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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 14, 2012, at 16:56:29
Hello, all.
So, it seems that extract of flowering quince selectively and potently inhibits the dopamine transporter:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18485464It's being looked into for parkinson's disease, and Chinese medicine uses it for depression. Thoughts on this, or on how to get ahold of such an extract or powder for use in, say, depression or ADD? A selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor that's available for the asking is a rare and possibly useful find.
Posted by Beckett on May 15, 2012, at 3:01:50
In reply to Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor, posted by psychobot5000 on May 14, 2012, at 16:56:29
A fast google search on the Latin name turned this up. I can't vouch for the source, but it's available.
http://www.ktbotanicals.com/chaenomeles-speciosa-sweet-nakai-10x-extract-p-12725.html
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 15, 2012, at 13:58:25
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor, posted by Beckett on May 15, 2012, at 3:01:50
> A fast google search on the Latin name turned this up. I can't vouch for the source, but it's available.
>
> http://www.ktbotanicals.com/chaenomeles-speciosa-sweet-nakai-10x-extract-p-12725.htmlGood find--I hadn't seen that. Thanks!
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 19, 2012, at 21:18:37
In reply to Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor, posted by psychobot5000 on May 14, 2012, at 16:56:29
I am happy to report that Flowering Quince, a putative SELECTIVE dopamine reuptake inhibitor, seems to be psychoactive in humans. Or in me, anyway.
The initial experience after ingesting 2 tsp of flowering quince concentrated extract powder
...appears to include the following:Cognitive clarity
Mental Energy
Slightly greater motivation and interest in various activities
Clarity of the senses (I have reason to believe my mind's sensory processing may be a bit muddled compared to the average individual)
Moderate anxietyIt is possible I took too much--I felt better in the minutes before this substance reached full effect; the powder had a rapid onset, appearing to reach full effect in about 30 minutes.
Initial impression: recommended for ADHD and cognitive troubles, and possible anhedonic, anergic, unmotivated depression. Uncertain if the quince provides any direct mood benefit. Caution in cases of anxiety may be appropriate.
Thanks to Becket for helping me find the stuff.
Plan: Assuming no unpleasant side-effects result, I will keep taking this at lower dosages, in hopes there may, down the line, be some antidepressant effect that develops (I suffer from unipolar depression with cognitive problems).
Posted by SLS on May 20, 2012, at 5:07:42
In reply to Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor, posted by psychobot5000 on May 14, 2012, at 16:56:29
> Hello, all.
>
> So, it seems that extract of flowering quince selectively and potently inhibits the dopamine transporter:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18485464
>
> It's being looked into for parkinson's disease, and Chinese medicine uses it for depression. Thoughts on this, or on how to get ahold of such an extract or powder for use in, say, depression or ADD? A selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor that's available for the asking is a rare and possibly useful find.This is a total guess, but adding desipramine, a NRI TCA, to the Quince might produce a more stable antidepressant response. I am basing this on the therapeutic properties of nominfensine, a DRI/NRI. Once sold under the trade name, Merital, it helped some people who were otherwise TRD. It is the only drug they ever responded to. Unfortunately, it was withdrawn from the market worldwide due to the emergence of a rare occurrence of hemolytic anemia. I get the impression that nomefensine was more effective than amineptine, a selective DRI. Anyway, if the Quince gives you transient improvements - much like amphetamine would - you might think of it more as an augmenter of antidepressants than a core treatment. However, if I were you, I would continue your experiment with Quince monotherapy unless intolerable physical or psychiatric side effects emerge. How long were you thinking of giving it? Six weeks?
While it is on my mind, have you ever tried low-dosage lithium (150 - 450 mg) as an augmenter?
Co-Q10? - allows the body to more effectively utilize ATP energy.
NAC? - produces glutathione, an neural antioxident.
Alpha Lipoic Acid? - produces both of the effects described above.
Deplin (L-methylfolate)? - helps the body manufacture neurotransmitters. It also lowers homocysteine levels to promote cardiovascular health.
Please report the results of your experiment. It would be valuable information.
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on May 20, 2012, at 14:20:03
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor » psychobot5000, posted by SLS on May 20, 2012, at 5:07:42
No insomnia resulting?
There is usually none of that 6 week wait with herbs.
I might get some.
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 20, 2012, at 18:47:03
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor, posted by sigismund on May 20, 2012, at 14:20:03
> No insomnia resulting?
>
> There is usually none of that 6 week wait with herbs.
>
> I might get some.Indeed--there's no wait, at least for the initial effects, which are mostly positive for me.
