![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2004, at 15:00:36
In reply to Re: ...our spaceship for discovery..., posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 13:42:41
sunny,
>
> I think that Rod is suggesting that we continue to open our minds, consciously and sometimes with great effort, because to do so would make it harder for depression to take a hold of us.
>
> Did I get you right this time, Rod???<<< ...and I didn't have to lift a finger. I love you guys.
Sunny, when you "get-it", you really "get-it"! Thanx for the open mind I hear here. Now your life is changed (ever so slightly, and not tragic or toxic this time) and forever. Welcome to your NEW YOU....!
Rod
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 15:18:49
In reply to » sunny » Did you??!?, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2004, at 15:00:36
As there is an established link between intelligence, creativity, and depressive illness I really don't understand the connection you're making to a closed mind /depression, and open mind/less chance of depression, unless you believe (no sarcasm) that intelligence and creativity are a form of closed mindedness.
Can you explain?
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2004, at 15:44:31
In reply to Re: ...our spaceship for discovery..., posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 13:42:41
Are you saying major depressive illness depends on a closed mind?
I thought a review of the life histories of some of our greatest thinkers and leaders pretty much show that major depression has a strong biological component.
I see a big problem here with cause and effect.
Posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 15:54:49
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 15:18:49
Gabbix2,
I am simply asking you to remember that a hypo (or hyper)manic, creative episode is not the same as a major depressive episode. I'm afraid we are talking apples and oranges, here.
Major depresion is not the same as what is now known as BiPolar disorder. If you go back to your history, the creative geniuses to which you refer were usually post-humously diagnosed with BiPolar, not Major, Depression. And the artists who WERE suspected of having Major Depression mainly painted the same things over and over- rather closed-minded, don't you agree? They were being commissioned, in some cases, to STAY depressed, like Hyroniuos Bosch (sorry, I'm SURE I've misspelled his name again...)
Does the distinction between BiPolar and Major Depression make this concept a little easier to at least ponder? And, we do not mean to offend, here, merely to ponder...
I believe Ron mentioned "mental masturbation" in another thread... We are mainly doing the same thing, here... that's all. What info helps for some doesn't help others. All pondering is not one size fits all, I'm afraid...
Posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2004, at 15:56:57
In reply to Re: ...our spaceship for discovery... » sunny10, posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 14:28:25
Gabbi,
>
> It's not black and white.<<< You mean "Progress, not perfection"...?
> It requires thinking, and thinking requires curiousity.
><<< Be careful. Not everyone is capable of logic. Not their fault. They lacked encouragement and guidance at critical points in their maturation. But they can still feel, curious. I haven't known anyone to feel curious and depressed at exactly the same time. I've asked and probed. Nobody yet...
<<< Could I be sharing about something never heard before, even though someone had to have known about it, since I've been putting bits and pieces of it together for nearly 20 years?
As an emotion, curiosity requires feeling. A professor from the University of Haifa, in Isreal, has written what seems the definitive tome on emotions. In there he discusses what an emotion is and includes curiosity as one.
From Pop-Religion is another authur, currently much quoted, indicates that there are only two emotions, love and fear. I read both of these books at Border's Books over coffee.
> Generalizations don't get you very far, and the truth generally lies somewhere in the middle.
><<< So, if the professor lists a couple hundred emotions and the authur says there are only two, wisdom indicates that perhaps there are 60 to 75 emotions, of which curiosity could be a likely place-holder on the list. ...making curiosity a feeling.
> ...To insinuate that one can will it away by gossiping less and becoming even more curious is reductive...
><<< How so?
<<< Learning stuff is not "willing" stuff. I am not into magic, we cannot "will" stuff away. Control-freaks are still in denail about their success at "willing" stuff away. The rest of us know the folly in the logic of any attempts to "will" anything.
I advocate that we watch ourselves and learn how to do it different next time. That's learning stuff not "willing" stuff, seems to me anyway.
Rod
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2004, at 16:06:06
In reply to our spaceship for discovery... » Gabbix2, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2004, at 15:56:57
Because I reject the theory that if I was curious enough, or prayed enough, or partied enough, or (insert theory here) enough, I would be juussst fine.
Posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 16:46:38
In reply to I must be closed minded, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2004, at 16:06:06
you are one of the least closed-minded people with whom I have had the pleasure of conversing!
Have you ever been through CBT- sorry if I've forgotten? I'm wondering because the very first thing they asked me about were my hobbies. I didn't have any besides reading books (which is less of a hobby and more of an "escape from the world", the way I do it...)
