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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
Recently I stepped back from Babble a bit. I used to read every single post on Psychological and Social and Admin (and even the meds board at one time). I found that I was "taking on" other posters problems, feeling responsible for solving them, feeling required to comfort people. I think that in many ways this was a way for me to avoid looking at my own issues - if I was always stressed out about other people's issues then I didn't have the energy to worry about my own, it also worked as a distraction for me.
So I backed away a bit. I still email/IM/Open with posters I have met in the past. I read selected threads. I choose the threads I will read based on the subject line, and often who is posting. I would love to get to know other new posters, but right now in my life I can't do a lot of that. I just don't have the capacity. So maybe I'm being elitist, I prefer to think that I am protecting myself from overload. My email address is well known, I come to Open "often (?)", and I would always read a post if it were directed to me. These are my boundaries right now. My boundaries have been chosen to acknowledge my limits and to encourage Babble to be a positive part of my life.
I think that every poster needs to find their own boundaries. For me, trying to "fix" and "rescue" people wasn't good for me - and it wasn't good for them either. It IS possible to "support" without fixing or rescuing (or bossing). I honestly don't really know how to do that yet. But I have determined that *for me* the first step is to convince myself that it isn't my responsibility (and duty and mandate) to fix and rescue. It will probably take me a while to get used to this change. I'm hoping that, after that, I'll be able to figure out better how to "support" without doing those things.
One important change that I made early on in this process was to decide not to read the admin board. I chose this because reading the admin board was distressing for me. There is a lot of conflict on that board, and conflict is hard for me and makes me want to "solve" it, and then I get mad at myself when I can't. I feel guilty about NOT reading the admin board. I feel that it is important for the Babble community to have a say (or at least have a way to speak) in how things are run here. But for me, right now, watching friends get hurt because they are trying to (dare I say) fix and rescue other posters is something that is too painful. Maybe because I am so scared of being "wrong" and punished myself - maybe that is why it is so hard to watch other people suffer when they are trying so hard to do a "good thing". (Light bulb...) I am handling the guilt of not reading admin better than I was handling the anxiety from reading it. (And this particular point is quite surprising to me - backing away, not acting has never been the way I have done things)
I decided in the beginning of my "backing away" that there were particular subject and particular posters who were especially distressing to me. So even before I backed away in general I did decide to stop reading particular threads. This was incredibly, incredibly hard. The threads I needed to stop reading were the threads where I felt I was "needed" the most. Where I hoped that my "wisdom" would somehow be better than the other 10 posters who were trying to help on that thread. Where I felt the hurting poster's pain vividly. I think that the hardest part for me was realizing (and I still struggle with this daily) that it is NOT MY JOB to save every person who is in distress. (second light bulb - I think I want to save every other person who is in distress because I want someone to want to save ME that much. This is too touchy for me to expound on at this moment...) There ARE times when I can help. There ARE posters who I can help. There ARE situations where my knowledge or experience can make a difference. But, as much as I want to help others, if it is damaging to myself then I really can't do it. So I needed to be more discriminating about when I would and when I wouldn't get involved.
It was (and is) so hard for me to believe that I am not being "bad" or "wrong" to take care of myself.
There are different ways that we can each protect ourselves. For me, picking and choosing what threads I would read has worked (the other part of this is that if I start to read a thread that becomes distressing to me - where I start getting into the "I MUST save this situation, but I don't seem to be helping, so I MUST need to try harder" mode of thinking - I had to learn to STOP reading a thread. This required recognizing the "dangerous" threads and then deciding that protecting myself was MORE important than standing up for my friends. That sounds so awful, and cold and heartless and selfish. And maybe it is. But the alternative was to spend my time "living" other people's stress in addition to my own - somehow that doesn't make much sense either.)
I understand why some posters "fight" for an issue for another poster (either by posting in response to an attacking poster, or by trying to convince Dr. Bob that he needs to act or change the rules). And I understand why people feel that they need to take a break from Babble. What I have done is similar to taking a break, but it isn't as extreme. This lets me still keep in touch - to see and provide support, to ask for support for myself. I guess that what distresses me about people who feel that they have to leave is that it ends up being an all or nothing solution. They get away from the pain, but they also lose the benefit of Babble - and Babble loses the benefit of having them there to support and be supported *when they can*. (For those of you know know me, you know that I am Queen of the Black and White World - and here I am actually advocating Grey. Could be progress.)