Hard to say for certain about insomnia. My provisional answer is 'no,' which is to say I did all right last night, though it took until 5am to get to bed (only about two hours later than normal for me). Considering how much trouble I have sleeping on a regular night, and how sensitive I am to pharmaceutical sleep disruption, I call that a win (though it may well prove to be a good idea to dose only in the morning--I'll keep you all updated).
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 20, 2012, at 20:08:42
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor » psychobot5000, posted by SLS on May 20, 2012, at 5:07:42
>
> This is a total guess, but adding desipramine, a NRI TCA, to the Quince might produce a more stable antidepressant response. I am basing this on the therapeutic properties of nominfensine, a DRI/NRI.Hi Scott!
Very interesting idea! Definitely something to keep in mind, though I think I agree that it's something to maybe try a little way down the line, depending on how this agent functions alone. I wonder, though, how well one would actually be able to mimic nomifensine through such a combination--I have the impression that classifications like 'dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor' are really very crude, and tend to obscure the details of how a specific agent functions in the CNS and achieves its actual therapeutic results. All that said, desipramine seems doable in this case, and it's probably a good idea to keep in mind, especially as amineptine, nomifensine and minaprine are all off the damned market.
>Once sold under the trade name, Merital, it [nomifensine] helped some people who were otherwise TRD. It is the only drug they ever responded to.Unfortunately, it was withdrawn from the market worldwide due to the emergence of a rare occurrence of hemolytic anemia. I get the impression that nomefensine was more effective than amineptine, a selective DRI.
>I've gotten that same impression (I've also taken amineptine, and was not really blown away by its effects--though there ought to be a role for it in mental health treatment because of its benign side-effect profile). At times in the past, I've been looking around for something that would help my unipolar depression [probably] associated with dysfunction in dopamine circuits and gotten very frustrated that no one saw fit to leave nomifensine on the market for TRD--perhaps with mandated periodic blood testing for safety.
Interestingly, while sources differ to some extent, amineptine seems to have had some effect on the NA system as well.
> Anyway, if the [Flowering] Quince gives you transient improvements - much like amphetamine would - you might think of it more as an augmenter of antidepressants than a core treatment.>
I think that hypothesis may prove accurate. As of today (which is only day 2), the flowering quince seems to have some of the properties of a mild psychostimulant--I'm more energetic, social, assertive and talkative--though it also has some positive effects on mood and interest that seem distinct from anything I get from methylphenidate and dexedrine or adderall. Anyway, I will probably keep taking this for at least 4 weeks, and certainly keep you and anyone else interested updated in this space, though it may be a few days before I next update--I want to get a better sense of appropriate dosing, as well as take some time to get a sense of its effects over the course of a few days at least, and without complications like alcohol (not used to being in such a good mood, I celebrated a bit).
> However, if I were you, I would continue your experiment with Quince monotherapy unless intolerable physical or psychiatric side effects emerge. How long were you thinking of giving it? Six weeks?
>
> While it is on my mind, have you ever tried low-dosage lithium (150 - 450 mg) as an augmenter?
>I have tried lithium, some years ago--I don't remember the dosage--and it didn't seem to do anything for me, unfortunately, other than sort of flatten out my mood and make me thirsty.
> Co-Q10? - allows the body to more effectively utilize ATP energy.
>
> NAC? - produces glutathione, an neural antioxident.
>
> Alpha Lipoic Acid? - produces both of the effects described above.
>
> Deplin (L-methylfolate)? - helps the body manufacture neurotransmitters. It also lowers homocysteine levels to promote cardiovascular health.
>Hmm. I may have tried the first two: Co-Q10 and NAC--it's been years since I tried such alternative methods, as they didn't seem to do anything for me, and I don't remember them well any more. Was there a particular reason you were wondering?
> Please report the results of your experiment. It would be valuable information.
>
>Will do!
Thanks for your suggestions and insight,
-Pb
Posted by sigismund on May 21, 2012, at 6:26:41
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor, posted by psychobot5000 on May 20, 2012, at 20:08:42
r alpha lipoic acid (300mg, I think) caused an improvement in the day, with insomnia or lighter than usual sleep that night.
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 29, 2012, at 16:47:19
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor » psychobot5000, posted by SLS on May 20, 2012, at 5:07:42
Hi all,
Had a moment, so I thought Id do an update on my continuing my experiment with powdered concentrate of flowering quince (not the same as normal quince, which is a related plant).
Short summary: flowering quince appears to contain a useful agent for boosting mood and attention, but some caution regarding its use is required, largely because of cardiac side-effects typical of stimulants. I recommend those who take it as an antidepressant adjunct or ADD treatment stay aware of both heart-rate and blood-pressure for the first few weeks or months. Nevertheless, keep in mind that its side-effects (and, for me, its action) are favorable in many respects in comparison to those of many drugs.
