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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Uncouth on October 1, 2011, at 10:26:22
Hi, what is the latest thinking around mitochondrial supports for depression and bipolar especially? ESP. Coq10? anyone take any good mitochondria formulas? I just ordered pqq new mitochondria support plus take lots of ala and jarrow neurooptimizer supplement.
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 2, 2011, at 23:21:55
In reply to Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by Uncouth on October 1, 2011, at 10:26:22
Hey. All I know is that antioxidants=AWESOME for mental problems, especially ones on the more severe end of the spectrum. They say ("they" being the experts) that the illnesses themselves cause oxidative stress. I agree that intense stress causes problems, but I suspect that the treatments (especially neuroleptics) cause problems.
Good ones I've read about: alpha lipoic acid (some people say the R form is based; most of the studies used the old school stuff); high dose vitamin C; vitamin E; niacinamide; taurine; green tea extract.
Pretty much any antioxidant can seems to be helpful for mental illness. Oh, and I almost forgot: NAC. Definitely try NAC if you're having problems.
Posted by uncouth on October 3, 2011, at 19:23:52
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by Christ_empowered on October 2, 2011, at 23:21:55
I currently take 1800mg of ALA, vitamin c, vitamin e, green tea extract, taurine, 2400mg of NAC. although i just STOPPED curcumin and resveratrol. i will be adding a new supplement, PQQ, and probably will get some CoQ10 this week, or Idebenone, not sure which one.
And I take also L-Theanine, Lithium Orotate, Rhodiola, chromium picolinate, magnesium, zinc, citicoline, acetyl-l-carnitine, phosphatidylserine (these three in Jarrow NeuroOptimizer), fish oil, holy basil as needed, pregnenolone (just started), DLPA and have taken recently but not in the past two weeks grape seed extract
God thats so much. I am trying to get in with a integrative MD Psychiatrist at UCSF in the next few weeks so I can absolve myself of the responsibility for these supplements and just follow instructions from someone I trust. Although it's pretty likely i'll know more about these things than she will :) though not from a a clinical standpoint.
Posted by morgan miller on October 3, 2011, at 20:19:42
In reply to Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by Uncouth on October 1, 2011, at 10:26:22
Methylene Blue-probably your best bet
Uridine-Triacetyluridine
Posted by morgan miller on October 3, 2011, at 20:27:32
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by Christ_empowered on October 2, 2011, at 23:21:55
> Good ones I've read about: alpha lipoic acid (some people say the R form is based; most of the studies used the old school stuff); high dose vitamin C; vitamin E; niacinamide; taurine; green tea extract.
>
> Pretty much any antioxidant can seems to be helpful for mental illness. Oh, and I almost forgot: NAC. Definitely try NAC if you're having problems.
>NAC is good stuff, unfortunately it causes respiratory issues for some people. The problem is, it may clear up mucuous too much. Without mucous, our lungs don't have what they need to keep things clean and fight off the bad guys.
Posted by uncouth on October 3, 2011, at 20:43:42
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by morgan miller on October 3, 2011, at 20:19:42
can you explain why re: methylen and uridine? what are good sources of uridine? whats the rationale?
are we talking like serious serious obvious improvement?
Posted by morgan miller on October 4, 2011, at 23:42:21
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by uncouth on October 3, 2011, at 20:43:42
I would say it's more likely to notice obvious improvement with Methylene Blue than with Uridine. I just order MB from Amazon and will be receiving it in 3 to 5 days. I think I'm going to take about 500 mcg of the stuff, maybe a little less at first. I need to be careful as MB is an MAOI, but the effects appear to be dose dependent.
You may have missed the study posted on the medication board about the use of Methylene Blue in treating bipolar patients. Here it is:
Sh*t I don't know how to copy the link on a MAC. Just google "methylene blue bipolar"
You cannot take CoQ10 with methylene blue, something about their modes of actions interfering with each other. You don't need CoQ10 really anyway if your taking MB. If you want a little extra CoQ10 in your diet eat good sources of fish.
You can take uridine with MB. I believe it's triacetyluridine that is the one you want to take. It's sold as a nutritional supplement.
Morgan
Posted by uncouth on October 5, 2011, at 1:17:13
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by morgan miller on October 4, 2011, at 23:42:21
what about CDPcholine as a uridine precursor? i just bought some CDP choline (citicoline) today, and have used it in the past but have never given it a full trial.
what do you think about PQQ? It' a new supplement that increases mitochondrial biogenesis supposedly!
thanks, please update us daily on your MB experiment!
why not start with a larger dose? didnt the study use MB doses of 300mg? not mcg. MG.
Posted by morgan miller on October 5, 2011, at 22:53:26
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by uncouth on October 5, 2011, at 1:17:13
I believe the study used 15 mgs. Hmm, need to check.
I don't like CPD-choline much, it can cause depressive symptoms. Just get some of Ecological Formulas' triacetyluridine off the internet.