I wish that others could assuage their guilt by posting "This thread is distressing me, so I will no longer participate in it. Please know that *I* believe that [state your position briefly]. My compassion for others who are hurting right now continues, but I will need to find another way to give them support." If others felt the need to repond to THIS post, perhaps they could start a new thread which would NOT discuss the *content* of the distressing thread, but would simply be a place where others could support the poster's decision to abandon the distressing thread.
I have learned a lot about this on Babble. And Babble gives me a wonderful opportunity to experiment with alternative ways of dealing with things. I think that one way it does that is that on Babble *I* am not the only person "supporting" someone. I may relate more closely with their particular issue, or I may think that I have the most "wisdom", or I might be closer to a particular poster than others are - but there *are* others who are here to help, so if I can't be the "saver", then someone else will step up to the plate (or, dare I say, perhaps the person doesn't *need* to be saved...). I believe that this is true in the real world, too - but is seems easier to me to learn this on Babble.
This is enough for now. Possible future chapters include "Why protecting ourselves can actually *help* those who are hurting us" and "More about how I'm not the only one in the world who is competent and qualified to save the day" and "Why *saving* people isn't always doing them a favor".
(P.S. This belongs on this board because it has to do with the "process" of becoming healthier. It discusses how I am trying to use the therapeutic aspects of Babble - in the same way that I have discussed trying to use the therapeutic aspects of my Therapy in the past.)
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 10:30:04
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
I am Babble Fallsfall - that is a hotmail account.
Posted by tabitha on June 27, 2004, at 13:59:16
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
good for you falls. It is a thorny issue. You are having good insight, and doing things to take care of yourself.
Did you ever go to CoDa or read codependency movement writings? There's some good stuff there. The main way I do caretaking is by editing myself, avoiding saying or doing things that I think might upset others. I'm not really the 'fix it' type so much. Mine is more passive variety caretaking. It leaves me with a lot of anger, especially when I encounter people who don't seem to edit themselves to avoid upsetting anyone.
I almost went too far with it though-- thinking that any caring or helping was unhealthy. That comes up for me in my group-- I tend to see unhealthy caretaking where nobody else sees it-- including the T. There must be some middle ground. Afer all, if all helping was unhealthy, then the caring professions wouldn't exist. I have a hard time with finding the 'gray area' too. Maybe it's OK to care or help, as long as I don't get invested in the outcome? That's when the anxiety level goes up, when I expect to get a certain outcome that of course I can't control.
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 27, 2004, at 16:35:28
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
Falls - I'm so amazed at your strength! When I read your post, I kept thinking, "I wanna be Falls!" I just don't have the capacity to control myself the way you do. Particularly when I am unwell.
Earlier this year I was in pretty bad shape. And during this time we had some very upsetting posts on one of the boards. I was so messed up by these posts, I literally was not able to go to work some days. My T told me if I couldn't stop reading them, I had to stop viewing Babble all together. Well, of course, I didn't follow his advice for long! I did stop posting for a while, but I kept reading! Duh...like that helped at all.
So, I admire you so SO much Falls! I know I would be healthier if I could stop myself from reading certain posts when I am in a bad place. But, that's when I am least able to manage my behavior. I'm like, who said it, GG? A moth to a flame.
I will try though! Your post inspired me. I have printed it out and will keep it close at hand. When I start wigging out again, I'll re-read it and try to put into practice what you have done. I thank you for sharing your secrets with us! You are a gem of a friend to Babblers!
Emmy
Posted by daisym on June 27, 2004, at 19:02:28
In reply to Re: Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1 » fallsfall, posted by TofuEmmy on June 27, 2004, at 16:35:28
I think I visited Admin 1x. It reminds me too much of trying to fix the governmental system that I work in every day and as a person who is usually the "idea" person, I decided that this was the place that I wanted to be "just" one of those that needed help and gave help on an individual basis. I just couldn't face anymore global, system, right/wrong challenges. I still can't here.
I'm surprised by how sad I get when my posts are not responded to. And I love so much of the advice I get. And I've been in Open in a gosh-darn "talk to me now" crisis, both mine and others. I know when I had my own, it kept me safe for the hour I needed it to. I guess the nurturing I've found out weighs the other stuff. But I'm really selective on what I'll read, when I stop reading and even how I respond.
I wish everyone could find a balance that meets their needs. It frightens me to see some of you who I've come to really look forward to corresponding with say you are close to being done.
