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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:56:52
One thing I find interesting about this board is the way different Ts approach boundaries. I have come to realize that my T has much stricter boundaries than others. I understand that the boundaries are important for my protection but I struggle with them constantly. We have had many arguments about his refusal to cross the boundaries and it is one of the things that cause me problems in my analysis. It isn't just because he is an anlyst, because he was the same when I was in therapy with him before we started the analysis and he tells me that he approaches all of his patients the same way. Below I have listed some of the things he does to keep the boundaries. I am interested in how they differ from what other Ts do.
He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress.
He would never call to check on me, even if I had had a very difficult session or was in obvious distress. We had an argument about this once, and he implied that he would not call and check on me even if I were in one of my suicidal periods. I have promised that I would call him before I hurt myself and he said that he trusts that I would do that. I'm not sure I believe him on that one (that he wouldn't call), so I personally think he would.
He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.
He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.
He seldom carries thoughts or topics from one session to the next, he waits for me to do that. Once in a while he will start a session with thoughts from a previous one, but they are rare.
There is more, but these are the things that stick out for me right now. On the flip side of the above, he will try very hard to add a session if I tell him I want one, even if he has to stay past his usual leaving hour to do so. He always returns calls promptly, usually within an hour or two. He will answer any question I have about him as honestly and truthfully as he can. So he's great, but has a different definition of boundaries than many other Ts.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 16:24:35
In reply to Boundaries (may trigger), posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:56:52
Mine sounds about the same. Except for using more self disclosure.
> He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress.
Mine has learned that in the past, I've sometimes been unwilling to ask for another session even if I want one (because being told no would hurt), and I hint about it. So now if he thinks there's a chance I'm hinting, and if he has the time available, he'll ask. At the same time, I've gotten better about asking.
>
> He would never call to check on me, even if I had had a very difficult session or was in obvious distress.Absolutely he wouldn't. When I've discussed other people's therapists he actually said he never would. He doesn't even return my calls unless I specifically say he should. If I leave open a maybe, he doesn't. Well, that's actually probably flexible. Sometimes if he thinks I might be upset, he'll return a call even if I don't ask him to or he'll call me if I called his machine and hung up. But there's no pattern to when he will and when he won't to my eyes. It must have to do more with him.
>
> He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.Yes, mine does. He uses himself in examples sometimes, and I often find it useful because it makes what he says less authoritative.
>
> He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.Mine doesn't seem to have strong feelings on that. He strongly believes it's my therapy, so he'll wait for me to start because he thinks it's my responsibility to guide the therapy. But if I seem at a loss, or if I am chit-chatting, he might ask how something specific has been going. Sometimes I just give a brief answer and move to other things, but it seems to jump start me.
>
> He seldom carries thoughts or topics from one session to the next, he waits for me to do that. Once in a while he will start a session with thoughts from a previous one, but they are rare.Mine will sometimes start ask about a between session call. But he usually forces me to pick topics. It's not that he doesn't remember. He's gotten really good about remembering. And sometimes he'll tie something I said this session into something I've said recently. But he never says "Last time we were talking about...". I often do.
>
> There is more, but these are the things that stick out for me right now. On the flip side of the above, he will try very hard to add a session if I tell him I want one, even if he has to stay past his usual leaving hour to do so. He always returns calls promptly, usually within an hour or two. He will answer any question I have about him as honestly and truthfully as he can. So he's great, but has a different definition of boundaries than many other Ts.
Mine too. I'm pretty cynical about the adding sessions part, but he seems to believe that I should see it as a sign of caring.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 19:38:58
In reply to Boundaries (may trigger), posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:56:52
>> I understand that the boundaries are important for my protection but I struggle with them constantly.
Boundaries are difficult to deal with; when they are strict, we want to tear them down. But when they're more blurred, we sometimes want/need them to be more structured.
>> He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress.My T would, if I asked her, I think. At one point she suggested I see her twice per week, which I did for a while (actually, I think I need more support right now and would prefer to go back to twice a week, but do I ask her? No. Instead, I try to send her messages so she'll think I need them and bring it up....*sigh*). I sort of wonder why your T wouldn't give you an extra session if you needed one....I guess I don't see how that would be crossing boundaries (unless he's afraid it would foster a dependence on him?).
At the end of this post, though, you said that your T would add an extra session if you asked...so maybe he's trying to get you to be a more active participant and learn to ask for what you need, rather than him doing it for you (T's can be sneaky that way. ;-)
>
>> He would never call to check on me, even if I had had a very difficult session or was in obvious distress. I have promised that I would call him before I hurt myself and he said that he trusts that I would do that. I'm not sure I believe him on that one (that he wouldn't call), so I personally think he would.Again, I guess I don't see how a phone call to someone in distress is crossing a boundary (unless, again, he doesn't want it to become a dependence on him), but since he does trust that you would call him if you were in crisis (would you?!), then I guess I can see how he would say what he did. I also think it might be a bit dangerous that you think he would call if he says he wouldn't...if he did, great, but what if he didn't and you needed him to? Would you call him? Or would you suffer and maybe jeopardize your safety?