Don't get me wrong- I was BUSY... working, raising a child, keeping a house, cooking, running errands, being a divorcee (which is exhausting all by itself) et cetera. But I was doing absolutely nothing just for fun- for me. And I was so depressed that I couldn't see any other way to live and hating the way I lived. I rejected the therapists' ideas out of hand with every therapist I went to DURING A MAJOR DEPRESSIVE EPISODE. Once the depression was lifted (yes, by medication- I can't get out of it by "free will" alone DURING the episode), I was more open to outside ideas and motivated myself enough to start hiking. Step one was actually shelling out hard earned money on a pair of hiking boots, when I have absolutely ZERO credit due to past depressions and the life I led because of them. I HAD to force myself to see myself as being worth the investment, first! The medication did that, no question. But once it was lifted, I chose to try to do SOMETHING to enjoy life more. I had to, or risk another episode. As you know, from other posts, I am not "yippee, happy go lucky," all the time" ! But I DO feel better now than I have in a long time.
And I'm sure that the chemical side of my depression WILL override my "free will practices" from time to time, but I am hoping that I am lengthing the time between episodes by logically and methodically taking time to analyze what I choose to incorporate, and by "celebrating" myself by induging in hobbies- sometimes neglecting housework, et cetera. There are numerous studies that DO show that people can raise their own "feel good" brain chemical levels by engaging in enjoyable activities. I am choosing to try this AND try to separate logic from emotion in order to survive. And, yes, that is taxing at times.
But that's me, and I suffer from Major Depression and GAD. It is both due to "nurture AND nature". I am lucky to be on the "easier"( ? ) side of chemical depression (nature), so these things may possibly work for me where they might not work for someone with a different diagnosis. And on the "nurture" side, I am the only one who is responsible for nurturing me now... so I guess I better do a better job than my family did for me when I was dependent on them...
Unlike you, I cannot emotionally divorce myself from my mother. But I CAN chose not to allow her to emotionally abuse me anymore. I just do not let her into my life or my son's life, period. I have not seen her, by choice, since I was nineteen yrs old. I am 37 now.
Most importantly, Dinah, I am merely regurgitating the essence of most of your posts, here. And, frankly, most of your posts are a great deal stronger in character than any of mine! Whether you "see" it or not, you practice this theory every day. You do it with your parents, you do it with your son, you do it with your husband, and you do it when you give the rest of us a "boost"!
That's why I've been in awe of you, Sabrina, Susan, and ALL of the others. We are ALL practicing it by even being a part of Babble.
I hope I made sense, here.....
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 16:49:19
In reply to Re: closed mind... » Gabbix2, posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 15:54:49
>> I am simply asking you to remember that a hypo (or hyper)manic, creative episode is not the same as a major depressive episode. I'm afraid we are talking apples and oranges, here.
>I was speaking of Major Unipolar Depressive disorder not bi-polar disorder, I'm aware of the distinction.
> Major depresion is not the same as what is now known as BiPolar disorder. If you go back to your history, the creative geniuses to which you refer were usually post-humously diagnosed with BiPolar,
Abraham Lincoln, Edgar Allen Poe, Mark Twain, William Styron, Albert Camus, Buzz Aldrin (there's curiousity!) Andrew Solomon, All depressives. I did not refer to geniuses. I did refer to artists, authors, and presidents.
> And the artists who WERE suspected of having Major Depression mainly painted the same things over and over- rather closed-minded, don't you agree?
Actually no, but that's not really important.
>
> Does the distinction between BiPolar and Major Depression make this concept a little easier to at least ponder? And, we do not mean to offend, here, merely to ponder...Well I think the distinction isn't germane to what I had posted originally, and had either of
the posts to which I had respoded refered to pondering, I wouldn't have said "Generalizations don't get you very far and the truth lies somewhere in the middle""Curiosity and Major depression CANNOT coexist in a closed mind" and "as long as you practice curiusity you don't have time for a depressive episode or gossiping and griping"
come across to me as definitive statements not an invitations to consider, or ponderences.
Posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 16:58:02
In reply to Re: closed mind... » sunny10, posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 16:49:19
Sorry to offend again, Gabbix2.
I never said I was a T or Pdoc.
I'm just a poster trying to bounce ideas off of other people for their responses.
Thank you for your response. Good to know there are lots of ideas/theories, and personalities here.