So:
Flowering quince is indeed useful for me for mood and attention. However, as mentioned above, it seems to have the properties of a psychostimulant, not an antidepressant. I will explain what I mean by this.I recently trialed desipramine, a tricyclic antidepressant with qualities broadly similar to those of flowering quince, which is to say, they both block the reuptake of catecholamine neurotransmitters as their primary actiondopamine for flowering quince, and norepinephrine for desipramine. Though superficially somewhat similar, though, their actions on the CNS seem different. There is some initial similarity at firstboth have some positive effects on attention and focus. However, at first desipramine has no positive effect on mood. After several days, though, ones mood begins to lift. After a delay, one becomes happier, and stays that way (though I experienced some typical antidepressant side-effects, including anxiety and flattened affect).
Quince is different. Positive effects on mood start to occur, say, 20 minutes after ingesting it. The effects are immediate and dramatic, but do not increase with time. In fact, they tend to decrease somewhat, as tolerance develops (the same thing tends to happen with stimulants like amphetamine or methylphenidate/Ritalin/concerta). However, some positive effect remains, for me, after more than a week, and shows no signs of going away. These positive effects include increased interest in things and ability to react positively to events around me, as well as increased concentration. Also, in contrast to desipramine and many other antidepressants (but like amineptine), flowering quince appears to be somewhat prosexual. Essentially, in all ways Im aware of, flowering quince fits the profile of an effective psychostimulantwhich means, as Scott suggested above, that its probably most useful, for depressives, particularly those with problems with focus, motivation, psychomotor retardation, etc, as an adjunct, not as a primary antidepressant.
Concerns and notes about quince:
It must be taken WITH food. From my experience, I do not believe it is absorbed in significant quantities when taken on an empty stomach.
Appropriate dosing of the powdered concentrate seems to start at about ½ tsp per day, taken in the morning. Doses above 1 tsp seem to cause too many side-effects.
Negative side-effects can include anxiety, sleeplessness, and increased heart-rate and blood-pressure. The last of these is of most concern. While the sleeplessness is not as bad (for me) as with similar drugs, I find that flowering quince increases my resting heart-rate from about 70 beats per minute to somewhere in the 80s (and initially as high as 110). While my heart-rate has come down somewhat from the initial peaks, due presumably to tolerance, it is still a concern and a limiting factor. Those with blood-pressure, arrhythmias or rapid heart-rate should be especially careful when considering this substance. I have not checked my own blood-pressure during the course of this trialit is normally too low to be of any concern, even if the substance caused a very substantial increasebut others would do well to be aware of it. Increases in blood-pressure and cardiac output (i.e. heart-rate) can be dangerous, or hazardous to long-term health, so be wary.
I will continue the experiment. The quince is useful, but the amount I can take is limited by anxiety, sleeplessness, and heart-rate. Benzodiazepines help, so far, with the anxiety and sleeplessness, but heart-rate is still an issue. That said, the help this agent gives me is of fundamental importance to my anhedonic depression with presumed dysfunction in dopamine circuits. I hope others may find it useful as well.
I will post again. So far, I prefer this substance to amphetamine, methylphenidate, amineptine, wellbutrin, and tricyclic antidepressants, and most others, whether or not it has the power (as it were) of traditional stimulants.
-Psychobot5000
Posted by b2chica on June 22, 2012, at 13:23:18
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: DARI (update), posted by psychobot5000 on May 29, 2012, at 16:47:19
Hi
are you still taking the flowering quince?
how is it going?i'm on:
pristiq
adderall
gabapentin
perphenazine
and xanax for sleepwould this be something i could try? or do you think the heart arrythmias could be a problem with what i'm already on?
kinda wondering also how long it lasts if you take the quince in the am? all day or only for a few hours? is it cumulative, so if you stop will you still feel effects for a few days or does it stop immediately?thanks so much
b2c.
Posted by psychobot5000 on June 22, 2012, at 16:51:10
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: DARI (update), posted by b2chica on June 22, 2012, at 13:23:18
> Hi
> are you still taking the flowering quince?
> how is it going?
>Hi B2c,
I've been intending to update for a bit, and your questions all seem relevant, so I'll try to answer them.
> i'm on:
>
> would this be something i could try? or do you think the heart arrythmias could be a problem with what i'm already on?