>
>> He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.I know most T's don't, from what I've read and heard. Mine does. I've never asked her any personal questions (she's asked me to ask her smething about herself, but I was so embarrassed and was so afraid of asking something inappropriate that I couldn't do it). There is one thing I want to ask her, but I'm waiting for the right time, and I think she'd tell me (she's brought it up herself at various times but hasn't gone into detail) but who knows. I like that my T self-discloses, because it makes it a bit more balanced and less like I'm spilling my guts to a wall. It also personalizes and humanizes her more, which makes it easier to talk to her, in turn.
>
>> He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.Oh, cripes, if my T did this we'd literally NEVER talk. I have such a hard time verbalizing....I could easily sit there for the whole hour and not say anything (it drives her nuts, though*lol*). She's a HUGE talker.....sometimes it's hard, b/c she'll start to ramble and then I'm not sure how to respond to her, but she's very good at starting the session and asking questions when I get stuck/quiet.
>
>> He seldom carries thoughts or topics from one session to the next, he waits for me to do that. Once in a while he will start a session with thoughts from a previous one, but they are rare.Hm, my T doesn't do this too much either, but that just might be her style or technique. Sometimes I wish she'd keep things more structured, at least so I'd know what to expect when I walk in every week. But, then again, if I took more charge of things and spoke more, then I could do it instead of wishing she would.
Remember, though, that we ALL have some sort of boundaries in most of our relationships (and others with us), whether we are aware of them or not.
Posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 20:30:54
In reply to Re: Boundaries (may trigger) » lucy stone, posted by shrinking violet on August 14, 2004, at 19:38:58
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> >> He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress.
>
> My T would, if I asked her, I think. At one point she suggested I see her twice per week, which I did for a while (actually, I think I need more support right now and would prefer to go back to twice a week, but do I ask her? No. Instead, I try to send her messages so she'll think I need them and bring it up....*sigh*). I sort of wonder why your T wouldn't give you an extra session if you needed one....I guess I don't see how that would be crossing boundaries (unless he's afraid it would foster a dependence on him?).
>I can see that I wasn't clear on this. HE would never suggest that I add a session, but if I ask for an extra he will do his best to see me. I am doing an analysis, though, so I already see him 4x per week. If he or I need to cancel a one of more sessions I am usually OK with it, but if I want all 4 he will do what he can.
> > >
> >> >
> Again, I guess I don't see how a phone call to someone in distress is crossing a boundary (unless, again, he doesn't want it to become a dependence on him), but since he does trust that you would call him if you were in crisis (would you?!), then I guess I can see how he would say what he did. I also think it might be a bit dangerous that you think he would call if he says he wouldn't...if he did, great, but what if he didn't and you needed him to? Would you call him? Or would you suffer and maybe jeopardize your safety?
> >I think he wouldn't call because he wants me to be in charge of my therapy. I also think it may be because I am always pushing at the boundaries and he thinks it would encourage me to push for him to initiate more contact. I think that I would call him if I were seriously in danger but I am not 100% sure. I tell him that if I were acting on my suicidal ideations why would I call? My aim would be to carry out my plans. Sometimes I want to kill myself not because I don't want to live anymore but to punish the people who enrage me. Sometimes that person is him. He thinks I use threats of self harm to manipulate him and it is true I sometimes do. If he were to call and check on me it would encourage me in my manipulation. It's a complicated issue for us.
> >> He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.
>
> I know most T's don't, from what I've read and heard. Mine does. I've never asked her any personal questions (she's asked me to ask her smething about herself, but I was so embarrassed and was so afraid of asking something inappropriate that I couldn't do it). There is one thing I want to ask her, but I'm waiting for the right time, and I think she'd tell me (she's brought it up herself at various times but hasn't gone into detail) but who knows. I like that my T self-discloses, because it makes it a bit more balanced and less like I'm spilling my guts to a wall. It also personalizes and humanizes her more, which makes it easier to talk to her, in turn.
> >
I think for me it is better that he doesn't self disclose. Sometimes when I ask him about himself the answers are not what I want to hear and I wish I hadn't asked. He says that the issue would come up in sooner or later in another way, but I have become very cautious in what I ask.> >> He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.
>
> Oh, cripes, if my T did this we'd literally NEVER talk. I have such a hard time verbalizing....I could easily sit there for the whole hour and not say anything (it drives her nuts, though*lol*). She's a HUGE talker.....sometimes it's hard, b/c she'll start to ramble and then I'm not sure how to respond to her, but she's very good at starting the session and asking questions when I get stuck/quiet.