At least don't give up on Open, OK?I feel like a little kid clutching a cone while the ice cream that has plopped out is melting on the ground. :(
Posted by rs on June 27, 2004, at 19:59:14
In reply to Re: Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1 » TofuEmmy, posted by daisym on June 27, 2004, at 19:02:28
I am sorry Daisy about how you are feeling. I will be here for you if you need anything. I know I do not post often but its hard no doubt for you. How are you doing? Is therapy going ok for you? Take Care
Posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2004, at 22:26:46
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
Oh my gosh, falls. I just want to give you the biggest hug (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Falls)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
and say thank you for this post. It is inspiring, and speaks directly to things I struggle with as well.
Thank you,
gg
Posted by rs on June 28, 2004, at 5:45:30
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
Falls I care much. Hugs my friend
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2004, at 10:36:10
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
I also think protecting ourselves includes learning as much as possible about the environment we are in.
When I used to be worse with my phobia about vomit, I would scan everywhere I went for people who looked sick, for possible escape routes. I calculated the probability that a given situation (for example, a college party) would yield vomit.
Ignoring posters already identified as causing me distress would only "protect" me from those posters. Identifying the environment, what is considered acceptable behavior by the moderator, what chance is there that I will post something that makes me vulnerable, only to be met with a post that is a suckerpunch to my gut, but considered perfectly acceptable in the environment, is also a useful quality in staying safe.
How much is it safe to disclose? How much can other people hurt me (or others) without consequence? All those things are scoping out the environment.
Discussing arguable civility decisions with the person designated to decide what is civil and what isn't is sort of equivilant to scoping out the escape routes. Is this something I can expect Dr. Bob to take care of? What will happen to me if I take care of it myself? If Dr. Bob refuses to make the environment safe, and I will be punished if I try to protect myself, what do I do with the feelings of impotent rage? Planning those things is planning my escape.
Knowing whether the person I look to as protector will protect the abuser and punish the abused is part of protecting myself. Learning which types of abuse/abusers will be protected is protecting myself.
In middle school, the tormentors were allowed to taunt, but not to hit. Looking to a teacher to stop the vicious taunting was useless. Looking to a teacher to stop physical abuse would have probably been useful, but since the pain was all inflicted with words, that didn't help any. Not only did I not have much chance of dealing with the problem myself, verbally or physically, but I was afraid of getting in trouble if I did, although I longed to. It was good to know these things.
I'm sure others have their own scenarios where abusers were protected and protecting yourself from abuse was punished. And I'm guessing that to many of the people who experienced this, ignoring isn't a viable "safe" option. It wasn't safe then.
Posted by karen_kay on June 29, 2004, at 18:53:21
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
how wonderful of you to share this. thank you for that (being wonderful of course, and sharing too!)
i do feel the same (only admin doesn't scare me. i don't post much there, but i read it often and comment when and if i feel the need to do so) as you. and i also find that babble mimics much of real life, therefore can be a healthy tool to use. that's what i have learned in my time here. i hope i continue to learn more too.
you know, i often find myself saying 'why does this bother me?' or analyzing many of my reactions on many of the posts. i try to figure out why something may strike a chord with me (my personal reasons or issues, not the posters). i hope everyone does the same.
Posted by Jai Narayan on June 29, 2004, at 21:10:16
In reply to (((((falls)))))) » fallsfall, posted by karen_kay on June 29, 2004, at 18:53:21
Thank you for being so clear.
I am a supportive person as well and wonder if I carry the load home with me.
Babble is a special place and the people on it are very close and dear.
It's a little like being in love for the first time....this is my first chat group and I feel fortunate to have found this group.
Your sharing is part of what I find very special about this site. I love the honesty and the depth. You are such a special person with so much heart.
I would honor what ever you felt you needed to do or not do.
Posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 21:15:21
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
This is a beautiful post. Thanks for sharing.;-)
Posted by ghost on June 30, 2004, at 15:37:29
In reply to Re: Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 21:15:21
what does dr. bob think of this? i never read the admin board (i looked at it once and realised it was NOT for me at ALL), but i'm curious to know what dr. bob thinks of the fact that users are leaving for the reasons they are? it seems pretty serious, if you ask me, that people are leaving because of posts on this board. that indicates this isn't a safe, comforting, affirming environment...
just my $0.02
Posted by terrics on July 1, 2004, at 19:02:27
In reply to Protecting ourselves. Chapter 1, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 9:53:26
I am praying that you all do not up and leave. I would miss you all so much. You guys are the best support I have ever had. Most of us are fair and really want to 'listen' and help. terrics
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