I can't wait for MB to arrive. I started thinking of it today. I really do hope for a noticeable improvement after a few days or so. The only thing I'm not crazy about is having to dose it twice a day. I will start off the first 2 or 3 wks just dosing one time in the morning to see how it goes, but I'm assuming that I will have to go to twice a day dosing like most others do.
PQQ sounds interesting. If MB gives me most of what I need for now, I probably won't be trying PQQ anytime soon. I definitely won't be taking any CoQ10 while on MB.
Morgan
Posted by uncouth on October 5, 2011, at 23:37:49
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by morgan miller on October 5, 2011, at 22:53:26
i was led to believe the amounts of uridine in ' triacetyluridine is typically far too small to be effective. i've seen 25mg capsules; i'm taking 1000mg of Citicoline per day, so i'm probably getting an order of magnitude more uridine. right?
what have you heard regarding effective doses.
i have to say, it could be placebo effect, but i am feeling noticably better today than i felt yesterday. remember though i increased alcar, added pqq, and increased citicoline all on the same day !
Posted by morgan miller on October 6, 2011, at 0:30:44
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by uncouth on October 5, 2011, at 23:37:49
Yeah it's hard to tell what's going on with adding in and raising doses of several things at once. All that matters is you are feeling better at the moment! Hope it continues.
Posted by Franz on October 10, 2011, at 23:01:42
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by morgan miller on October 4, 2011, at 23:42:21
Hi morgan miller, can you please give more details on product and dosing?. 500 mcg/day?
Is this the thread you could not paste?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20110902/msgs/996116.htmlThanks.
Posted by morgan miller on October 11, 2011, at 22:28:19
In reply to methylene blue » morgan miller, posted by Franz on October 10, 2011, at 23:01:42
Hey Franz,
I just got my MB today and started it. I really do think I notice a positive difference. If you have a dropper, 1 drop of the Kordon methylene blue most of us are using is equal to about 1 mg MB. I had an empty dropper bottle that I filled with 1/4 MB and the rest with water. This dilution gives me 250 mcg per drop.
So far I have experienced being more relaxed, having more energy, relief from my muscle issues(better contractions), more motivation due to increased energy, and a warm sort of feeling throughout my body. I'm hoping to experience noticeable enhancement in cognitive function over the next few weeks. I will definitely keep you guys posted.
Man, they really need to develop an extended release/long acting version of this stuff.
I'm not going anywhere near the dose used in the bipolar study-far too risky with MAO inhibition occurring at 15 mg or even much lower doses and interacting with the SSRIs I'm taking(100 mg Zoloft and 2.5 mg Lexapro).
Go to Longecity.org and look in both the supplements and nootropics forums to find threads on MB telling you everything you pretty much could possibly know at this point in time.
Morgan
Posted by uncouth on October 11, 2011, at 22:34:38
In reply to Re: methylene blue, posted by morgan miller on October 11, 2011, at 22:28:19
how does it work, i mean i can look up the scientific abstracts, but in a few sentence,s what makes it special that other mitochondrial energizers etc. can't do...and why do you think it has such quick action.
Posted by morgan miller on October 12, 2011, at 0:41:37
In reply to Re: methylene blue, posted by uncouth on October 11, 2011, at 22:34:38
Hey uncouth, I think those questions would be better answered somewhere imbedded in the threads on Longecity. I do know that MB enhances mitochondrial function far more powerfully than CoQ10.
I took too much today. Twice I've experienced a scattered and slightly agitated stimulation. I will probably end up taking 125 mcg doses at a time in the future. I think the dilution I made this evening is going to give me closer to a 125 mcg dose per drop.
Morgan
Posted by novelagent on March 1, 2012, at 11:29:06
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in, posted by uncouth on October 5, 2011, at 1:17:13
uncouth,
How is CDP Choline treating you? I'm about to take that-- I read clinical trials for cocaine addicts and for schizophrenia where the dose is 1grams twice daily.
I've read reports of it increasing introspective thought... it sounds interesting. The schizophrenia trial is especially interesting- it was galantamine + CDP Choline, 1gram twice daily. One of the few studies done in schizophrenia for cognition in which the cogntive benefits were positive.
> what about CDPcholine as a uridine precursor? i just bought some CDP choline (citicoline) today, and have used it in the past but have never given it a full trial.
>
> what do you think about PQQ? It' a new supplement that increases mitochondrial biogenesis supposedly!
>
> thanks, please update us daily on your MB experiment!
>
> why not start with a larger dose? didnt the study use MB doses of 300mg? not mcg. MG.
Posted by uncouth on March 1, 2012, at 15:13:22
In reply to Re: Coq10 and other mitochondrial support in » uncouth, posted by novelagent on March 1, 2012, at 11:29:06
don't use it anymore as it's supposedly not so hot for people with depression as it increases cholinergic tone, but i do take uridine, which is one of the other reasons to take citicoline, and uridine is great for bipolar depression supposedly...i can't really remember if cap choline did anything for me, but i would definitely consider it again if i had some trouble with dopamine. please post your response. i think the last thing a lot of us need is any MORE introspective thought!
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