> >I have had sessions where I didn't talk or talked very little and it was agonizing to me. He wants me to talk about what is on my mind and says that only I know what that is. An analysis is somewhat different from regular therapy in this regard, but he also never initiated when I was in conventional therapy.
>
Posted by gardenergirl on August 14, 2004, at 22:19:59
In reply to Boundaries (may trigger), posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:56:52
I think my T is fairly similar to yours. I am not in analysis, but he has shown some analytical bent before. I suppose I could ask about his training, but you know, I never did.
Also, some T's, particularly those that practice with a psychodynamic approach, value what's called the "therapeutic frame". This includes using the same therapy room, same length of sessions, even same day and time if possible, keeping frequency the same, maintaining consistency about "rules" such as phone calls, etc. This way, the therapy is the same on all the external stuff having to do with the therapy itself. It keeps the therapy from being "contaminated" by external stuff. Like meeting in a different room than usual might feel weird. Sometimes allowing another session or going over and sometimes not would be confusing, and the client might wonder what was significant about one time versus another, when maybe it was nothing...Other T's aren't so concerned with this.
> > He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress.
I have left in great distress, and he looked sympathetic, and sometimes tries to lighten the mood a bit, but he has never suggested another session. I have called him before to ask to move up a session due to a crisis, and he was okay with that. He's always very accomdating with the schedule.
>
> He would never call to check on me, even if I had had a very difficult session or was in obvious distress.We've never talked about this. I have never been suicidal and I guess I've never appeared fragile enough to warrant a call. I wonder what he would do? I suspect he wouldn't call.
> He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.He does do this occasionally. Sometimes it's about his analysis experience, once he told me his dissertation experience. Funny, once I was talking about a new plant I found at a nursery, and it must be a kind he collects, because he totally broke the frame and said abruptly and excitedly "what color flowers does that one have?" When I later gave him the insert, he appeared to have forgotten it. Oh, and he told me he gardens too.
I have also found out a couple of things from other people. I usually don't like to hear this stuff. I suppose it's ingrained in my head that he should be a blank slate. Or perhaps it is a way to protect myself from getting too attached?
>
> He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.Yep, never says anything, just nods. If I say hello, he says hello. One time he started with some non-therapy related business (a mix-up where he got a letter that was about my client...talk about weird. But there is the health and counseling center and a psych. center on my campus, and his student has the same first name as I do. And incidentally, is a classmate of mine...small world).
>
> He seldom carries thoughts or topics from one session to the next, he waits for me to do that.Nope he doesn't do this either. I think one time when something similar came up he reminded me of how it was similar, but otherwise, they are stand alone sessions.
That's all, I guess.
gg
Posted by mair on August 14, 2004, at 22:47:50
In reply to Boundaries (may trigger), posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:56:52
>" He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress."I'm not so sure my T would either, although the one time I actually called her at home, she did encourage me to come in the next day. My last T would more than encourage me - he'd just say he wanted to see me, like maybe the next day, and I never really challenged that at all. I think my current T's hours are a little more circumscribed.
>
> "He would never call to check on me, even if I had had a very difficult session or was in obvious distress. We had an argument about this once, and he implied that he would not call and check on me even if I were in one of my suicidal periods. I have promised that I would call him before I hurt myself and he said that he trusts that I would do that. I'm not sure I believe him on that one (that he wouldn't call), so I personally think he would."Again, I'm not so sure my current T would either, although my last T did on several occasions, including one time from a rest stop on the Maine Turnpike. His reasoning was that he knew I would rarely initiate contact even in moments of distress. My T just says she trusts me to call her if I need to, although I think that trust is a little misplaced.
>
> He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.My therapist self-discloses about some things where she thinks it would help - like we'll compare notes on issues with our children or she used to talk alot about how she balanced work/home, when that was more of an issue for me. I know an enormous amount about her because I discovered one day that her husband had written a book which had a ton of stuff in it about his home life and his relationship with her. This really puts things on a different plane - I don't think she'd be anywhere near as open if I didn't already have this trove of knowledge.
>
> He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.Well my T tries to initiate things less than she used to because she decided that I'd follow her lead and then not talk about things that really were on my mind.
>
> He seldom carries thoughts or topics from one session to the next, he waits for me to do that. Once in a while he will start a session with thoughts from a previous one, but they are rare.Actually my T does this alot although she usually won't jump in until she makes sure there is nothing I'd rather talk about. And if she didn't initiate things, I might never talk. She does jump in too soon sometimes when I'm struggling, and I've discovered, somewhat to my chagrin, that when she attempts to finish my sentences, she rarely guesses right, about what I was thinking. It makes me feel sometimes that maybe she doesn't understand me at all, or at least, that she grasps too quickly for the obvious and easy explanation when things may be more complicated.