That's what makes us interesting. Boy, would we all be boring ourselves if we only ever agreed!
Have a nice evening...
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 17:14:30
In reply to our spaceship for discovery... » Gabbix2, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2004, at 15:56:57
> > It's not black and white.
>
> <<< You mean "Progress, not perfection"...?No, that's not what I meant. I meant every situation of depression is a little bit different. What works for one will not necessarily work for another.
>
> > It requires thinking, and thinking requires curiousity.
> >
>
> <<< Be careful. Not everyone is capable of logic. Not their fault.I'm quite capable of logic, thanks.
To want to learn is to be curious.
>I haven't known anyone to feel curious and >depressed at exactly the same time. I've asked >and probed. Nobody yet...Yes but it can be a mistake to make generalizations from one's own experience. I've not known anyone who's fought in a war yet, but I know that they exist.
Gardner girl told you, and I've told you we've remained curious during our depressions, try telling Larry H. he's not curious! or Chemist or the author of Noonday Demon or anyone who's suffering from depression and curious enough to search for a cure.
>
> <<< Could I be sharing about something never heard before, even though someone had to have known about it, since I've been putting bits and pieces of it together for nearly 20 years?
>
I've heard this before, my mom used to tell me this very thing.> As an emotion, curiosity requires feeling. A professor from the University of Haifa, in Isreal, has written what seems the definitive tome on emotions. In there he discusses what an emotion is and includes curiosity as one.
That's semantics to me> From Pop-Religion is another authur, currently much quoted, indicates that there are only two emotions, love and fear. I read both of these books at Border's Books over coffee.
>
> > Generalizations don't get you very far, and the truth generally lies somewhere in the middle.
> >
>
> <<< So, if the professor lists a couple hundred emotions and the authur says there are only two, wisdom indicates that perhaps there are 60 to 75 emotions, of which curiosity could be a likely place-holder on the list. ...making curiosity a feeling.
>
Curiosity is what it is.
> > ...To insinuate that one can will it away by gossiping less and becoming even more curious is reductive...
> >
>
> <<< How so?Because you are working on the assumption that
A. everyone who suffers from Depression has the same symptoms
B. Everyone who has the symptoms of Major Depression is not curious
C. Everyone who has the symptoms of Major Depression gossips too much.
D. If these people who all suffer from the same symptoms (false) who are all not curious (false)
Who all spend to much time gossiping (false)
follow these instructions they will get better.That's simplistic, reductive, and it would be really nice if it were that easy. Unfortunately if that were the case I would not have become depressed in the first place.
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 17:21:17
In reply to Re: closed mind... » Gabbix2, posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 16:58:02
> Sorry to offend again, Gabbix2.
>no apologies necessary sunny. I used to actually be a lot "nicer" on Babble, but then people got to know me and I stopped cloaking everything in "nice" because people already knew I liked them, and I was questioning the post, not them. Now there's all you NEW people, and *sigh* I have to start being NICE all over again dam*it!
I really like discussion, and thinking.
Sometimes when I'm a little off though I can forget that there's a person behind the post if they sound really sure of themselves.So I'm sorry too.
You have a nice evening too : )
Posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2004, at 20:53:02
In reply to Re: our spaceship for discovery... » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 17:14:30
> No, that's not what I meant. I meant every situation of depression is a little bit different. What works for one will not necessarily work for another.
I agree with Gabbi here. I have atypical depression, and my depressive episodes do not look like the "norm" for depression, if there really is one. If you consider the wide range of self-thoughts, past experiences, biological underpinnings including all the possible combinations of alleles and genetic markers, all the different AD's we may or may not be on in various doses, the differences in support systems, overall physical health, co-morbities, shoot...is that enough? Depression has some common elements, but how it is experienced is unique to each individual. And what works or doesn't is unique to each as well.
That doesn't mean that what has worked for Rod and others is not valid. It's just not penicillin for depression. I'm allergic to penicillen anyway, so it's no magic pill for me.
> It requires thinking, and thinking requires curiousity.
Hmmm, as a graduate student, I think I can speak for at least myself that thinking sometimes is a requirement in and of itself. I may not be remotely curious about the subject, but I have to think about it. But then this is another semantic argument. ;)
> >
> > <<< Could I be sharing about something never heard before, even though someone had to have known about it, since I've been putting bits and pieces of it together for nearly 20 years?Rod, perhaps you can be, but considering that you are basing this on your mentor's writings, at least in part, I don't know that you are sharing with us something all that earth shattering. You are sharing what makes sense to you. My own therapy orientation is what makes sense to me. It does not to my supervisor. I think we all tend to gravitate to theories that help us understand ourselves. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, the different theories are another celebration of diversity. But what works for one in one situation may not work for others. It may not even work for that same one in a different situation.
