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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tomatheus on September 3, 2011, at 16:15:50
Four weeks ago, I began taking a dietary supplement called ATP-20, which is made by Douglas Laboratories. I had read some anecdotal reports from patients were taking the supplement for chronic fatigue syndrome and noticing significant improvements in their energy levels, and I thought that ATP-20 would be worth trying for my chronic, treatment-resistant anergic depression.
Before I start writing about the benefits that I've experienced since I started taking ATP-20, let me first give a brief background on my anergic depression. My symptoms first set in during the spring of 2000 after several months of intense stress and long-term sleep deprivation. Once I finally started getting enough sleep on a regular basis after having partially deprived myself of sleep each day for months, I noticed that I wasn't feeling the same way I was before I went through my stressful, sleep-deprived period. I was mentally and emotionally exhausted, my sleep was no longer refreshing, I slept too much, and my thinking was significantly slowed down. These symptoms persisted, even after I had been practicing good sleep hygiene (once again) for months. Basically, my depressive symptoms were lack of energy, psychomotor retardation, hypersomnia, circadian-rhythm abnormalities, difficulty concentrating, and anhedonia. Over the years, I've been through psychotherapy and have tried many medications for my anergic depression. To make a long story short, the only treatment that ever significantly relieved my anergic depression for more than a few days at a time was the MAOI antidepressant Nardil. However, some of the medications that I've taken have also left me feeling much different than I was before I started taking them, notably lithium, which left me with a tremor and agitation after I stopped taking it, and aminoguanidine, which left me with psychotic symptoms, cognitive impairment, intellectual impairment, and restlessness. My original depressive symptoms still remain, but have been complicated by the additional symptoms that seem to be tied to my use of lithium and aminoguanidine.
Anyway, in addition to having participated in psychotherapy and taken medications, I've also tried a lot of dietary supplements for my anergic depression and for the symptoms that emerged after I took lithium and aminoguanidine, and for the most part, I've had little success with the supplements. I take a few supplements regularly under the supervision of my psychiatrist (in addition to the medication that I take), but the benefits of these supplements are fairly weak. One problem that's emerged with a lot of the supplements that I've tried is that some of them work to a degree on my concentration difficulties and other depressive symptoms for a day, a few days, or at most, a week, and then stop working completely. Fortunately, the ATP-20 that I'm taking doesn't seem to have this problem. If it stops working for me, at least I'll be able to say that I experienced four weeks of significant relief from some of my symptoms on it.
So, what benefits have I noticed from taking ATP-20? For starters, my hypersomnia is less severe than it was before I started taking the supplement. Instead of sleeping 10-11 hours every night, I'm finally sleeping 8-9 hours a night. And now that I've been taking ATP-20 for four weeks, I'm both falling asleep and waking up a few hours earlier than I was before I started the supplement. Another symptom that's improved for me is my concentration. Before I started taking ATP-20, my concentration was so poor that I had difficulty reading short news articles. Now, I'm spending a lot more time reading, and I've even finished off two books in the past four weeks. Finally, my psychomotor retardation is somewhat less severe than it was before I started taking ATP-20. Even though I'm not thinking quite as clearly and quickly as I'd like to, I've noticed some nice improvement in these areas since I've been on ATP-20.
I wouldn't say that my anergic depression is in remission by any means or that I'm not still experiencing substantial impairment from the symptoms that manifested themselves after I took aminoguanidine, but I can say that ATP-20 has significantly improved the quality of my life and that it's given me more symptom relief than any other dietary supplement that I've tried. At this point, I can't say enough good things about ATP-20, but if my situation with the supplement changes, I'll be sure to post an update.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on September 5, 2011, at 15:08:53
In reply to ATP-20: An important part of my treatment, posted by Tomatheus on September 3, 2011, at 16:15:50
Is NADH supposed to increase ATP?
I took NADH once. It was OK. Somewhat dopaminergic? A long time ago now.
ATP would probably be no good for me, since I can't sleep well.
Posted by Tomatheus on September 5, 2011, at 16:30:35
In reply to Re: ATP-20: An important part of my treatment, posted by sigismund on September 5, 2011, at 15:08:53
Sigismund,
Thank you for your reply. I believe that NADH is involved in the biosynthesis of ATP, although I don't understand the biochemistry involved. I too took NADH several years ago, and I remember noticing a reduction in the severity of my depressive symptoms for about a day and then some cognitive impairment (with no antidepressant benefits) after that. My response to ATP-20, of course, has been a lot longer lasting without any cognitive impairment, but it would be hard to say whether or not I would have noticed the same benefits that I'm noticing now from ATP-20 if I would have taken the supplement around the time that I took NADH.
You could be right that ATP might not be a good supplement for you, considering that you have trouble sleeping. As I mentioned in my original post, I sleep less now that I'm taking ATP-20, so if you think such an effect would be detrimental to you, then it might be best to avoid ATP. Then again, I will say that in addition to sleeping less on ATP-20, I also have a little bit less trouble falling asleep than I used to before I started taking the supplement. So, if you're looking to fall asleep at an earlier time than you normally do, then an ATP supplement might actually help (if it affects others in the same way that it affected me), but I think it probably wouldn't be very helpful for those who experience early-morning awakenings.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on September 5, 2011, at 17:32:52
In reply to Re: ATP-20: An important part of my treatment » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on September 5, 2011, at 16:30:35
I used to take aminoguanidine. I think I have heard of other people experiencing adverse effects. Your experience is alarming.
Right now I am taking 200mg Sulbutiamine with breakfast. I don't need any more than that. It'll keep you awake.
