because:
> > >
> > > My former MD, a specialist in TRPs, had a bpd patient file a bogus lawsuit against him because he refused to have an affair with her.
> > >
> > > p. 34 "Tuning the Brain"
> >
> > I hardly think that one must have bpd to file a bogus lawsuit.
> >
> > gg
>
> No, but given the following "symptoms", I'm sure it must help:
>
> Diagnostic Criteria
> A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
>
>
>
> frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
>
> Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
>
>
> a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
>
> identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
>
>
> impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
>
>
> Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
>
>
> recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
>
>
> affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
>
> chronic feelings of emptiness
>
>
> inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
>
>
> transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
>
>


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