I think the difficulty some have with your theories is the way you present them. Theories are theories. They are not law. And when somebody seems to suggest that they know the way to our own happiness, it can feel off-putting, at least to me. Heck, I've worked with my T for over a year now, and I know I can still surprise him with some of my thoughts, issues, and feelings. His openness to being with me in whatever comes out is what makes him so special to me. He has theories about how therapy helps, but he has to listen to me to know how to apply them or when to modify his approach.
I'm sure that you value this as well. Communicating in this media is difficult, and perhaps your enthusiasm for your beliefs can add valence to what you are saying that you might not intend?
gg
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 20:59:59
In reply to Re: our spaceship for discovery..., posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2004, at 20:53:02
Thanks GG, that's what I was trying to say, only much more thoughtfully put. And as for thinking requiring curiousity, it's true, much thinking I suppose is rote, wanting to learn is more likely to require curiousity.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2004, at 3:04:23
In reply to Re: I must be closed minded, posted by sunny10 on December 5, 2004, at 16:46:38
In fact I know I have been. It leads to a lot of apologizing.
Actually, although I have had bouts of depression, depression isn't my major problem. And neither is lack of curiosity. When something captures my interest I devour it whole. I drive my husband nuts because as soon as we mention that maybe we'd like to look into something I throw myself into it and have thoroughly researched it before he gets a chance to do anything.
I haven't really noticed that it's helped my mental illness at all. Although of course I have no way of knowing what I'd be like without a healthy interest in whatever captures my fancy.
But like Gabbi, I can't help but think of some of the people on this site (or people like Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill who sprung immediately to mind) who clearly have a curiosity about any number of topics, clearly are passionately involved with ideas, yet also suffer from major depression. If anything, I rather think that major depression and a greater than normal intensity of interest and feeling for things and ideas may go hand in hand. Some of the happiest and least depressed people I know are ones who prefer to live the unexamined life.
Then of course I have a knee jerk reaction to anything that so much as hints at blaming people for things like major depression or a finely tuned nervous system. Or that reminds me of my parents', bosses', and many acquaintances' response to emotional problems.
All that being said, physical activity has been pretty definitively linked to improved mental health, hasn't it? I know there were some references in recent threads to yoga. It's a mystery to me (smile) because I *never* feel better after exercise, but your chosen interest may have a chemical basis for making you feel better - endorphins and all that. My therapist used to recommend sex (before he got to know me).
Posted by 64bowtie on December 6, 2004, at 5:32:22
In reply to Re: our spaceship for discovery... » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 17:14:30
Posted by 64bowtie on December 6, 2004, at 6:03:56
In reply to Re: I must be crabby lately » sunny10, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2004, at 3:04:23
Dinah, Please indulge me...
It has become very important that I stop the train. Being prone to depression and being curious are not mutually exclusive. You can have a history of depression and still have a history of being curious.
Please study yourself while in a fit of deep depression, sorta outta body (objectively). Attempt to be curious about a new thought, investigating its etiology. Notice that for that brief moment of curiosity, you were not consumed by the succumbing feelings of depressive despair. If you can still conjure up intuition, inciteful aha!s, meanful duh!s, while retaining the depressive despair, I'll still eat my hat.
These are not new conditions I put on this statement. I always have maintained they both can't be done at the same exact time in space. It ain't gonna happen.
Why am I going at this so hot and heavy? Because the more often you insist on being curious, the less time you have to be in succumbing depressive despair!
Is this a good thing? I'll eat another hat if you can prove that getting outta depression is a bad thing!
The aha! that comes along with curiosity provides a moment of bliss. Bliss and depression don't mix well, without a nuclear explosion or something...
When nuclear mass goes prompt-super-critical, inside the fireball, everything is a possibility!