Posted by Tomatheus on September 5, 2011, at 18:25:35
In reply to Re: ATP-20: An important part of my treatment » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on September 5, 2011, at 17:32:52
Sigismund,
Sulbutiamine sounds interesting. I might look into it as a potential treatment for my cognitive and intellectual impairment. If you don't mind me asking, what benefits do you experience from taking sulbutiamine?
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on September 6, 2011, at 4:15:31
In reply to Re: ATP-20: An important part of my treatment » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on September 5, 2011, at 18:25:35
The only smart drug type things I have ever warmed to are Hydergine, low dose deprenyl and rhodiola.
They all feel a bit dopaminergic and clean.
Sulbutiamine has a slightly cold feel about which I am ambivalent.
But it could be helpful with cognitive and intellectual impairment.
Hydergine is more my cup of tea.
Ever tried Trivastal? It might be worth bearing in mind. People say bad things about dopamine agonists. I never took it for very long, a couple of months at the most. Civilised stuff.
Posted by Tomatheus on September 6, 2011, at 12:11:34
In reply to Re: ATP-20: An important part of my treatment » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on September 6, 2011, at 4:15:31
Sigismund,
I haven't tried Trivastal. I'm weary about trying a dopamine agonist as part of my treatment because of my psychosis, but then again I haven't had any significant problems with Hydergine, which is not supposed to be good for individuals with psychotic disorders.
I'm sorry to hear about the "cold feel" that you get from Sulbutiamine. It sounds like something that I'd be ambivalent about, too.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on September 12, 2011, at 18:23:07
In reply to Re: ATP-20: An important part of my treatment » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on September 6, 2011, at 12:11:34
The good thing about sulbutiamine is that it does give you mental energy and enable you to be more purposeful, if that is what you need.
Useful PRN, in the morning in low doses, for me at least.
Posted by Tomatheus on September 12, 2011, at 22:42:33
In reply to Re: ATP-20: An important part of my treatment » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on September 12, 2011, at 18:23:07
Thanks, Sigismund. I'll think about giving sulbutiamine a try.
Tomatheus
Posted by Tomatheus on September 18, 2011, at 22:32:00
In reply to ATP-20: An important part of my treatment, posted by Tomatheus on September 3, 2011, at 16:15:50
Well, my decent run with ATP-20 appears to have come to an end. Last Tuesday, I started having more difficulty concentrating again, and I also started having a more difficult time getting out of bed again. The ATP-20 still seems to be doing a little something for both my concentration and my hypersomnia, but I would say that my quality of life is significantly worse than what it was when I was doing reasonably well on the supplement. I now need 9.5 hours of sleep each night instead of eight hours, and my concentration is so far gone that I struggle to read even short news articles. I'm glad that the ATP-20 worked for as long as it did, but it's frustrating that it didn't have longer-lasting benefits.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on September 19, 2011, at 4:19:57
In reply to Update: ATP-20 less effective now, posted by Tomatheus on September 18, 2011, at 22:32:00
Maybe you could cycle it with other things that increase energy in a similar way?
Posted by Tomatheus on September 19, 2011, at 15:17:44
In reply to Re: Update: ATP-20 less effective now » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on September 19, 2011, at 4:19:57
Sigismund,
Thank you for the suggestion. Not too long ago, I tried taking creatine a second time around to see if I could perhaps cycle it with another supplement. The first time I took creatine, its benefits lasted for about a week, but when I took it most recently, I only noticed benefits from the supplement for a day. ATP-20 could be different from creatine and might be worth cycling with another supplement, but it would be hard to say whether or not it would be as effective a second time around as it was during my first month or so on it. I guess the only way for me to find out whether or not cycling ATP-20 with another supplement would work out would be to try it, so maybe I will.
Thanks again for your suggestion,
Tomatheus
Posted by torrid on September 29, 2011, at 19:45:08
In reply to Re: Update: ATP-20 less effective now » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on September 19, 2011, at 15:17:44
I think I was reading how NAC works on depression and read about bioactive whey protien.
Posted by Tomatheus on September 30, 2011, at 23:07:05
In reply to what do you think of bioactive whey protien » Tomatheus, posted by torrid on September 29, 2011, at 19:45:08
Torrid,
I had not thought of trying bioactive whey protein for my anergic depression, and I really knew very little about the health benefits of whey protein before reading your post. Now that I've read your post, I've done a few Web searches on bioactive whey protein, and it sounds like something that might be worth exploring. I know that bioactive whey protein is being studied for the treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome, and I also know that it contains glutathione precursors, so I think that the supplement may potentially be helpful for people suffering from depressive disorders.
Thanks for your post,
Tomatheus
Posted by torrid on October 1, 2011, at 8:12:29
In reply to Re: what do you think of bioactive whey protien » torrid, posted by Tomatheus on September 30, 2011, at 23:07:05
I read that even if it says bioactive you have to make sure is realy is, that kinda put me off but I want to see the price difference between NAC and bioactive whey protein. A high ratio of calcium to magnesium and magnesium defficiency is associated with so much mental and physical illness and I've been useing Magnesium glycinate with B6 and C. It has helped noticely so I'm going futher and now I reduced my dairy intake to almost none. I use goat milk in coffee and goat cheese on my homemade gluten free pizza. I'm wondering if whey protein will fit with my low dairly intake, I just don't know enough to peculate the answer
Posted by sigismund on October 19, 2011, at 8:30:23
In reply to Re: what do you think of bioactive whey protien » torrid, posted by Tomatheus on September 30, 2011, at 23:07:05
Lactoferrin is too expensive, but was useful to me in a particularly difficult stretch of my life.
I plan to revisit it one day.
It felt calming in a good way.
This is the end of the thread.
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