>I'm not sure how much this has to do with boundaries other than the self-disclosure issues. I think it sounds like your analyst wants you to direct things. This is all well and good, but sometimes i really need my Therapist to put things into context for me so I can see some structure. I've told her that it's not always so important that I see a future, as long as she does. It's really helpful for me when she periodically sums things up and explains where she's trying to get with me.
Mair
Posted by Klokka on August 15, 2004, at 21:17:18
In reply to Boundaries (may trigger), posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:56:52
My pdoc seems to be about the same, for the most part.
> He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress.I'm not sure if this a matter of can't or won't, but that would never happen with mine, either.
> He would never call to check on me, even if I had had a very difficult session or was in obvious distress. We had an argument about this once, and he implied that he would not call and check on me even if I were in one of my suicidal periods. I have promised that I would call him before I hurt myself and he said that he trusts that I would do that. I'm not sure I believe him on that one (that he wouldn't call), so I personally think he would.
I don't know whether he would do that, but I really doubt it.
> He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.
For the most part mine doesn't either, but will make the occasional comment. He did end up saying quite a bit about being raised Catholic one session when we were talking about theology, though. (It came up because of a question he asked about my faith which required more than a little explanation.)
> He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.
My pdoc is a bit different in this respect, because I don't tend to bring things up very easily. Usually "How are you?" or some questions about any recent/upcoming significant events are enough to start me talking, but if that doesn't work he will usually bring something up. I did make it clear from the outset that I had a lot of trouble with finding things to say and might not come up with anything even if it meant sitting in silence for the entire time, though.
> He seldom carries thoughts or topics from one session to the next, he waits for me to do that. Once in a while he will start a session with thoughts from a previous one, but they are rare.
My pdoc tends to link a session's topic with recent ones if there is a connection. Probably a good thing, because I couldn't see things like that if my life depended on it.
> There is more, but these are the things that stick out for me right now. On the flip side of the above, he will try very hard to add a session if I tell him I want one, even if he has to stay past his usual leaving hour to do so. He always returns calls promptly, usually within an hour or two. He will answer any question I have about him as honestly and truthfully as he can. So he's great, but has a different definition of boundaries than many other Ts.
Mine doesn't seem like he would be willing to add sessions, but that very well may be because he seems to have a very packed schedule and I don't pay for sessions (healthcare system covers it.) He will sometimes answer phone calls promptly, but it depends on timing. I've learned that I will usually have to wait until the afternoon to hear from him. I haven't asked him anything about himself, so I don't know how he would answer. On the other hand, even though his schedule is difficult to work with, he does seem quite willing to make things work out as much as possible, tends to stay late if necessary when something unforeseen results in an appointment being unworkable, and often schedules tentative appointments when on call (obviously these get cancelled if he's needed at the time, but it's better than nothing.) I think that's the only thing which has kept me from going completely crazy with worry over scheduling my college courses - thirty hours per week leaves little room for appointments.
Posted by thewrite1 on August 16, 2004, at 23:11:33
In reply to Boundaries (may trigger), posted by lucy stone on August 14, 2004, at 15:56:52
> He would never encourage me to add an extra session, even if I were in great distress.
There have been times when I was dealing with some really hard stuff my T asked me to come in for an extra session. I wasn't open to it because I was concerned about developing a dependency. Well, that happened anyway, but she doesn't ask about extra sessions anymore. It hasn't happened, but if I felt I needed one, I'd ask and she would try to make time for that.
> He would never call to check on me, even if I had had a very difficult session or was in obvious distress.
My T would never just call to check on me. There's been numerous times when I left and I knew she was concerned, but she's never called. Once I called her after a rough session and she was like, "oh, I was going to call you." I don't believe that she was because it wouldn't be like her, so I don't know why she said that unless she was just trying to ease my mind about calling.
> He would never volunteers any personal information about himself.
I used to be very curious about my T and would ask her questions. I was careful because I didn't want to make her uncomfortable, but then one day I asked her something and it really blew up in my face. She misunderstood what I was trying to say and it left me feeling like she thought I was trying to take advantage of her or something. I haven't really asked her anything since then. Lately she has talked about herself some. I tend to just take what she puts out there and forget about the rest.
> He very, very seldom initiates the conversation in a session, he waits for me to start.She always does this, even if I don't say anything. If there's something she thinks is important, she'll bring it up session to session, but that's only happened like 3 or 4 times in 3 years.
My T is always really good about calling me back if I call her, though I really don't do it that often. She's really good with scheduling. There's been a couple of times when I couldn't get to her office that she's agreed to do phone sessions with me instead.
Some of the boundaries really bug me, but I know that's because I want to be more to her than I ever will be.
This is the end of the thread.
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