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on December 6, 2004, at 6:21:20
In reply to ...our spaceship for discovery..., posted by 64bowtie on December 4, 2004, at 14:17:48
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 6, 2004, at 18:55:11
In reply to Why do I feel I'm being punished by you? (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by 64bowtie on December 6, 2004, at 5:32:22
I wouldn't want to try and tell you why you feel the way you do Rod, but I can say I'm not trying to punish you. In all honesty, yes I often don't tolerate your approach well, and often feel condescended to by you. That's not the sole reason I tell you what I think when I disagree with you though. You present yourself as a coach not a person in need of support. So when you ask for feedback, I give it to you. I would do the same for anyone who claimed to be a professional and asked for feedback, or made claims about an illness I live with. Your posts rarely question, they're quite self-assured statements, and you have said you weren't asking for "warm fuzzies" therefore I've never felt my responses need to be delicate either.
Originally I had thought if I just didn't respond to you it wouldn't be offering you the feedback you've asked for and that wouldn't be helpful to you.
It doesn't seem that it's really doing either of us much good, and probably contributing to a negative feeling on babble overall, so I think this will most likely be my last post.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2004, at 19:21:57
In reply to » (((Dinah))) » Pardon my intrusion please, posted by 64bowtie on December 6, 2004, at 6:03:56
I still think there's a problem here with cause and effect. But I also know that trying to persuade someone to my point of view is usually a wasted effort. :)
It's largely academic in my particular case anyway. I seldom get that sort of depression. I usually get the jumping out of my skin sort, and that coincides nicely with curiosity.
No need to self flagellate, Rod.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could all experience being inside each other for just a little while so that these misunderstandings can be avoided?
Posted by 64bowtie on December 7, 2004, at 2:33:56
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2004, at 19:21:57
(((Dinah))),
> I still think there's a problem here with cause and effect. But I also know that trying to persuade someone to my point of view is usually a wasted effort. :)
<<< Some things don't mesh till the 3rd lap around.... Keep trying, please... I am listening and learning....
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if we could all experience being inside each other's skin for just a little while so that these misunderstandings can be avoided?<<< It would be nice, ...and convenient, I'm certain...
Rod
PS: progress not perfection... implies that some things are gonna take longer...
Posted by 64bowtie on December 7, 2004, at 2:44:23
In reply to Re: Why do I feel I'm being punished by you? » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on December 6, 2004, at 18:55:11
Gabbi wrote >
> ...so I think this will most likely be my last post.><<< Hmmmm..... I am listening and learning. May I invite you to listen and learn with me in this safe environment for listening and learning? Picture me holding out my hand encouraging you to be here with me? We will be listening and learning, and participating because we want to, and because we can. Won't you join me here?
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on December 7, 2004, at 2:55:05
In reply to Re: Why do I feel I'm being punished by you? » Gabbix2, posted by 64bowtie on December 7, 2004, at 2:44:23
Gabbi, my question to you...
Why do I feel I'm being punished by you? ...is a rhetorical meant to evoke thought, I thought.
You do accuse me of saying and meaning things I don't ever say or mean. I'm willing to keep reading your posts anyway. No harm no foul.
Rod
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 7, 2004, at 12:36:04
In reply to Re: Why do I feel I'm being punished by you? » Gabbix2, posted by 64bowtie on December 7, 2004, at 2:44:23
>We will be listening and learning, and participating because we want to, and because we can. Won't you join me here?
>
> Rod
>
Posted by Fractal on December 9, 2004, at 16:56:36
In reply to ...our spaceship for discovery..., posted by 64bowtie on December 4, 2004, at 14:17:48
I don't completely agree that everything said applies to everyone, but I certainly feel that curiousity is important, when one is curious about the right things at the right times.
When I am sad, if I want to know how to be better, that's good curiousity.
When I am sad, if I am curious about something that could hurt me, that's not healthy curiousity.
First I think we need to know how to deal with new information, (which is information itself), and then proceed. If I really want to know something, am I emotionally prepared to know it?
"The important thing is to not stop questioning. Curiousity has its own reason for existing." -Albert Einstein
Posted by Fractal on December 9, 2004, at 17:08:36
In reply to Re: our spaceship for discovery... » 64bowtie, posted by Gabbix2 on December 5, 2004, at 17:14:30
> > > It requires thinking, and thinking requires curiousity.
This may seem semantical to some... I guess I have this overwhelming need for mathematical accuracy in everything, I see most things as math...I would say Curiousity requires thinking, not vice versa. It's similar to saying a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.
Perhaps no one really cares which one requires the other... I keep thinking that if somehow we (all people in general) can get our logic straight when it comes to our own thoughts and emotions... we'll be able to deal with problems and prevent them a lot better. But the human brain is so complex, I wouldn't doubt that the logic behind emotion and thoughts become extremely complex as well...
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.