>I guess my answer would be that I think the arrhythmias -could- be a problem, so some degree of caution in dosing is probably a good idea (i.e. take a little and check your heart-rate and, possibly, blood-pressure). That said, most or all of my tachycardia has now disappeared, and I am no longer even completely certain that it was caused by the flowering quince. Beyond that, I'm fairly sensitive to heart-rate increase from catecholaminergic medications. It's my guess this wouldn't be a problem for most people. My guess: just keep an eye on it at first, and consult your doctor before taking it if you have any heart problems. I think the flowering quince / sweet nakai / mu gua might be milder on your heart than the adderall you already take.
> kinda wondering also how long it lasts if you take the quince in the am? all day or only for a few hours? is it cumulative, so if you stop will you still feel effects for a few days or does it stop immediately?
>I am uncertain of the half-life. I find there is a mood and concentration boost that lasts only a few hours, but other benefits seem to last for much longer (i.e. about a day). It's also true that, the first time I took it (it was a fairly large dose, in retrospect), my heart-rate seemed to stay elevated for about two to four days (the return to normal was gradual). In short, it is not clear what its half-life is or how long it actually lasts, but I suspect a half-life of somewhat more than a day, with substantial tolerance to parts of its effects occurring within a few hours after each dose (dopaminergic down-regulation?). It would be helpful on this score (length of effect) if others could take it and share their experiences as well.
I know of one other, a friend (not mentally ill), who took the stuff. She took only one dose, but it seemed to give her energy and a certain positive buzz for a few hours (this is what I observed, and she later casually told me that it seemed to have 'worked'), without disrupting her sleep or anything. It would have been interesting to know whether a second, third or twentieth doses would do the same. In my case, I seem to develop some tolerance to its positive effects unless I give it a few days off.
Overall, I consider the herb moderately useful, possibly better as an occasional use thing. Beware taking too much if you have anxiety issues, as I fear it may have temporarily exacerbated mine. It does not seem to be particularly problematic for sleep, unless you take doses larger than I am able to tolerate.
Pb5000
Posted by NutritionNerd676 on September 6, 2012, at 14:03:08
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: DARI (update) » b2chica, posted by psychobot5000 on June 22, 2012, at 16:51:10
I'm studying Chinese medicine on my own and I've noticed that TCM Kidney tonics tend to be good for anxiety. Research tends to show them as dopaminergic or adrenaline boosting.
The Chinese rarely give an herb in single dosage form. Usually there are compatible pairs which address the main complaint and then other herb pairs are added to combat side effects and direct the herb to the proper location. Sometimes minerals are added as well.
Chinese Quince is called "Mu gua" - if you google that term and look at formulas which contain it you may be able to find something which would be less of a problem for you. Don't be put off by the language they use, it may sound simplistic, primitive or backwards, but it is very powerful medicine. It is best used as intended rather than extracted singly.
I have learned some lessons regarding herbs the hard way.
Posted by Larkypants on August 16, 2013, at 18:47:24
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: dopamine reuptake inhibitor » psychobot5000, posted by SLS on May 20, 2012, at 5:07:42
I take a low dose of anti-psychotic, and feel...nothing most of the time, when I do, it's short lived and difficult to express. Taking 3/4 tsp. 5:1 flowering quince has a mild psychedelic effect, I feel like it counteracts some of the negative symptoms, associated with the meds or my condition I'm not sure. It's subtle, but definitely has an effect. I'm using it with caution, as my meds are being adjusted.
Posted by Uncouth on February 12, 2015, at 11:15:18
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: DARI (update) » b2chica, posted by psychobot5000 on June 22, 2012, at 16:51:10
Hey pb500 do u still take flowering quince? Can u provide an update or post Mortem in your experience?
The only thing that ever truly worked for me was PEA with selegiline but that quickly turned into a destructive addiction.
Can u compare quince to amphetamines, like adderall or vyvanse or desoxyn if you've taken or provigil?
For me the dose of stimulants is important as I easily drift into hyper focus when too high, and it ends up flattening mood and tolerance appears to the pro social and mood effects rather soon with amphetamines, so would love to find something that perhaps dosent
Posted by psychobot5000 on February 12, 2015, at 15:00:24
In reply to Re: Flowering Quince: DARI (update) » psychobot5000, posted by Uncouth on February 12, 2015, at 11:15:18
I no longer take flowering quince, though I recommend others try it. In comparison to other stimulant-like substances, it was a good fit for me (allegedly it's a very pure indirect dopamine agonist, well, a DARI, with very little effect on NA), but it caused tolerance like all the others, and more than small doses caused anxiety I couldn't deal with (I suffer from anxiety, also). I would describe its effects as qualitatively superior, but quantitatively much smaller than ritalin or an amphetamine. It's a good supplement/medication, but you're going to get a pretty modest effect in comparison to the traditional big guns.
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